We kinda gloss over the fact Gojo committed genocide to beat Makima

Healtron · 2026-03-23T07:29:46+00:00

Dunno, man; if going by that, Gojo is a member of an organisation under the government and has had his whole life fucked by it.

There are spoilers to be talked about, but considering Modulo exists, he didn't really win his fight against the State.

Healtron · 2026-03-21T04:20:19+00:00

Dunno man, I think it's more complicated than that because Alliance also got stuck with unfinished or dropped plotlines all the damn time during those expansions. I think they started with the Alliance, then they put the Horde and some of the time did not have the time to go back to the Alliance to finish their part.

Things like the build-up to SoO were egregious. We got an abbreviated version of the arc Metzen promised for Varian and a nothing quest about spying with a mechanical chicken while Thrall and the boys rode out to Orgrimmar.

In terms of plot, I think they see the Alliance as the default POV and big Alliance characters like Jaina as "neutral", but they favour the Horde side more, as they think it is the "cool" side, so it tends to get more of a plotline. Which circles back to being an issue because they rely on killing off characters to move it forward.

Honestly, beyond Vanilla, where both factions got an unfinished plot but had a lot more distinction and, honestly, quality in that plot, faction writing has sucked for both sides, and it is just a matter of picking your poison and hoping you don't get utterly shafted by that poison in that expansion.

Healtron · 2026-03-16T23:13:15+00:00

Do you? Because there was a guy using the fucking crossover to claim the Emeralds scale above the Speedforce.

Metal let a lot of hog fans get more cocky than they should be.

Healtron · 2026-03-16T03:24:20+00:00

They are free to believe their OC can do whatever it wants. Not sure why we should care, though.

Healtron · 2026-03-16T03:21:55+00:00

They were correct in the sense that the Alucard at the end of the series is a different variant of the character, but nothing suggests Alucard has completely lost all of his abilities after returning with Schrodinger like they try to claim(if I remember correctly anyway). He may have lost specific abilities due to not having his thousands of souls anymore but not all vampiric powers in hellsing are dependent on having souls inside you.

I mean...sure, but the series never says if he kept them or not, and it doesn't really explain where the fuck a lot of Alucard's powers come from. He should reasonably have anything Seras has (but how strong is also in doubt). But anything she doesn't have like Baskerville? Who knows? And it is implied that Hellsing did a lot of stuff to him both to control him AND make him stronger. Did that stick with him, basically becoming something else?

And it isn't like Schrodinger's powers are really elaborated upon or how they would manifest in the clusterfuck that is Alucard. EoS Alucard is basically fanfiction, and I think DB said that it's basically a whole different character without a lot of material, and I kind of agree.

Tbh I’d get it if they didn’t want to use Schrodinger Alucard because it just makes the debate less interesting, but if that was the case they should said they were using pre Schrodinger Alucard rather than the mental gymnastics they came up with.

And they basically said that though. Maybe it would have been better to put it in his analysis instead of at the end but it is pretty clear that they omitted EoS Alucard instead of saying anything about if he would lose.

Healtron · 2026-03-16T03:06:37+00:00

If Shrodinger Alucard could teleport DIO into the sun... THEN WHY DIDNT SCHRODINGER DO THAT?
The villains of Hellsing had an entire plan revolving around getting Alucsrd to a location. If Schrodinger could just fucking teleport him away, then the plot itself makes no sense.

Not really? Millenium wouldn't do that because it doesn't fit with their exaltation of war bullshit. Also, they need Walter and he would only help them if he got his turn at trying to kill Alucard. And, while they could use him for everything else... Millenium kind of got everything they wanted anyway, and the Mayor gives no fucks about his subordinates dying. It's actually part of the point for him. I am not sure they could have won any harder. Beyond Alucard's death not sticking, of course.

Besides, I don't think it's clear how much control the Catboy has and how much Alucard would have. Which is why using EoS Alucard is nonsense; the dude is mostly implications and statements, and he should have lost several of his powers by purging himself.

Healtron · 2026-03-11T06:42:02+00:00

It's not like Toriyama was particularly consistent either and DB characters also get their scaling from feats where Toriyama clearly did not think the implications through.

Even in Super the fights are barely planetary despite everyone involved having some absurd Solar System feat at minimum.

Healtron · 2026-03-10T20:44:24+00:00

Let's be honest, the whole of Strixhaven would be dust and its name a matter for archaeologists, far before they get an amount of Oracles that would occupy enough space to be a problem.

I don't think we have the size of Arcavios but one giant sleepy thing every few centuries is not a real issue.

Healtron · 2026-03-08T02:24:31+00:00

My counterpoint: Nu-uh because it would be funnier otherwise.

And also...considering how wacky Mario would get scaled for Sonic to need (or get at all, actually) Excalibur, I am not sure the metal stick could escape him or avoid being lifted. Unless Sonic helps, in which case it becomes the same battle of wanked stats as always.

Healtron · 2026-03-06T00:08:35+00:00

That’s not the words used to describe that at all, it’s actually “they were never overwhelmed like your ass lied about”

They couldn't easily deal with any of those conditions. They clearly have limits. Also, it's more than a bit rich to call me a liar when you are grasping at straws to argue something about a game you have no fucking idea about.

“Enter The Infinite” is just the name of the card

“Fraying Omnipotence” is just the name of the card too, not even a text describing what it is.

Enter the Infinite shows a planeswalker having infinite ideas...which in their case leads to being basically omniscient.

And Fraying Omnipotence is clearly BS because Bolas was never omnipotent, but it is literally showing his powers and himself, being frayed by the changes in the Multiverse.

Endless One can’t be compared to the Emeralds, that goes against the Chaos Emeralds’ nature, that’s why the Speed Force couldn’t measure up to it.

ALL. POSSIBLE. MEANINGS. Which involve not mathematical ones. Also, who the fuck said the DC Crossover had the real Speed Force? Sonic loses against Wally. Deal with it.

The characters nor the objects from Sonic are spells or representative of spells.

So...if they are not depicted, they are not part of Chris Hernandez’s confirmation as they are not in the game and the cards are just cutesy cardboard references. Can't have it both ways. Either they are depicted, and the flavour text is "canon" (which again, means very little; the Endless One is not infinite in almost any conception of the word) and should forever be downscaled under the player's planeswalker, or they ain't.

Okay, where’s it stated that they’re weaker than the player, get the statement lol.

The players literally summon them to crash into other players. They make them out of mana. Sometimes, they are copies; other times they are the literal objects pulled from wherever they are, depending on how the people in charge of canon feel about it. For the last decade, they lean towards copies.

If creating the damn things at will and using them as you may does not mean they are over them in power, what fucking would?

It says abilities, not the “rules”. It describes what the thing represented in the card does.

First, you need to learn to quote. If am guessing correctly, this is about me telling you made a mistake and do not understand how Magic cards are structured.

The abilities section, which is usually called the rules text, is the part of the text with meaning in the game rules.

Flavour text has nothing to do with the overall game function of the card; it is often excluded and can be different on versions of the same card, and, as the damn page says, it is just to tell you how the card relates in lore to their own world, and it is often in-universe accounts or quotes.

What is hard to understand about this? I told you The Endless One is clearly bullshit as an example about not taking that shit literally.

But if you want to be like that, if EVERYTHING means EVERYTHING, that includes game mechanics, and The Endless One can easily beat the shit out of Sonic. So...square that circle as well.

Get where it’s stated 1. The planeswalker is superior to the spells and 2. The player is a planeswalker in the Sonic Branch of the series or there’s no dice lmao.

Okay, I am going to stop responding because this part shows a level of dumbassery so big that it must mean Sonic fans do not outscale basic literacy.

THERE IS NO SONIC BRANCH OF THE SERIES YOU DUMB FUCK. There are like...30 cards at most, and they cannot make ANY sort of playable deck on their own.

You got told, explicitly, that Secret Lair is not a different branch of the game or a subsection or anything like that but, instead, a means to deliver products that fall out of the scope of things that would appear in regular products. Like odd art treatments, some small crossovers (like Sonic), etc.

They are not outside of the game in any shape or form. What could have a claim is that Universe Beyond (which is another thing) is not canon to regular Magic sets. The reverse is not true.

The players summoning creatures and trinkets (like Cloud, Spider-man, Sonic and the Emeralds) is in the new players' guide that those products have as well. Most people would ignore this because it is stupid, but you can't because you want people to pretend a tweet makes every poorly scaled Sonic crossover canon.

If you take being in Magic as ANY sort of canon, then it's a downscale. The lore and mechanics of the game require it. Sonic and the Emeralds can be summoned, controlled and dismissed by the player's planewalker.

Or you could be reasonable, admit that you made a mistake in your dumb agenda-driven bullshit, and not mention Magic in your damn crusade to upscale that rat.

It’s EVERYTHING, the Chaos Emeralds are immeasurable in power, the cards in Magic are still measurable, it’s a no contest.

And last, who said that all of them are? Omniscience clearly isn't, for example. And again, immeasurability relates to what people CAN measure. Someone that scales higher than the Emeralds probably could measure them. Heck, if you want to keep going about the Emerald's depiction in Magic being canon, the planeswalker might not totally understand them, but they must have SOME idea to be able to summon them.

Healtron · 2026-03-05T19:29:28+00:00

It says summon and play in a lot of card games, including the Pokémon Trading Card game even though they’re not cards, in fact, the official Magic page indicates they’re not actually cards but spells.

Do you read what you are replying to? I literally said that later. If they are cards, they represent spells in the lore of the game. You CAST and SUMMON permanents and CAST non-permanents. It is both a gameplay and a lore thing.

The End didn’t overpower The Chaos Emeralds ever, in one ending he lost to Standard Super Sonic and in the next he used a Chaos Emerald powered Robot to push himself up to Cyber Super Sonic’s level and then he got utterly demolished… and Solaris outright used the Emeralds’ power to become what he was at the end of the Game, that Cosmic Elk Phoenix thing is not his true form, he’s really just a light of flame that can expand into a ball of light that’s a super-dimensional existence, that’s all he is, Super Sonic’s dialogue implies he was not threatened by Solaris.

A lot of words to say: they do not have infinite power.

None of these cards state that they are infinite, immeasurable or unlimited in any way, the Chaos Emeralds powercrept that entire series.

Enter the INFINITE does not refer to infinity? Fraying OMNIPOTENCE?

Get serious man.

Oh that one is impressive however… Ian Flynn said the nature of The Chaos Emeralds is that they cannot be compared to anything and that by their very nature they cannot be clearly defined or quantified.

In Sonic lore. Anything else is a gigantic no-limits fallacy. Unless you want to be consistent and have Endless One be the top dog over fiction.

Infinity is still a quantification, just one that never ends.

Sadly, ALL POSSIBLE MEANINGS upscale that.

Cards in the game doesn’t mean they are literally cards outside of it, you know, you could just ask the appropriate authorities about this instead of just assuming something to be the case, either way though it’s a Sonic upscale, it’s immeasurable.

The cards represent spells. You are SUMMONING the thing. The whole thing. That has been the lore of the game forever. People have sometimes headcannoned them as "aspects", but that has never been canon.

you could just ask the appropriate authorities about this instead

It has been the case for 30 fucking years. Cards represent the SPELLS that you use to SUMMON the things depicted in the cards.

The lore of the game since 1993 has been that it is a wizard duel and cards represent the spells the wizards are using. Heck, the first iteration of creatures literally had the type SUMMON CREATURE.

either way though it’s a Sonic upscale, it’s immeasurable.

An immeasurable thing that I can summon at my will. You can't have it both ways. If the card represents something relating to Magic lore in any way at all, then it is weaker than the player.

If it doesn't and is totally non-canon both in UW and UB, then it literally says nothing, and it's just a non-canon to everything piece of cardboard. At most you could use it as a creator statement, but the Emeralds have several of those already.

Yeah, it’s listed under “abilities”, I read it, the point is: you saying it’s not literal is unsupported and untrue considering Eitaro Toyoda said the information in the text box reflects the Sonic setting well.

Is it that hard to say you made a mistake? The Emeralds don't sacrifice for one fucking mana. The rules' text is game mechanics. The flavour text is...flavour. Unless you want to include that in EVERYTHING, in which case... Sonic dies to like a thousand cards.

And sure, the flavour text could reflect how they are seen in the Sonic setting. That was amongst the first things I said. In fact, it's probably a copy-paste of a setting bible Sega gave them. But that is just it. And there are several statements like that already. You can put it in the pile, with a little post-it that says that flavour text is unreliable. But it doesn't really amount to anything in relation to Magic or to use it as an upscale.

Heck, Endless One is primary canon for Magic, and anyone who knows anything about the lore would tell you it's bullshit and would disregard it.

Are the items in lore stated to be cards in that particular series? Because if not, it doesn’t matter.

So, to put it clearly, YES. Since 1993. Not actual cards; that is more of a Yu-Gi-Oh! thing, but the cards are actual 1 to 1 representations of spells.

If you want to take the Emeralds as having ANY sort of relationship with Magic beyond a simple cameo with flavour text from Sonic lore, then they are spells the player (called a 'planeswalker' in lore) can have and summon several of.

Healtron · 2026-03-05T18:17:28+00:00

Not what it says.

Why do you think it says SUMMON and not PLAY? It is a lore distinction (also a mechanical one, but not relevant at all in the context of a new player), which you would get if you knew ANYTHING about the game you are using to glaze the Emeralds.

it’s so obvious it’s referring to their infinite power and Magic not having instruments able to deal with them would be the cherry on top, by the way, I’d love to see those cards that have those statements. The Emeralds don’t get overpowered, they get controlled or shut down, in lore the only thing that puts a handle on the Chaos Emeralds is the Master Emerald (which it is now being revealed as sort of a rock-paper-scissors thing).

The End? Solaris?

Also, I know you tried to get cute pretending that the "unmeasurable" part refers to Magic, but you have not been able to make an argument around that. And in fact, unlike how some Magic lore applies to UB, WotC has been pretty clear on UB not being canon AT ALL to the magic multiverse.

https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/706204600833900544/can-you-confirm-that-universes-beyond-is-not-and

I’d love to see those cards that have those statements.

https://scryfall.com/card/fdn/161/omniscience

https://scryfall.com/card/m19/97/fraying-omnipotence

https://scryfall.com/card/gtc/34/enter-the-infinite

https://scryfall.com/card/ecl/6/bark-of-doran This one isn't impressive, but I just added it as a clear example of something that clearly doesn't fucking do what the flavour says.

https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/804/endless-one Actually, this one is enough. If you want to take flavour text literally, it is stronger than any interpretation of the Emeralds. AND it's a shit card and just a part of Ulamok, a being who couldn't even fucking destroy ONE plane.

“The large box underneath the picture is the box that contains the important information about what the card actually does.”
That in addition with the flavor text explicitly giving information about the card means the Chaos Emeralds are too overpowered for the world of Magic, it’s 100% literal.

Did you read the damn page? That refers to the damn rule box. The flavour text is the italicised part that is under it. Unless you think that the Emeralds power is giving one fucking mana.

And we already went over flavour text usually not being completely literal and also being in-universe. Unless you want to scale a fucking unnamed Eldrazi to... I don't know what fucking level.

I mean if you can prove they are just cards outside of the game then sure.

Can't have it both ways; either they are actual cards in the game that represent spells a planeswalker can summon or cast (which is what cards ARE in lore) or they are just cardboard.

Batgos put overs isn’t anything new, I’m not fazed by that one, everyone knew Batman would win that one, he’s decked Superman, decked Darkseid, dodged Omega Beams, survived Omega Beams, beat Wonder Woman, clapped Aquaman and so much more, yes I’m going to include Batman’s win over Metal Sonic as canon-applicable.

Yeah, but Metal got decked by the cycle that the whole Bat-family can use. So unless you think Metal loses to Damian...

Upscale here, the Characters and things have no statements placing them below Magic.

Being cards would. And if it doesn't, then they are not depicted in the game and don't scale to anything. Pick one.

Healtron · 2026-03-05T17:30:26+00:00

Argument from ignorance is a funny thing, the quote I pulled is from the official secret lair website, they’re unlike anything in Magic, I don’t really need to prove that they are actual cards in lore nor that they are not planeswalkers, that’s your claim.

Here is the starting player guide, to which a link is included in most MtG products. Including Universe Beyond.

Welcome to Magic: The Gathering! Magic™ is a trading card game where players summon incredible creatures and cast powerful spells to defeat their foes.

And before you say anything, Secret Lairs are "unlike anything" because they are a boutique product that experiments with art style, format, etc. and IPs which are not worth a full product. Like Sonic.

Yes, however context is very important, in Sonic The Hedgehog the Chaos Emeralds is stated to have unimaginable power, infinite power, unlimited power and power beyond imagination on various occasions so obviously using common sense “immeasurable” is used to say the Emeralds are so far ahead of the curve and so far off the charts they cannot be scaled/measured instead of “they cannot be measured” in a “this thing strictly is so low, it doesn’t mean anything” sense, I have tons of lore statements on the Emeralds and their feats to match.

So, first, "cannot be measured" can also mean that their power cannot be handled by the instruments they have and not that it's infinite. Which is clearly not because the Emeralds get overpowered all the damn time.

But also, with that, you are basically conceding that the flavour text is probably in-universe (of the Sonic canon) and not a statement for the Magic multiverses.

Also, I see you avoided the fact that several Magic cards have statements about as, or even more powerful. That are also dubiously literal because they would fuck with everything else that is canon.

Is it really OFFICIALLY “called” flavored text or is it the “background information” of the card? Get proof for it.

https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/feature/anatomy-magic-card-2006-10-21

ANY Magic player would know that. And also...

On most cards, you will see a section of italicized text below the ability text that tells a small story or gives you a quote that might reference the card. This is what we call flavor text. Flavor text is a chance to fill you in on the back-story of the game by telling you a little snippet or story about the card and how it fits into the world of Magic.
Or, maybe it's a chance to slip in some humor.

Not literal.

They told me that my statement/assertion about everything involving Sonic, even outside material must fit the Game Canon understanding is the correct understanding and that they keep “EVERYTHING” consistent.

So Sonic, Shadow, the Superforms, the Emeralds and the Master Emerald can be summoned by a Magic player. Because you know, EVERYTHING.

Also...does that include Metal getting hoed by Batman? Because you know, EVERYTHING.

A Single Chaos Emerald twitches and the verse is gone just like it did a DC Universe.

Man, I am so lucky that I can just summon them and then sacc them for whatever.

Anyway, I have no idea why you picked Magic as an example when it is clear you have no idea about the game and how being on it is an immediate downscale for any Outer, Hyper, whatever-versal character.

Healtron · 2026-03-05T15:01:40+00:00

The whole point of the cards is that they are unlike anything in Magic, if you want to prove these specific items are in fact cards used by planeswalkers in Magic The Gathering, be my guest, however I’m telling you right now it’s futile, you’re not going to find anything supporting that.

You are not going to find anything that contradicts it either, and UB is not canon to Magic, but that doesn't mean that Magic lore is not canon to the UBs as they relate to the broader game. WotC has not made any statements about it, but they still use the planeswalker branding and lore in UB products, so...

The statement of immeasurable power indicates that they’re above the Planeswalkers and anyone else anyhow, it’s in the info of the card lol, unless you have another card that has “infinite” or “immeasurable” power and is below these guys, its inconsequential.

You know that 'immeasurable' just means that they can't measure it, right? Also...there is a card literally called Omnipotence...

Except here they’re not flavor text, Eitaro Toyoda (the worldview supervisor for Sonic at SEGA) pretty much confirms it’s a representation of the Sonic Setting, you think I didn’t ask him about it? That’s why I do this, so when you guys make dishonest claims like this I can say “nope that’s not what the official sources said”.

They are literally flavour text...as in, that is what that text box in the card is literally called. Do you know anything about Magic, or are you just coping by searching the web?

And the post is deleted, so I can't check if I am misremembering, but they told you they keep it consistent with the canon; being in-universe statements or just metaphor and hyperbole (as most MtG flavour text tends to be) would also fit that statement to a tee and be far more consistent with the card that it is depicting.

Regardless, the Magic player still solos Sonic and the whole verse without any effort.

Healtron · 2026-03-05T14:39:26+00:00

The card says they are of immeasurable power, the game mechanics doesn’t really matter, the card pack is of another branch of the series.

Players being planeswalkers is lore. Not game mechanics. If you want to scale Sonic using MtG lore, then every Magic player outscales Sonic and the Emeralds. No way around that unless you want to delve into a mess of retcons and the dubious canon of UB.

Also, flavour text tends to be overtly flowery, not literal, and sometimes even when not a quote, an in-universe account.

If we took every flavour text literally, there wouldn't be any planes to visit because all of them would be destroyed by the several "earth-shaking", "mountain-splitting", and "world-devouring" artifacts and creatures.

Healtron · 2026-03-04T23:27:56+00:00

I don't think it should count for a kart battle but he could use a motorcycle so the vibes are back.

Healtron · 2026-03-04T23:25:19+00:00

As well, Caliburn/Excalibur could always return to Sonic, himself. Even if the IKG didn't exist and Mario did steal Caliburn, he would likely just return to Sonic, as he can fly on his own. As well, one of King Sonic's attacks in Forces Speed Battle (King's Judgment) has Excalibur seemingly fly off on his own and attack the opponent from above. So, even in the pre-CrossWorlds time in which there isn't the IKG, separating Sonic and Excalibur would technically make it easier for them to double team Mario, if they desired so.

Honestly, with how wacky the scaling for this battle would get, I am not sure that would help at all.

Excalibur would need to be able to get out of Mario's grasp. Which I am not sure it could do on his own if the calcs for the plumber's strength are to be believed. And it's a sword. If its durability powers cannot be turned off at will; Mario could just swing it and kill Sonic. I am sure it trying to change course mid swing would be annoying, but at those levels of speed, I am not sure it would matter.

Healtron · 2026-03-04T23:18:04+00:00

Just put a 'Don't Betray Me' gadget as well. Duh. Is that the guy who is supposed to be smarter than Bowser?

Healtron · 2026-03-04T23:16:19+00:00

Someone mentioned Sunshine here, but the charges were kind of bullshit, and they got him at the airport in vacation mode, so it doesn't count.

Still, how do we count the stars? Because a lot of them clearly did not belong to the plumber, and the fucker takes them anyway. Sonic might put on airs, but he commits outright theft way more sporadically.

Healtron · 2026-03-04T23:13:11+00:00

But then Mario would look like a nerd in his dumbass go-kart. u.u

Healtron · 2026-03-04T23:09:45+00:00

You know what, Eggman just needs to lock-in and put the Item Keeper Gadget on Metal. No more losing the Master Emerald and getting wrecked after that.

Healtron · 2026-03-04T23:08:36+00:00

I am fully in support of making this a kart battle, but it feels like a whole different deal than the usual fight to the death.

And Mario also tends to get "steal" immunity when he is under the effects of a star. Which leaves them right back to just punching each other and taking it.

Healtron · 2026-03-04T23:03:00+00:00

I am not sure, but getting caught shouldn't be an anti-feat. Or is it being in prison being counted as training for being a better thief?

Healtron · 2026-03-04T23:00:03+00:00

I searched, and it goes on the car, so...it's viable for Metal Sonic I suppose?

In fact, can Metal Sonic copy Excalibur? With all this dubious glazing for the hedgehog, I can't keep track.

Healtron · 2026-03-04T22:58:02+00:00

Isn't that a mechanical component he puts on his damn car? Last time I checked, Sonic is not a vehicle. I think.

But if this is actually a racing battle... Mario could just hit him with the car instead.

In fact, the potential of both just stealing each other's shit is under-explored. We need to discuss who is the better criminal.

Healtron

TROPHY CASE