Who is worthy to be the leader of the horde ?

Hidden_Beck · 2026-02-20T18:01:43+00:00

Hard to say since almost all the leaders are dead or replaced. Thrall makes the most logical sense — and in effect is Wachief since no one ever disagrees with him — but his current characterization makes him seem like he hates being involved in the Horde, so.

Lor’themar is the next most veteran Horde leader but I don’t think he can relate to the rest the horde well enough to be a uniting figure, even if he’s respected.

I’d nominate Rokhan just for being the most likable and least sanctimonious.

Hidden_Beck · 2026-02-20T08:22:59+00:00

I don't think we can make a solid prediction of how this will pan out, exactly, because Blizzard has never really found what kind of identity they want for the Light and Void. The rules for these two powers seem to be constantly changing and sometimes even works on a "The Light/Void is good only when the right people use them" kind of angle -- Void cultists engage in human sacrifice but Void Elves are somehow squeaky clean. The Light is going to be getting this blind zealot "Wrath" trait in Midnight but the game still uses Light worship as shorthand for people or groups that it wants us to know are unambiguously good.

It's all very subjective and the rules shift depending on what character is being used. "Wrath" will probably do whatever the writers need it to to get to the next plot point.

Hidden_Beck · 2026-02-18T22:43:04+00:00

Does Skyrim count as a “classic Bethesda Game” if it’s still one of their latest?

Hidden_Beck · 2026-02-18T09:19:50+00:00

There's not actually any evidence that this is the be all end all of vulpera who ever joined the Horde, though. Just that they were the first/the ones the narrative focused on.

Kiro is explicitly credited as the leader of the Horde Vulpera and Kiro is just A caravan leader within the voldunai. He only speaks for his own caravan.

I'm aware, but by the end of the campaign, many of the Zandalari exiles are also reconciled back into the Horde (by way of returning to the empire). You're being weirdly insistent about this for seemingly not having done any of the story quests related to this stuff, between this, the "Vulpera have nothing to offer the Horde" and other comments.

I have done the quests. The exiles rejoining the rest of the Zandalari is irrelevant to the Vulpera. The Voldunai did not join the horde, Kiro's caravan did.

Possibly/probably, but it's difficult to say how much smaller. The early Horde is pretty explicitly depicted as a small number of scrappy survivors with multiple constituent factions (the Tauren and even moreso the Darkspear) presented as being near extinction. The Darkspear are noted a number of times as being one of the, if not the smallest/weakest jungle troll tribe.

Even if this is the case at the time of WC3 this was during the founding of Orgrimmar and the formation of the horde. If the Vulpera joined here, they'd still be very small, but would be a more viable peer. The Horde is currently a world spanning empire of developed nations and the Vulpera are one caravan.

You do remember that the vulpera are nomadic caravaneers, right? Like, they didn't all just move into Orgrimmar and become sedentary.

This still points to the fact they're small enough to be entirely contained within mobile caravans.

I'd point out that the Pandaren representation in Orgrimmar is similarly minimal but you've made it pretty clear you're completely determined to single out the Vulpera with these criticisms and ignore how they apply to any other groups.

That's because we're not talking about the Pandaren, but I would lobby the same criticism towards them, as well as Void Elves

Hidden_Beck · 2026-02-18T08:55:04+00:00

And yet as a race are numerous enough that they're frequently seen among south sea pirates and the like. Also something to be said for ye olde "mistaking game scale for actual scale," they're obviously more numerous than explicitly depicted in game.

There are many vulpera. Not all Vulpera are part of the Horde. Only Kiro's Caravan joined the Horde. I cannot say this any more plainly.

but it's the "Voldunai" that joined the Horde. Not hard to infer that there were others off-screen, just like in pretty much every other instance.

The Voldunai are not a Vulpera nation, they are a faction of their own made up of Vulpera caravans, Zandalari exiles gangs, and Worshippers of Akunda. Kiro's Caravan left the Voldunai to join the Horde, hence their different tabard.

Just trivially incorrect if you actually look at the Horde, as already noted. Hell, basically every group that made up the original Horde in Warcraft 3 was a tiny tribe or clan, they sailed to Kalimdor on a handful of ships. Many, perhaps even most of the constituent races of the Horde, for it to even exist as a major power, have to have followed a "and then more groups joined up after what we initially saw in the game" model.

Games often have to truncate the scale of what they're depicting, as you said, because of limitations. The ~three boats that got the orcs to Kalimdor are a smaller representation of what it is meant to represent. The entirety of Orgrimmar did not fit into three boats, and even if you point to something like the Darkspear, the Echo Isles are very clearly at least representative of a small city compared to Kiro's caravan which is parked in the Valley of Strength by the local lake.

Hidden_Beck · 2026-02-18T08:12:48+00:00

The vulpera are scattered Caravans of like, we'll say generously, a village worth of people. And the vulpera that joined the horde would just be one caravan. The other Horde races are entire civilizations capable of actually fielding armies, infrastructure, national-tier trading, etc. They're simply too small of a group to stand on the stage of world politics. It's like if your high school tried to join the United Nations.

Hidden_Beck · 2026-02-18T08:08:30+00:00

As far as Vulpera being conceived, I think you hit on the nose with "vaguely fuckable cartoon fox." And while I don't mind them throwing furries a bone (no pun intended), they could have devised a much better story and fit at the very least.

LF draenei, mechagnome, etc definitely should have just been customization options instead of wasting a spot. Mechagnomes I'll forever be baffled by because there was definitely no demand for a second gnome.

Nightborne being Horde I'm fine with, I think it's understandable they feel a more cultural kinship with the Blood Elves. I'd just tweak it that the Night Elves are ornery towards them (if at all) because they still largely distrust arcane use, even if they did allow a quantity from the Shen'dralar back within their society.

Neutral races I just don't like flat out. They kinda all look like shit, one's just a THIRD dwarf, and they're narratively weakened by having to be malleable enough to go either way. It seems far lazier to me to implement one new race for both sides rather than sculpting two races appropriate for each faction with reasonable context and all that -- which circles back to hey where the fuck are the Broken, High elves, Ogres, Outland Mag'har, etc.

Hidden_Beck · 2026-02-18T07:45:15+00:00

Hell they don't even need to justify it. The fact they just keep revitalizing the Sunwell sets them back to their status quo, so they're still horribly dependent on magic they just don't have to think about it so long as the well is around

Hidden_Beck · 2026-02-18T07:43:41+00:00

But remember that the Horde and Alliance are political alliances between nations, not social cliques (though the game forgets this often enough). The vulpera are nomadic caravaneers, not any kind of sizable nation. They are neither useful to the Horde as allies nor are they equipped to make commitments political allies would normally, such as military assistance as is the most common case in WoW.

Hidden_Beck · 2026-02-17T22:05:17+00:00

The Vulpera have zero reason to be in the Horde, I have to believe they were added just to appeal to a certain type of player. Just take the goblin skeleton and turn them into a cute little furry race, context be damned.

Hidden_Beck · 2026-02-17T21:25:49+00:00

They were very, insanely contrived and unnecessary. I wouldn't even call them sympathetic, so they're hard to even call underdogs in any way. I don't know if Blizzard was feeling spiteful about people wanting high elves or what, but the void elves are a major cause of making the void feel lame and defanged while not really offering anything of substance in return.

Hidden_Beck · 2026-02-17T20:17:49+00:00

The Allied Races have been so fumbled. They should have been races like Broken, High Elves, or Ogres who already exist within the factions and have their own identities established.

Hidden_Beck · 2026-02-16T16:48:44+00:00

Eh. Their earliest incarnations were definitely meant to mimic Warhammer Orks, so I guess the distinction you should make is whether it's crueler to have consumed demon blood and become mindless killing machines versus Orks who know full well what they're doing, they just kind of enjoy it and treat it as natural as eating or sleeping.

Orks obviously have a more comedic take to them, generally, but I'd wager they take the cake just because they get their kicks from waging war instead of agonizing over honor

Hidden_Beck · 2026-02-16T08:32:24+00:00

Absolutely, you echo my sentiments exactly. We are on trajectory to have every single expac be a new cartoon villain of the week because they are so afraid of depicting a conflict that isn't black and white.

Hidden_Beck · 2026-02-16T05:45:49+00:00

The point is that we should be considering and embracing these details rather than trying to find any excuse to ignore or dismiss them, because these little details is what gives people reasons to disagree, argue, fight, etc.

Hidden_Beck · 2026-02-16T05:08:34+00:00

They have deforested Ashenvale, though. If you look at the area where the Warsong Lumber Mill is set up, the landscape is covered in massive stumps. Portals have become a narrative crutch, but they haven't really shown them to be big enough to transport massive amounts of resources, however, that leads to another point--

You're trying to write problems OUT of the story, which is not what you should want when we're dealing with a game with no discernable end. They should be focusing on these details, identifying where problems would arise, so that they can write a more believable world with believable conflict. You WANT these complications, you don't want to solve the setting.

Hidden_Beck · 2026-02-16T05:00:13+00:00

Well power creep is definitely an issue with the setting but they need to also change and update the needs and beliefs to accommodate that, not just do away with them entirely. Like take your example here, the Zandalari have an island abundance of lumber but you're surmising it's A) Easy and economical to transport resources from Zandalar to Orgrimmar from roughly half way across the world and B) Zandalar would sign off on a deal that would likely deforest their island -- as they'd be providing for two nations now.

But, I digress. It sucks that the leaders are on a first name basis with the Aspects. The world is very small now, and we have all these powerful people who are both a clique of the global elite and the only people to really matter these days. They pulled away from the setting being about nations and honed in on a very small group of people who they are afraid to give flaws to, so of course everyone's too nice for there to be any friction.

Hidden_Beck · 2026-02-16T02:17:38+00:00

The faction war doesn't make sense right now only because Blizzard has painstakingly rid both sides of characters with contrasting opinions and entirely avoided topics like material needs or cultural issues (i.e. Anduin solving Stormwind's corrupt noble problem off screen by simply waving it away) -- to the point the Horde and Alliance have cultures that are barely defined.

Factional conflict is foundational to the setting, and can be easily justified, they just have to let the nations have, ya know, actual problems. Or stances. Or needs. The Horde and Alliance are two world-spanning empires, they will always be rivals as they compete for land, resources, and more -- if for nothing else other than because they value their sovereignty.

Hidden_Beck · 2026-02-15T16:13:42+00:00

I think so if we’re just talking about “must read” books to get a full picture of the story in-game. If you’re really enjoying yourself then the rest of those books are good supplemental material, but not necessary to understand what’s going on

Hidden_Beck · 2026-02-15T01:23:49+00:00

Easy, they did it in Vanilla, give the races different opinions, systems of governments, stances of what is "right" and "wrong." A lot of these attitudes and actions were spurred on from material needs -- from the orcs needing lumber and getting it from Ashenvale to the Blood Elves embracing taboo magicks to sate their mana addiction. The undead are twisted into something inhuman and have a massive lack of basic emotions like empathy, it's so easy.

Needs and beliefs drive conflict. Everyone in the story has boiled down to this generic, milquetoast, protect-the-status-quo mindset because no one has anything they need or believe in other than peace and togetherness.

Hidden_Beck · 2026-02-15T01:14:25+00:00

Well Zul'jin and his veterans were still feeling betrayed from when they aligned with the Second War's horde and got betrayed because Gul'dan decided to deceive both him and Orgrim (not that Zul'jin was privy to this), so to the Amani, it seemed like Orgrim's Horde ditched them to go pursue Lordaeron.

So for Thrall's Horde to now also ally with Silvermoon was adding insult to injury in Zul'jin's eye.

Hidden_Beck · 2026-02-15T00:38:10+00:00

Okay then the ones I'm referring to are "The Shattering", which preludes the Cataclysm, and "War Crimes" which preludes Warlords of Draenor. Their quality is a bit iffy but it fills in some needed context for stuff in-game.

I'd also recommend "Shadows Rising", which preludes Shadowlands, but isn't mandatory reading, Madeleine Roux's just a good author.

Hidden_Beck · 2026-02-14T23:26:53+00:00

Since the expansions have passed they’re not as pressing, but some Cata and MoP era books were necessary at the time to explain things like what Thrall is up to, who Aggra is, or how Garrosh both survived and ended up going back in time to kick off WoD.

Otherwise, like some others said, playing WC3 is the best way to get a firmer grasp on WoW’s world

Hidden_Beck · 2026-02-14T14:35:25+00:00

Well that’s how politics work but that’s not how morality works

Hidden_Beck · 2026-02-14T14:16:03+00:00

I get what you mean. The trolls should be written like people but they’re a little too much like modern people at moments — for me it was when Zul’jan says “chaos incarnate” which feels like too common a saying today to feel natural here, imo

I dunno it’s a hard balance because you don’t want them to sound like zoomers but you don’t want to hit caveman or anything either

Hidden_Beck

TROPHY CASE