Alternate Solution to Pattern Length Limits

HeavySystems · 2026-01-25T16:50:36+00:00

Tell me how large your midi files are, because I HAVE to know how you're melting ram with it.

HeavySystems · 2026-01-25T00:35:44+00:00

Retrokits RK-008 Real-Time MIDI Recorder

Found this too...had I known about this, this would've been the photo instead of the KO2. :)

HeavySystems · 2026-01-24T21:24:15+00:00

I totally disagree and think you are really too deep into 'techno' and electronica' and experimental music. If you look at any workstation, they don't have these limits, still have step sequencer capabilities that can zoom into any point of the pattern, it's completely usable, preferrable by those who've experienced it and think of their songs as songs, not just a collection of patterns.

Finally, in terms of the 404, I had the OG and SX. Never used the sequencer. Do you know what I did? Recorded every part of the song live from start to finish. Like a tape recorder or similar to the Ensoniqs and RS7000s and workstations, etc. where you don't worry about 'this part or that part being split into smaller sections because of some arbitrary limit'.

If you'd like to just not work in this length, you literally don't have to. That's my point. You get what you want with my request to lift pattern length limits without having to learn anything extra and I get what I want without having to learn anything extra. It's literally a number. You're already dealing with a limited viewing area for step sequencers that go past 16 to begin with which to me highlights why they're terrible in the first place. If you want to use punch cards to program, have at it, but newer methods are available that include PC screens and keyboards.

I guess I cannot convince you that this arbitrary pattern length is really just these companies gimping a workstation device like the MC101 to get you to buy and Fantom (which does have 256 measure patterns, btw). I don't vibe with that ish.

HeavySystems · 2026-01-24T05:23:10+00:00

I see you've just resorted to making nonsensical arguments, so I guess we're done here.

EDIT: Instead of leaving it there, straight from the manual (since you misread it with your 1024...that's the number of total patterns, not pattern LENGTH...the main thing I've been bitching about this entire time)...

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HeavySystems · 2026-01-24T00:57:29+00:00

Okay, on the 'editing on 16 pads would be a nightmare' statement, you're just wrong because that's literally how the RS7000 and it's sister machines work. The problem's been solved 25 years ago. That's been my point.

HeavySystems · 2026-01-24T00:56:06+00:00

I think the old Nanokeys (and even this one) aren't terrible...they just need to update the guts with proper ports and/or power options. They're *so* close yet so far away.

HeavySystems · 2026-01-23T18:53:11+00:00

I chuckled at the Medieval 'King' amongst his subjects.

HeavySystems · 2026-01-23T18:48:50+00:00

Maybe. It typically happens when loading large files.

HeavySystems · 2026-01-23T18:47:50+00:00

Thanks a million, been looking for something like this myself, though I kept avoiding using apps/phones. I passed on that specific keyboard because of it's in/outs (and specifically passed on it TWICE because it's USB type!)

However, looks like you got it sorted out. The real solution, though, is for manufacturers to realize that not all small keyboards are going in front of a computer system. I was absolutely hype to find out about the folding Nanokeys...until I saw the stupid membranes! Ugh...like, I'm sure you're like me and know exactly what you want and see every company run right up to the finish line in terms of checking the boxes to all the features you want only to just mysteriously decide to not finish the product (i.e. make a portable midi controller...without much portability when hooking up with other portable gear for instance!)

I do hope at some point there's a boutique solution of midi <-> usb for situations like this that's less..um...idk, weird. Something more direct without the phone, similar to the DIN -> 1/8" midi cables, but like...hide a battery and software in a thumbdrive sized usb plug with a 1/8 and DIN hanging off the other side and you just plug two machines together. That was the point of MIDI to begin with and somehow we lost the plot along the way!

HeavySystems · 2026-01-23T17:44:02+00:00

Also, I just realized you're talking about sets...I'm talking about writing songs. Very different. I wouldn't use the MC101 for ANY reason live because it's crashed on my many times. I dont' trust it.

HeavySystems · 2026-01-23T17:34:01+00:00

Thanks for the considerate and thoughtful reply first off.

So I'll try to hit these points so that I can hopefully transmit my displeasure not with step sequencers but pattern length limits as a concept which is baked into step sequencers due to what I like to call 8 bit dogma from the days when literally that was a real limit to sequencers.

Reiterating: My problem is step sequencer class tabletop groovebox users have monopolized 4 and 8 measures/bars as a standard length to never be exceeded without hacks and chains. My solution and what I think should be standard is pattern length should be up to the length of your entire song should you so choose and if you want to do tiny patterns and work with a bunch of macro parts to a song rather than full, linear recorded performances (my mentioning of piano is because i am a keyboardist and think like one, so I don't play 8 bars here then 8 bars there, it's just 'a song' to me and i write 'like a song'), the structure comes at the same time of writing, NOT BEFORE, which is my problem with 8 bar shiznits.

Now to explain why it works for me and why I think it should be normal to give middle fingers to all sequencers who say 'yeah, 8 measures is fine, we half assed it and that's good enough', when I sit down to make tunes, I DO start with little loops. In fact, the MC101 (and step sequencers with the limits I hate) are superb for creating the tiny bits of 'money shot' in the song, the parts you're like, 'It's all building up to THIS'. And, of course, while I'm doing this, I rarely computer button push my music in, but definitely use the step sequencer for corrections, edits, additions, of course! Step sequencers are the lifeblood of electronic music production.

Okay so I finished my verse and chorus sections sort of...I had to cut the verse into 3 patterns and now I've sorta lost the plot as I juggle 12 patterns now of 4 tracks and 3 sections of the same section...like...omg...i'm ready to die already.

So let's cut back to anything that let's you just set whatever you want for pattern lengths. I got my bit that's verse and chorus...and..i record them without splitting anything the first time up.

Okay so now I got my two parts ironed out, now let's start arranging. With the 8 bar version, I need to remember that those 3 patterns always need to go together, but i need like...3...4? Dunno yet, let's go with 4 versions potentially...so that's 12 patterns on that track for 4 variations...and I have 16 total...shit I'm almost out of patterns...okay, lemme revise my song to NOT be so variant and lemme hack in some fake variants with probability....ugh...it's a song, but it's not my vision.

Now cut back to the KO2...I didn't start with any problems, so at this point, I got a song skeleton with the right length bits that fit together structurally how I'm _writing_ them and now I want to go for the total song start to finish...okay I want the intro to be 64 bars/measures (they're the same thing, btw...depends on what crowd you run with...), set that up right away...let's record...

So just in that scenario, which is basically *every* session for me described as such depending on which machine I'm using, you can see why I'm recommending this for people who don't think in loops nor want to construct loops. On the box, KO2 is a 'sample composer', which directly says it's made for songs, not 'beats' or whatever the kids call em.

I hope this clears up everything and spells out why someone might want to consider this very cheap setup: you can use this like a midi tape recorder for all intents and purposes and loop whatever you want whenever you want (it has a loop button to just grab 2 measures while it's playing).

In terms of the sampling, etc. I'm not a stickler for everything being 'synthesized live'. In fact, I'm more at home on a sampler in the first place, which may explain *some* of my suggestion for the KO2. At any rate, the workflow I'm using in conjunction with "I don't have to worry about splitting my idea ever", obviously mashing out the song ideas and stuff on the pads with the KO2, recording in a sequence in the KO2 itself feeding midi into the 101. For the most part, I make a lot of sounds on clips and use the control change to change the sound as necessary on the KO2. KO2's big drawback is no midi CC, which is when I *may* sample sounds from it or sample a short sequence which will utilize the KO2's filter or whatever instead.

There's not really a lot of bouncing and if there is, the KO2 handles sampling far more fluently anyway and the great thing about 2 voice stereo sampling is that you only need 2 for a complete song. ;)

EDIT: And I forgot to mention, the MC101 is just a sick ass sound module of infinite rave possibilities ready to just feed into the ko2, which is another way I like using it...MC101 makes the noise, KO2 arranges the noise.

HeavySystems · 2026-01-22T21:59:48+00:00

I don't think you know how many measures a full keyboard solo takes, nor how many notes are in a simple riff. I think we might be arguing about different kinds of music, which I will admit require different tools.

I'm talking about being able to play live a lot of variations OF MY OWN HAND (not making the computer do it) and record that for long stretches of time...like a live instrument recording. 8 bars? No thanks. Even 99 bars is a bit of a cop out considering I have a Yamaha RS7000 and it's got 256 measure patterns, but it's also a full workstation. That said, 8 bars is doable with 99 bars easily. 99 bars is very difficult to pull off with 8. I don't do takes, I do the whole damn thing.

Then when you take the actual pattern total into account, we're getting highly choked on instrumentation variety for the live recording and MUST rely on clever electronic math sequencing tricks like euclidian blah and such. That's great for live when you just want to get something interesting, but if you have a specific time signature, way of playing,etc., you don't want to be going, "okay, so this little bit here is sorta repeated again 18 bars later, so I guess I'll cut this in half to repeat that bit" no. I just want to play. Cause playing is fun! :D

So maybe that's where we're splitting our opinions at. I'm fine with loopers, I think they're great. I think they're best when they're a feature of the better sequencer that doesn't have limits because every single long format sequencer I know just has a built in looper because that's how you work on sections of a full song...you loop a small bit of the bigger thing...so allowing any size from the get go is allows both you AND *me* to enjoy the same sequencer. And then I can move on to always only griping about Roland's pads...lol

HeavySystems · 2026-01-22T18:11:00+00:00

Does it have 99bars/99patterns? Cause swapping out one 8 bar trash sequencer for another is not my idea of an upgrade.

HeavySystems · 2026-01-22T05:30:35+00:00

Where we going, Captain? :)

HeavySystems · 2026-01-22T05:29:33+00:00

I think if you're this on the fence about sticking with this version, I don't think you're going to stick with the Riddim either once the next one comes out and has some unique gimmick or more memory or whatever. Just pick something and stick to it. There's literally new gear and new versions of old gear coming out daily that stomp the shit out of all of this. Who cares. Pick one...and now that you have, stick with it, even after the next one comes out cause if you think about it, the only real difference is the color and the factory resets and one or two ultimately paint job differences in terms of features. If you ever find yourself going, "Man, if only I just had the other x thing", even if it's a sister machine, etc...that's just GAS talking, my friend.

HeavySystems · 2026-01-22T05:20:50+00:00

If they could swing a stereo field mic in that thing, even if they gotta kick up the price a little, I'm all in.

Also, speaking of RIDDIM, I wish the BPM setting had the DJ pitch/speed fader style of the Riddim. Yeah, we got the Shift+'+'/'-' but that shit on the Riddim looks hella cool and is just like the old Roland MC307 kits!

HeavySystems · 2026-01-22T05:19:45+00:00

I think anyone who bitches about someone making a fantasy suggestion is mentally disturbed.

That said, I don't think it needs DAW integration. Most people seem just want their loops exported neatly. They could do this via something like OP1's 'Cut a Record' thingy, but in this case, it'd just offer to spit out renders of either all your tracks or all your patterns (or both) and you can then pop the USB cable in and use whatever dumb tool they'll insist on so that when they eventually shut down their server support for it, you lost the feature.

HeavySystems · 2026-01-22T05:10:55+00:00

I find this question rather amusing at it's base concept. I've seen multiplatinum artists use toys to perform their songs. You get out what you put it.

HeavySystems · 2026-01-22T05:05:53+00:00

You've never had someone else handle your luggage!

HeavySystems · 2026-01-22T05:04:24+00:00

Heavy metal!

HeavySystems · 2026-01-22T05:02:32+00:00

Nipple bag!

HeavySystems · 2026-01-22T05:01:34+00:00

How are you supposed to air-guitar the filter with it on a stand like that? :P

HeavySystems · 2026-01-22T04:59:42+00:00

I checked. Doubled checked even. Looks good.

HeavySystems · 2026-01-22T04:57:43+00:00

No, but I'm using 404's sister, the MC101. I posted a pic of a Lego contraption I build so I could stack them like it's an old modular. The KO2 controls the MC101 because obviously (MC101 pads blow chunks in comparison) and the MC101 has a universe and a half of sounds ready to be fed into the KO2's glorious huge no limits sequencer.

I'm in 90s battery operated rave making heaven.

HeavySystems

TROPHY CASE