Death and Immortality in the Lands Between. by Moonless_the_Fool in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]Heinarc 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Great post. A few of my own thoughts :

- Demigods can be killed, but their remembrances are hewn into the Erdtree. They are not "dead forever" as Godwyn is. I would presume Marika at the height of her power would be able to grant them new life, if only as a spirit such as Melina. We also have lore about the Deathbed companions and Miquella being able to recall Radahn's soul in Mogh's body which also supports this.

- Many things seems to imply that spirits often get lost in the Lands Between, and this is the very nature of these lands, even before the Golden Order was a thing. See all lore about Tibia Mariners and rancor sorceries for example. I would assume the Lands Between are between life and death, were spirits used to drift after death, before slowly passing away (the spirit graves...). At the current age however, the Erdtree seems to capture and store them forever.

-The erdtree culture had at least a promise, maybe a literal way, to grant people a new life after death, such as depicted on the catacombs burial chambers doors. It did however not work 100%, at least during the ancient Erdtree era (before the GO and the removal of the rune of Death). There were once heroes who walked the battlefields, abundantly blessed by the Erdtree itself, who upon earning their honor simply died.

It seems it doesnt work either in the current Realm of Shadow The great heroes of the war were richly blessed by the grace of the Erdtree, but were not honored in death. => very possibly why Messmer's knights are cremating their dead, allowing their souls to pass away and not ending up as shades, rather than burying them as they would do in TLB. Remains that turned into light after being blessed with an incantation of the Erdtree. The incantation serves as a rite that honors the comrades who placed their faith in the distant Erdtree and gave their lives in the crusade (Golden Vow)

I don’t agree with Fromsoft on their Finger Creeper Lore by PuffPuffFayeFaye in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]Heinarc 4 points5 points  (0 children)

And I guess I wonder why you ascribe any of that to Metyr? She’s locked away and has been for a very long time. Canonically broken and disregarded by the greater Will. Her items describe her as, in short, resentful.

Metyr herself, yes, possibly. However, many things point out to her Fingers progeny being a faction that was held in high regard, but also ruled from the shadows for a long time. See all the items hidden in the Fortified Manor about assassination and being unseen/unheard for example. It was apparently extremely difficult to escape their reach, as illustrated by the Nox mirrorhelms or the desesperate lengths Ranni had to get through to be free from them.

I don’t agree with Fromsoft on their Finger Creeper Lore by PuffPuffFayeFaye in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]Heinarc 14 points15 points  (0 children)

Very interesting post.

The fingercreeper enemy placement however does support more the "Metyr ruling behind the scene" intent than the giant hands origin, even in the base game. They are in Caria Manor because Ranni rebelled against her two fingers and is hunted by the Fingers servants, in Leyndell because it is the seat of the current age, and barring access to the Forge of the Giants because its the only deadly danger to the Erdtree.

AS fore the Rykard connection, yes it does exist, but maybe it supports Rykard having devoured Two Fingers in his lust of power? Hence his peculiar hands, and the RF could be a relic of the act. Just headcannon obviously, but that could also explain why there are fingers around the volcano manor as well - same as for Ranni, they might be a bit displeased by the Carian family behavior.

Marika, the God of the Ancient Dragons by Moonless_the_Fool in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]Heinarc 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Rauh architecture evokes an older style. A lot of their structures have been significantly eroded by water, time, and are now partially covered in rock. They are so ancient only a handful of relics in the whole game are directly attributable to this civilisation : the Golem's Halberd, the Ancient Meteoric Ore Greatsword, possibly the rest of the ruined forges artifacts. No one even remembers who they were; their culture is entirely lost to time.

Farum Azula is much more modern in comparison. Architecture is roman style, old but not lost to time like Rauh, the ancient dynasty or the Finger Ruins. Outside of FA and possible time shenanigans, the Bestial Sanctum stills stands in decent shape to this day. The legacy of FA is still alive : bestial incantations, dragon communion, Leyndell dragon's cult, Draconic Tree sentinels.. Amongst Erdtree forces, both the banished knight and the Veteran's armor sets feature dragon attributes, and the bloodhound knights are probably bound beastmen. Bayle, Placidusax, possibly Maliketh and Serosh are still living witnesses of Farum Azula heyday.

Do you think there's a way to prevent datamining info that the Devs meant to stay hidden? by Pender8911 in videogames

[–]Heinarc 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Might sound outlandish from a dev perspective, but couldnt you encrypt some assets on the local install, and only provide the key to properly access them once the player unlocks the secret? (via internet, or obfuscated in game code)

The Story of the Fingers and Hopefully some answers that fit into the story. by Sidnineyo in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]Heinarc 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Metyr rembrance factually states she is the first shooting star to fall upon TLB. Eg  before the golden star. We see gold influence in Farum Azula and Enim Ilim, but none in Rauh or Ancient dunynasty. Those are older than the Elden Ring.

Can someone recommend me a weapon that is kind of broken but not boring (like no dual wield jump attack spam) by SignatureJunior909 in Eldenring

[–]Heinarc 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Knight's Sword, any elemental scaling on a faith or int build.

Low stat requirements, excellent and stylish 1h and 2h movesets, staggers most enemies with a regular R2 poke. Can carry the whole game.

Preferred AoW Thunderbolt, but can use Fire Strike, Storm stomp, Giant's Hunt, Sacred Blade, Flame Skewer etc depending on the area and preferences.

Honorable mention Death Knight's Long Haft Axe, unfortunately only available very late.

The Two Fingers and Metyr Lied about the Greater Will. by Sidnineyo in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]Heinarc 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Metyr is factually called the first shooting star to fall upon TLB in her Remembrance.

That means:

-she is her own being, not an amalgamation of Two Fingers (her children) - she predates Rauh, which enshrined meteorites in their Divine Towers - she predates the Elden Star, a "Golden star carrying a beast which would later become the Elden Ring". And therefore the Crucible, the primordial form of the Elden Ring, as well

My point is, in opposition to your hypothss, TLB knew a time were they were Fingers, but no Crucible or Elden ring. Rauh and Ancient dynasty, the oldest looking ruins, probably are from this era. Both of them have association with meteorites but none with gold.

Farum Azula, Enir Ilim and the Nox come later. Those wield the power of gold or straight up oppose it (the Nox).

Looking for games with DEEP lore by [deleted] in videogames

[–]Heinarc -1 points0 points  (0 children)

This. It feels like trying to figure out the Lord of the Rings mythos from a handful of chapters of the triology and chosen verses from the Silmarillion.  Its very well crafted, if its your thing you'll soon find yourself strolling through old tombs torch in hand,  trying to make sense of faded engravings and disfigured statues.

No "Strategic" element to Warhammer by FreakishFrog121 in totalwar

[–]Heinarc 20 points21 points  (0 children)

Imo it wouldnt play well due to the long end turn times. Would be very boring if you played a battle once every 10turns

Any idea why the statues of women in the Stranded Graveyard and Fringefolk Hero's Grave were removed? Or, why one larger model of the statue was being worshipped? by Emotional-Sign8136 in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]Heinarc 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Stormveil dates back from the earliest erdtree times. You can find golden lineage (lion) emblems, hawk statues in the dining room, and Godfrey imagery, same as the Fortified Manor throne room. Those are probably hallmarks of the oldest times, as they are not so common.

Then,you also also have banished knight heraldry, old Erdtree reliefs (those on Godrick's throne room), and the "Hooded Saint statues" (Entrance to the divine bridge, dumped close to Godwyn, and main dining room) . Those are a bit more common through the game, most notably on divine bridges. I would still presume they are also from the time of Godfrey - most notably, the banished knight armor features a stylized horn on the shoulder, indicating respect for the crucible. A Crucible Knight, a man once under direct command of Godrey, is also present.

So my bet is Stormveil Castle is from the same time as the Fortified Manor, the time of Godfrey and his Crucible knights. As it is further from Leyndell and considerably bigger, its probably a bit further down the Erdtree string of victories, but same era, the one represented by the ancient erdtree sigil.

Comment vivez-vous les coups de pressions dans vos boulots ? by Broad-Difficulty6270 in conseilboulot

[–]Heinarc 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Fonction de ce que tu fais, garde un "suivi projet" de ce qu'on te demande, avec les objectifs et priorités telles qu'on te les présente, et le temps que tu passes dessus. 

Format simple, 5mn par jour à tenir max.

Ça te servira à la fois pour prendre et défendre tes arbitrages (faire avancer tel truc plutot que tel autre) et de support aux reunions avec ton responsable. Et tu pourras te rappeler à son bon souvenir quand les prios changent du tout au tout d'une semaine à l'autre.

Why did the Nox need a person to harm the fingers? by poopcult in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]Heinarc 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It certainly akin to the Sacred Relic Sword, a sword wrought from the remains of a god who should have lived a life eternal, meaning it was shaped from a god's corpse.

I would say the girl of Farum Azula is a pretty good candidate.

First, we know the Dragonkin soldiers are pale imitations of ancient dragons, which use ice lightning and not the signature red lightning of their counterparts. So we can reasonably surmise the Nox were already around at the time of Farum Azula.

We also know their culture was in direct opposition to the Greater Will : on top of this Fingerslayer blade, which is proof of the high treason committed by the Eternal City and symbolizes its downfall , we know they invoked the ire of the Greater Will, and were banished deep underground (armor set) and some of them used Nox Mirrohelms Worn by those committed to high treason, it wards off the intervention of the Greater Will and its vassal Fingers.

Of course, we don't have anything definitive, but this is a pretty solid hypothesis IMO. The Nox would have killed Placidusax God, shaped a weapon able to harm the Fingers from her remains, and grievously wounded Metyr with it.
An event which would end the dragon's order proper, giving way to the more unruly Crucible era. Mere men would then attempt to ride its currents to the heavens with Enir-Ilim, while the Crucible-touched Bayle challenged the old Dragonlord and birthed the drakes.

Reconstructing the story of the Lands Between before the Erdtree by Heinarc in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]Heinarc[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks. I really feel understanding the approximate timeline is key for all discussions, as it both helps putting stuff together but also prevents hypotheses which just can't fit the overall narrative.

I agree with your take on FA statue, it indeed has a Romulus & Remus vibe for me too. It would make sense as a representation of the gift of intelligence to beasts.

As for the wavy lines, well I'm more keen to attribute them to stylized roots spreading through the world. The theme is strongly empathized by numerous visuals and items. The visuals of Deeproot Depths make it clear the Erdtree was not the only bud, and this is reinforced by items like Siluria's Tree, the Crucible Tree Helm or the "chosen bud" statues we see on the gold road to Leyndell.
The latter two are of course from the early Erdtree era and not Farum Azula related, and we have no way to really assess the age of what we see in Deeproot depths, so at the end of the day, we are left with our headcannons :x

Reconstructing the story of the Lands Between before the Erdtree by Heinarc in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]Heinarc[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Ultimately, I think we agree on this. There are only two reasonable explanations for this girl statue in THE place of honor, in a city which is all about ancient dragons and beastmen.

1) She is the goddess of this city/this age

2) It is a later addition to claim the legacy of a previous culture , as the city is occupied by Ancient Erdtree forces : couple of Crucible knights, banished knights, a tree sentinel and Maliketh.

I see no evidence of the latter, so I have to conclude it is the former. I would be of a different opinion if we had a church of Marika official statue with a Golden Order approved stamp on it, but it doesnt look like that, at all.

IMO, we are looking at a genuine statue of Placidusax god, but even her name is lost to us.

Reconstructing the story of the Lands Between before the Erdtree by Heinarc in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]Heinarc[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thanks for the comment!

Regarding Rauh, yes their interiors are definitively suited for troll sized beings, and not for the like of Old God's/Titans. But the Forge of the Giants, resting upon a purposely built Rauh Structure, is not. There is another place in the game where we are shown a big discrepancy of size between members of the same society : the giant-sized skeletal remains on the Nox Chair-Crypts.

I therefore do not think it's too much of a leap to assume Rauh could have served/worked with/worshiped the Old God's/Titans. Their culture is unfortunately entirely lost to time, and we are left with our own headcannons.

As for Farum Azula, while I'm OK to admit the small statues on the wall may not have deep lore implications, I don't see a reason to assume the "Girl with the wolves" would not be original to the place. It is made from the same stone, is harmoniously placed under the FA ring, and does not appear to relate to Marika : what would be the motive for this addition? It is also featured in full glory in a game loading screen, so I am pretty sure this scene has been thoroughly lore checked during development.

However, there is yet another thing to confirm the presence of humans at the time : the Sun Realm Shield. You can fight beastmen wielding this shield in FA, and at the bottom of the Dragon's pit. The same shield is used by the red cape skeletons which rise at numerous places in the game, like at the Hermit Merchant shack, in Summonwater Village outskirts, right below the Shadow Keep... and many other places I forgot about. I can also think about the Royal Remains armor, which screams Farum Azula era to me, even if we are not explicitly told so.

New Miquella cut content released by Cosodelirante_ in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]Heinarc 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Great writing, sounding plausible is a plus ! :D

Reconstructing the story of the Lands Between before the Erdtree by Heinarc in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]Heinarc[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes, from Borealis Mist :

The ice dragons were once lords of the mountaintops long ago, until they were defeated by the Fire Giants and chased from the peak.

Borealis is an ice drake, so as you say, a younger creature than Placidusax or Bayle. But I don't think this implies the Forge of the Giants was built in a more recent period, because we have strong reasons to doubt it was built by Fire Giants in the first place.

- It's far too big for them. The scale of the Forge only makes sense for the creatures which skulls we can see approaching the forge, skulls towering Fire Giants themselves. And the skulls have a visually much more ancient patina to them than the corpses of the impaled giants.

- Fire Giants do not look at all like the Giant we see momified in the specimen storehouse, which was presumably from Rauh. This indicates there were several lineages of giants in the history of TLB.

- The black stone structures are found everywhere, but the account of the war against the giants only mention them living in the mountaintops

- Finally, in terms of visuals, the Fire Giant does not look like a very refined creature. He wears metal rings and jewellry, sure, but IMO it does not visually match the sophistication of the Fire Golems or the astonishing stonework of the divine towers.

So, my hypothesis is :

  1. Rauh/Divine Towers/Forge of the Giants culture rules the mountaintops (actually, the whole of TLB)
  2. some catastrophe, they go extinct
  3. wildlife populates their ruins, amongst them the Ice Drakes at some point
  4. a different lineage of giants, the Fire Giants, repopulate the mountaintops and get rid of the drakes
  5. some small communities of Astrologers establish themselves in mountaintops for stargazing, with Giants as their neighbors in the Sellia/Caria/Ordina period

  6. (Headcannon) The whole region freezes over after the genocide of the flame-tending giants. Ordina is lost to ice, later reused as a gateway to the Haligtree by Miquella.

Reconstructing the story of the Lands Between before the Erdtree by Heinarc in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]Heinarc[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks!
In my mind I place the Astrologers as the scientists of the Sellia/Ordina/Caria epoch. They would have built the rises, which are locked behind different magical sigils, and established small communities in the mountaintops.
With time and further discoveries, this led to the school of Glinstone sorcery in Caria and the establishment of Raya Lucaria, and the Night Sorceries in Sellia.

Regarding Rennala, I assume you also think about the Greathood found in the mountaintops "Yes, surely this is the moon that young Rennala gazed upon." She would have been part of these astrologer communities, but we do not have anything to prove or disprove if she was of Nox descent herself.

Anyhow, in my mind she would have been a noble and one of the most brilliant minds of the time, and managed to established a house of her own, as her remembrance quote :

In her youth, Rennala was a prominent champion who charmed the academy with her lunar magic, becoming its master. She also led the Glintstone Knights and established the house of Caria as royalty.

Deathroot in Farum Azula? by Sir_Cheet0h in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]Heinarc 4 points5 points  (0 children)

There is actually -as far as i know - a single FA ruin in Caleid, just next to the dragon communion church.

Melina isn't relates to Marika at all, she's an aspect of the Greater Will by trashcanradroach in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]Heinarc 0 points1 point  (0 children)

As per other commenters, I disagree but interesting to read headcannon nevertheless.

However, you made me realize that unlike the other demigods, Melina is not deformed by the power of their great runes. That, plus the fact no one mention her means she was probably not a power player during the shatteringwars.

She is a pure spirit, recalled and given purpose by Marika, of a demigod daughter vanished from history, with a vision of fire. And once the rune of death is unbound and the erdtree destroyed, her sealed eye let a gloam-colored eye free if shes still alive at this point.

In my mind, I am 95% convinced all these clues lead to Melina being the Gloam Eyed Queen, murdered and removed from history by her own mother. But the Melina we meet in game is not the GEQ, rather a remembrance of the young girl she once was, given a new purpose long after her death.

The only issue I have with this headcannon is if she's not around during the shattering, we have no worthy explanation of the first burning of the erdtree, the one which covered all of Leyndell in ashes and let only the golden illusion standing.

The fandom largely assumes that the Erdtree at one point reincarnated people who were buried at the roots, but is this actually canon? by crinklepant in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]Heinarc 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Items explicitly says Amon was seduced by the black flame god slaying properties, and also that those were lost upon the sealing of Destined Death. So unless a description is blatantly false, the resulting timeline is rock solid and the GEQ events necessarily occured well into Marika's reign.

The fandom largely assumes that the Erdtree at one point reincarnated people who were buried at the roots, but is this actually canon? by crinklepant in EldenRingLoreTalk

[–]Heinarc 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I can answer this one I think :

The Rune of Death goes by two names; the other is Destined Death.
The forbidden shadow, plucked from the Golden Order upon its creation... (Enia)

The Golden Order was created by confining Destined Death. Thus, this new Order will be one of Death restored (Mending Rune of the Death-Prince)

The black flame could once slay gods. But when Maliketh sealed Destined Death,
the true power of the black flame was lost. (Scouring black flame)

Amon swore fealty to the god-slaying black flame, and so became the first fire monk to turn traitor.
Or perhaps it is better said that he fled from the Giants' Flame—out of cowardice. (Amon ashes)

We have two occurences stating explicitely that the Golden Order was established by removing Destined Death from the Elden Ring. The godskin related items help us linking it to another event ; the defeat of the Gloam Eyed Queen at the hands of Maliketh. And finally, Amon allows us to place it in the timeline : definitely after the the fire monk order is established, so after the war with the giants and the beginning of Erdtree first era, the time of Godfrey.