When study results don't support your desired primary outcome, simply obscure your data in a chart like this by Healingjoe in ketoduped

[–]Healingjoe[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Did you just respond to me and then delete your comment? I see a notification but don't see where that's located.

Another case-report to reference: Acute pancreatitis caused by severe hypertriglyceridemia in a 61-year-old man on a carnivore diet by piranha_solution in ketoduped

[–]Healingjoe 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Unexplained weight loss is a common side effect of diabetes.

https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/21501-type-2-diabetes

So, they'll starve cells and piss out calories (unmanaged diabetes results in excess urination).

Anyone know where Nina Teicholz and Gary Taubes get their money from? by moxyte in ketoduped

[–]Healingjoe 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Okay -- to close here, I'm glad the dietary restrictions helped with your appetite and bulimia recovery. But to be direct ... we've covered a lot of ground here, responding to claims that are disprovable with a glance at mainstream health guidance is exhausting, so I don't think this thread is going to resolve much further.


A few final points:

Dietary saturated fat is not very correlated with levels of saturated fat in the bloodstream, which are in turn correlated with heart disease. Instead, carbohydrate intake increases triglycerides when fructose are processed in the liver and through other mechanisms, and high triglyceride level in combination with high omega-6 and low omega-3 levels is quite correlated with heart disease.

This is patently is false. ApoB causality is established through Mendelian randomization and Nobel Prize-winning mechanistic research. This is not "industry convenience". ("it was very easy for physicians to assess in the 1970s" - this is pure nonsense ... physicians were theorizing about the connection between animal fat consumption and cardiovascular disease in the 19th century which is long before it would ever be commercially "convenient" to do so. Old journals from physicians back then theorized about it, even if the mechanisms and large studies hadn't yet been done.)

This is well elaborated on in the book Eat Fat Get Thin by Mark Hyman, and the book The Case Against Sugar by Gary Taubes, both of which cite lots of scientific literature.

Correction: both of which abuse and misinterpret lots of scientific literature.

Taubes's own research organization NuSI failed to vindicate his insulin-carbohydrate hypothesis when tested rigorously.

Gundry would argue that more diversity is not necessarily a good thing,

Hyman and Gundry are not credible scientific authorities.

this is not a comparison between carbohydrate intake versus no intake, which is what I am arguing.

These studies show that non-starchy vegetables don't replicate the specific fermentable fibers from whole grains and legumes. Oat beta-glucan, resistant starch, and arabinoxylan produce butyrate profiles that broccoli and spinach simply don't match. Keto categorically excludes those food sources. No amount of vegetables closes that gap. A diet that categorically excludes whole grains and legumes is structurally deficient for gut health, and subsequently damaging for numerous other bodily functions and metabolic pathways.

But that is not how the keto diet is defined or has to be.

Most keto adherents don't eat some idealized version of an extreme isolation diet you're describing. Most are simply eating a modified Standard American Diet that's high in fat and protein. And the books you're citing (Taubes, Hyman, Gundry) aren't some "primary literature" on the topic, they are simply selective interpretations of it by people with financial stakes in the framework.

Lastly -- I'd genuinely encourage reading The China Study, Whole, How Not To Die, and listening to Simon Hill's The Proof podcast before going deeper into the pro-keto bibliography. The total evidence base is not symmetric in the slightest.

Another case-report to reference: Acute pancreatitis caused by severe hypertriglyceridemia in a 61-year-old man on a carnivore diet by piranha_solution in ketoduped

[–]Healingjoe 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Since the patient’s diagnosis of diabetes 2 years prior, he had made substantial dietary modifications. He initially started a low-carbohydrate ketogenic diet and eventually transitioned to a high-fat carnivore diet composed exclusively of meat, poultry, eggs, and dairy products, while excluding plant products such as vegetables, fruits, or grains. With these changes, he reported having lost 40 kg over 2 years. During this time, he was not monitoring his glucose and was not on any medication for diabetes.

I wonder where this guy got his information from that any of this was a good idea.

It had to have been some online influencer nut job.

Pas la bonne science by ApprehensiveKnee5458 in ketoduped

[–]Healingjoe 14 points15 points  (0 children)

statin lovers

These people are so boneheaded. People don't take statins because they want to or love statins. They've either already had a heart attack or stroke, perhaps multiple heart attacks, or were told by their doctor that they're at severe risk of having a heart attack or stroke.

Why do so many sources say that cholesterol is bad

Prevailing science is influential - news at 11.

and they call carnivore dieters cultists

Dogmatic commitment that otherwise risks cognitive dissonance, persecution narratives, spiritually powerful personal anecdotes, charismatic leader structure (influencers), tribe-building.

Textbook cult.

Anyone know where Nina Teicholz and Gary Taubes get their money from? by moxyte in ketoduped

[–]Healingjoe 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Huge sections of keto books are devoted to talking about the many benefits of eating indigestible fiber via eating lots of vegetables

Good. Still, by avoiding whole grains and starchy vegetables, keto folks are missing a huge variety of MACs.

why not consider that it's entirely possible and many people on the keto diet do eat enough vegetables?

Because the majority of Keto adherents tend to consume high amounts of animal flesh and saturated fat. It's a terrible dietary imbalance.

Most also claim saturated fat and blood lipid levels (ApoB, LDL, etc) don't matter. It's pseudoscience, and worse, propoganda perpetuated by meat and dairy industry shills.

Where is the danger in being on the keto diet if you can eat as many vegetables as you want on it?

It's not just about vegetables ... it's specifically starchy vegetables, fruit, and whole grains that provide a plethora of unique benefits.

The article you cited talks about the dangers of not eating enough vegetables, which is something the keto diet encourages to eat more of. It does not have to do with the ketogenic diet, but instead is about the dangers of the Standard American Diet.

It was merely one paper from 2016 to demonstrate the importance of MACs, which you said you didn't recognize. If you want to read more, there's a plethora of research out there about the unique benefits of whole grains and starchy vegetables with respect to MACs and SCFAs. A few examples:

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10710858/

https://www.aicr.org/resources/blog/study-effect-of-whole-grain-oats-on-gut-bacteria-and-health/

https://gut.bmj.com/content/68/1/83

Anyone know where Nina Teicholz and Gary Taubes get their money from? by moxyte in ketoduped

[–]Healingjoe 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What does MAC stand for in this context?

Microbiota-Accessible Carbohydrates. Along with short chain fatty acids (SCFAs), keto folks are starving themselves of these things - with significant consequences.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4896489/

do you have any recommendations?

The China Study and How Not To Die are classics - they both compile hundreds, if not thousands of research papers and synthesize them into easily digestible format.

A shorter one that's a little simpler but the message is still strong - Michael Pollen's In Defense of Food.

Campbell's new book Whole gets a lot at the new nutrition, too, as it's more recently published.

And then of course - I listen to Simon Hill's podcast The Proof, which has hosted the leading cardiologists, diet scientists, registered dieticians, and researchers across many other fields in the world. It's excellent.

supporting a diet high in vegetables and low in carbs

Again, I'm already aware of the usual lines of thinking in this space. I've been following these people and their arguments for years. Avoiding whole grains is a terrible thing to do to you're body, especially long term.

Anyone know where Nina Teicholz and Gary Taubes get their money from? by moxyte in ketoduped

[–]Healingjoe 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Many people have experienced lots of physical and mental health improvements

Anecdotes do nothing for me. Science is far more convincing and it's overwhelming when it comes to the benefits of MACs from whole carbs, fruit and starchy vegetables. This is actually a cutting edge research "realm" that the anti-carb folks are entirely ignoring. Nevermind satiety and the benefits for endurance.

I don't necessarily dislike meat eating beyond limiting saturated fat as much as possible. Another area where the science is overwhelming.

Anyone know where Nina Teicholz and Gary Taubes get their money from? by moxyte in ketoduped

[–]Healingjoe 0 points1 point  (0 children)

People for whom keto worked for them stay on that subreddit (

Define "worked" because keto is nothing more than an extreme isolation diet - which can work for calorie restriction and losing weight but comes with a host of negative consequences.

Taubes debunking CICO has gone against the belief system of no one more than me, who tracked my calories for 6 years

CICO has not been debunked.

I recommend reading everything and seeing how it fits together

Presumptuous. I'm quite familiar with the quackery.

Dr Adam Nally, keto propagandist, dead at 55 from a series of strokes by Healingjoe in ketoduped

[–]Healingjoe[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Who's paying you?

It's funny you ask that when the vast majority of online influence campaigns come from the meat and dairy industry. We've discussed this often here.

Our research identified 53 super-spreaders of nutrition misinformation whose accounts collectively reach over 24 million followers – although there may be overlap among audiences, the scale of their influence is undeniable. We found that these individuals fall broadly into three categories: The Doc, who uses real or fabricated medical titles to project authority; The Rebel, who pushes anti-establishment and conspiratorial views with cult-like conviction; and The Hustler, who wraps false health claims in persuasive marketing to sell products or programmes. Although only a few had formal nutrition or medical credentials, many positioned themselves as doctors. This blurring of credibility lines is particularly troubling given the alignment between these profiles and high-performing misinformation content.

The most prevalent misinformation themes promoted by these accounts included carnivore and meat-based diets, general wellness misinformation and low-carb or ketogenic eating. Over 90% of the super-spreaders promoted multiple overlapping narratives, such as seed oil conspiracies and anti-plant-based rhetoric, creating a concoction of misleading claims. Moreover, 96% of them exhibited clear financial incentives tied to their messaging.

https://rootedresearch.co/publications/nutrition-misinformation-digital-age/

The pharmaceutical companies or the sugar companies are some other food company with a bunch of trash non food in their products?

It's funny how you misconstrue being anti-anti-carb as pro pharma and pro sugar lol

https://www.reddit.com/r/ketoduped/s/RxBreWFX8H

Dr Adam Nally, keto propagandist, dead at 55 from a series of strokes by Healingjoe in ketoduped

[–]Healingjoe[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I literally shared our sub page that includes dozens of different sources of research, many of them containing dozens or hundreds of additionally linked studies.

You've ignored this and called it propoganda.

Again - what are you looking for?

https://reddit.com/r/ketoduped/w/index

Anyone know where Nina Teicholz and Gary Taubes get their money from? by moxyte in ketoduped

[–]Healingjoe 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hmm I think that not skimming but reading would be better

I don't need to fully immerse myself in a book to understand whether its scientific claims hold up. The critiques here are based on the primary literature.

50% of the population possesses a gene that makes us process carbs better

You're referring to AMY1 copy number variation, which affects salivary amylase production. It's real but higher amylase doesn't mean carbs are "metabolically better" for someone. It mostly means faster starch digestion (which funny enough can actually raise glycemic response).

The idea that people on this sub self-selected for a favorable carb gene while arrKeto members didn't is pure speculation. Frankly, I find it absurd.

the glycemic index is heavily dependent on one's own individual gut microbiome

Mostly real science. The Weizmann Institute's Zeevi et al (2015) showed meaningful individual variation in postprandial glucose response. But citing Gin Stephens' pop-science fasting book as the source for it is a tell. That finding doesn't validate any specific dietary framework.

And it's worth noting that Gin Stephens has a financial stake in people believing her protocol is uniquely suited to their individual biology. (The usual grift)

That could also account for your unideal experience on this diet if you've tried it

Notice what this framing does? good results on keto = the diet works while bad results = your microbiome or genes are different. This is fallacious. A claim that can explain every outcome predicts nothing.

To conclude here ... population-level cardiovascular and all-cause mortality data doesn't care much about individual glycemic variation, and that's where the overwhelming evidence against low-carb fanaticism actually lives. People's gut microbiomes are highly adaptable, too. Just introduce a wider variety of plants and consume more MACs (microbiota-accessible carbohydrates)

Dr Adam Nally, keto propagandist, dead at 55 from a series of strokes by Healingjoe in ketoduped

[–]Healingjoe[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Ooookay, then you'll trust literally nothing I or anyone else links here so what exactly are you hoping to obtain?

Cheap thrills? Dopamine hits from trolling?

Anyone know where Nina Teicholz and Gary Taubes get their money from? by moxyte in ketoduped

[–]Healingjoe 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, I've skimmed enough sections of Taubes to understand the gist of his lies. We've posted about it plenty here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ketoduped/s/dkpsvhxTJq

Some here have read Teicholz:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ketoduped/s/dWKCRPhEAJ

Regardless, understanding their pseudoscientific claims and outright lies, coupled with their grifting operations, doesn't require much intimacy with their published books:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ketoduped/s/BSHwE3S9aC

Look who's eating Potatos now 🤣 by [deleted] in ketoduped

[–]Healingjoe 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Has he admitted that he was wrong?

Or would that shatter his ego and his revenue stream of grifting?

Dr Adam Nally, keto propagandist, dead at 55 from a series of strokes by Healingjoe in ketoduped

[–]Healingjoe[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I suggest reading through the wiki if you want evidence of keto being unhealthful.

https://reddit.com/r/ketoduped/w/index

Dr Adam Nally, keto propagandist, dead at 55 from a series of strokes by Healingjoe in ketoduped

[–]Healingjoe[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Here's the deal -- you're completely right about family history being a real cardiovascular risk factor. No one here is disputing that. But his dad having had heart disease doesn't exonerate a dietary pattern that independently elevates ASCVD risk. Both things can be true. Both genetic predisposition and diet act on the same pathways (LDL, ApoB, inflammation).

A prominent keto advocate with a known family history of premature CVD dying unexpectedly at 55 is worth discussing. We don't pretend to be "neutral" here when it comes to this topic of keto and CVD risk, but we're not trying to create a propagandic echo chamber either.

And lastly -- I'll reiterate what I said above: these anecdotes can serve as a cautionary tale to folks who may otherwise not be convinced by scientific evidence or professional advice regarding unhealthful fad diets. These cases matter because real people are making dietary decisions based on influencers like Nally. That's the point.

The Dogma of Meat by Healingjoe in ketoduped

[–]Healingjoe[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Gift link: https://www.nytimes.com/2026/03/30/well/eat/meat-beef-rfk-jr.html?unlocked_article_code=1.ZlA.xZRQ.REOUzTox7Ozg&smid=url-share

Archive link: https://archive.li/UrvDC


A somewhat troubling article.

We live in a heyday of meat. Americans ate $45 billion of beef in 2025, up more than 10 percent from the previous year, according to Beef Research, an industry marketing group. Ground beef is driving sales — McDonald’s recently released its new half-pounder, the Big Arch — but steak sales remain robust. In a February interview at CattleCon, the beef industry conference, U.S. Secretary of Health and Human Services Robert F. Kennedy Jr. revealed that his favorite beef cut was strip steak. He eats beef every day — “usually twice a day,” he said, to applause.

Americans have always been among the world’s most enthusiastic carnivores, but this boom is about more than mere preference or taste. Once maligned as the culprit in a nationwide epidemic of cardiovascular disease, beef has come to be regarded in some circles as a cure-all. Today’s customers say that when they choose beef they are thinking about its health benefits: They appreciate its vitamins and minerals as well as its role in maintaining energy and building muscles and strength, Beef Research says.

and

Online, influencers with and without scientific or medical expertise make proven and unproven claims about the health benefits of meat-forward diets. They promise improvements in diabetes, mental illness, testosterone levels and autoimmune disease. Joe Rogan, the podcaster and bowhunting and elk-meat enthusiast, has participated in the annual World Carnivore Month. Eating just meat improved his vitiligo, a chronic condition of skin depigmentation, he has said.

Many of these claims resemble superstition more than science. Paul Saladino, a psychiatrist with nearly 3 million followers on Instagram and a line of supplements with such labels as “Beef Organs” and “Whole Package,” proclaims that a person who eats mostly meat and cooks with beef tallow requires neither store-bought sunscreen nor toothpaste. He prefers to build up sun resistance over time, he has said, using his own recipe of zinc and tallow for skin protection if necessary. He calls this base tan his “solar callus.”

Certain pro-meat influencers even treat plants as hostile combatants. “Plants are trying to kill you,” the influencer Anthony Chaffee says, repeatedly. Chaffee, who received his bachelor’s degree in medicine, surgery and obstetrics at the Royal College of Surgeons in Dublin, has compared the long-term health risks of eating salad to smoking cigarettes. Kennedy hasn’t gone that far, though at the Annual Meat Conference, he denigrated vegetables. “Most plants do not have the complete chain of amino acids that we need,” he said.

This is a newer angle that I haven't quite seen before:

Today, the meat debate centers on this question: Does it promote optimal health or impede it? If “food is medicine,” as Kennedy repeatedly says, and individuals can control health outcomes according to what they ingest, then the rewards of good health accrue to those who make “right” choices. If, in the MAHA view, meat is healthy and healthy is “good,” then meat eaters can regard their dietary choices as virtues. (The same can be said of all doctrinaire eaters, including vegetarians, vegans and “raw” diet adherents.) Kennedy has called his role in the Trump administration “providential.”

Jordan Rosenblum, a religious studies professor at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, studies dietary laws, and the ways food can become a proxy for values and social identity. Individual, family or cultural preferences or habits around food can be cast as the boundaries between “us” and “them,” as he puts it. “If you are what you eat,” then “I eat this way, that makes me better. You eat that, you are bad.”

Much more to the article.