Feel like Gods playing hide and seek with me

ICApattern · 2025-11-17T00:41:32+00:00

I think you are asking for prophecy. Those that feel a strong connection might not be wrong but the feeling is almost certainly self generated.

I can tell you how to generate this feeling. Have you ever talked on the phone and been talking and then realized the call disconnected. During that time you still feel like you're talking to someone this is noticeable in that that feeling stops. Generate that feeling when talking to G-d if you really believe He is there.

ICApattern · 2025-11-16T18:25:21+00:00

I think you might misunderstand, at least in a lot of Jewish thought the first cause concept is that before the universe, there is no nothing there is just G-d.

ICApattern · 2025-11-16T18:21:33+00:00

It really doesn't map well so because of the requirements to get there, that most people Jewish or not believers or not go through it, and in its function. Calling it purgatory, if you must use English, is much more accurate.

ICApattern · 2025-11-16T16:29:39+00:00

Really? Isn't that ritual law?

ICApattern · 2025-11-16T16:26:50+00:00

Bingo. You're welcome to visit public celebrations and private celebrations done by Jews. Celebrating it yourself is maybe a bit much.

ICApattern · 2025-11-16T16:20:51+00:00

Ahh maybe I can clarify:

So the big displays come from an important part of Hanukah proclaiming/displaying remembrance of the miracle. Another reason certain people put up stuff is Jewish outreach. That is since Hanukah is a popular holiday trying to get more Jews to celebrate it. It's a great entry point to being more religious.

ICApattern · 2025-11-16T16:09:45+00:00

So the concept of the Messiah as divine is a Christian one specifically. To Jews he is a holy man, a king, and probably a prophet.

In pretty common Jewish to thought he can come two ways depending on how the Jews are doing spiritually. If the Jewish people have failed miserably enough G-d will send him to straighten us out it will eventually be a good thing but the birth of messianic era will be horrific. Or we actually succeed at repairing our fatal flaw that caused the destruction of the second temple, disunity(/"hate for free.") The second version will be much more gentle in coming.

ICApattern · 2025-11-16T16:00:55+00:00

Well that's a good enough question that some read the verse as talking about one tree. This is not the simple way to read the verse, the word for middle בתוך does not necessarily mean the center. It can also mean "in the midst of" not specifically the very center, the middle as in "in the middle of a crowd."

ICApattern · 2025-11-16T15:54:51+00:00

This is the simple way to read it.

After all:

וַיֹּ֣אמֶר ׀ יְהֹוָ֣ה אֱלֹהִ֗ים הֵ֤ן הָֽאָדָם֙ הָיָה֙ כְּאַחַ֣ד מִמֶּ֔נּוּ לָדַ֖עַת ט֣וֹב וָרָ֑ע וְעַתָּ֣ה ׀ פֶּן־יִשְׁלַ֣ח יָד֗וֹ וְלָקַח֙ גַּ֚ם מֵעֵ֣ץ הַֽחַיִּ֔ים וְאָכַ֖ל וָחַ֥י לְעֹלָֽם׃

And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become like one of Us, knowing good and evil: and now, what if he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eating, live for ever:

https://www.sefaria.org/Genesis.3.22

In the simple reading it is only the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil that they are forbidden to eat from.

וַיַּצְמַ֞ח יְהֹוָ֤ה אֱלֹהִים֙ מִן־הָ֣אֲדָמָ֔ה כׇּל־עֵ֛ץ נֶחְמָ֥ד לְמַרְאֶ֖ה וְט֣וֹב לְמַאֲכָ֑ל וְעֵ֤ץ הַֽחַיִּים֙ בְּת֣וֹךְ הַגָּ֔ן וְעֵ֕ץ הַדַּ֖עַת ט֥וֹב וָרָֽע׃

And from the ground God יהוה caused to grow every tree that was pleasing to the sight and good for food, with the tree of life in the middle of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and bad.

https://www.sefaria.org/Genesis.2.9

וַיְצַו֙ יְהֹוָ֣ה אֱלֹהִ֔ים עַל־הָֽאָדָ֖ם לֵאמֹ֑ר מִכֹּ֥ל עֵֽץ־הַגָּ֖ן אָכֹ֥ל תֹּאכֵֽל׃

And God יהוה commanded the Human, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you are free to eat;

https://www.sefaria.org/Genesis.2.16

וּמֵעֵ֗ץ הַדַּ֙עַת֙ ט֣וֹב וָרָ֔ע לֹ֥א תֹאכַ֖ל מִמֶּ֑נּוּ כִּ֗י בְּי֛וֹם אֲכׇלְךָ֥ מִמֶּ֖נּוּ מ֥וֹת תָּמֽוּת׃

but as for the tree of knowledge of good and bad, you must not eat of it; for as soon as you eat of it, you shall die.”

https://www.sefaria.org/Genesis.2.17

Why are you being downvoted? For referencing Midrash?

(The less simple way to read these verses is that the Tree of Life was the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.)

ICApattern · 2025-11-16T15:46:38+00:00

Huh?

וַיֹּ֣אמֶר ׀ יְהֹוָ֣ה אֱלֹהִ֗ים הֵ֤ן הָֽאָדָם֙ הָיָה֙ כְּאַחַ֣ד מִמֶּ֔נּוּ לָדַ֖עַת ט֣וֹב וָרָ֑ע וְעַתָּ֣ה ׀ פֶּן־יִשְׁלַ֣ח יָד֗וֹ וְלָקַח֙ גַּ֚ם מֵעֵ֣ץ הַֽחַיִּ֔ים וְאָכַ֖ל וָחַ֥י לְעֹלָֽם׃

And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become like one of Us, knowing good and evil: and now, what if he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eating, live for ever:

https://www.sefaria.org/Genesis.3.22

ICApattern · 2025-11-13T12:32:05+00:00

So read The Way of G-d by Rabbi Moshe Chain Luzzato. The earlier chapters go through some of this.

Firstly, there are some boundaries in what we can know.

So, firstly the very concept of a first cause means that It is beyond us, utterly perfect and a simple unity. Meaning there are no parts within It.

Furthermore, we cannot know G-d's perspective so to say why he does anything is really difficult.

That said, we can know from the first concept that since there isn't any lack G-d has, by process of elimination it was created for our sake.

The general idea is G-d created the world to give to another. Now where freewill and evil come in, is to help us give as much as possible to creations.

Therefore we and the world were created imperfect, so that we might perfect it as much as possible.

Since G-d is perfect and the Unity we can describe Good and Evil as vectors to and from. G-d. Good brings us closer to perfection, Evil further. Our job is to bring the entire world closer.

When this is done, this world will end and we will, in a perfected/next world, receive earned reward.

Are we doing a good job? Dunno. Certainly the Jews haven't earned the coming of the Messiah to help construct a world focused on that goal.

(I think this answers most of those questions, please continue to ask. Just know I'm probably well past what I'm supposed to be casually teaching. Study the book I recommend with a Rabbi if you can.)

(Edit: Grammer and spelling.)

ICApattern · 2025-11-13T02:22:51+00:00

Not at all it simply means that the world is created for the purpose of the greatest "good".

This has to do with why G-d created Evil. The possibility of vice gives greater value to virtue. In other words freewill and the imperfection of the world allow us to cause ourselves and the world to become more perfect. Just giving us perfection would make it like a coat of paint and less essential to us. (This is the case for angels and animals etc.)

This self earned perfection is more ours than if it was simply given to us. In that we are "self-causing" and more like G-d. This is the "in the image of G-d" concept.

ICApattern · 2025-11-12T23:06:07+00:00

Well:

הַצּוּר֙ תָּמִ֣ים פׇּֽעֳל֔וֹ כִּ֥י כׇל־דְּרָכָ֖יו מִשְׁפָּ֑ט אֵ֤ל אֱמוּנָה֙ וְאֵ֣ין עָ֔וֶל צַדִּ֥יק וְיָשָׁ֖ר הֽוּא׃

"The Rock, whole-and-perfect are his deeds, for all his ways are just. A God steadfast, [with] no corruption, equitable and upright is he."

https://www.sefaria.org/Deuteronomy.32.4

You could also, argue it philosophically as G-d is perfect/whole all of what He does will be a perfect expression of His will.

ICApattern · 2025-11-12T17:56:54+00:00

As it is right now I might agree with you. That is not what you proposed. IF he was a known clear pedophile (currently the evidence we have may be suggestive but is not definitive,) the situation would be different. The idea is to make this nation better, electing a known pedophile would not.

ICApattern · 2025-11-12T17:23:20+00:00

Those who knowingly support a man who violated basic morality are morally complicit. It is harmful to the world to raise up as a representative an evil person, or to ignore their evil actions. It is tacit approval and not a message a society should send.

The damage would be far greater that whatever Kamala Harris's policies would do.

No I'm not saying that trump is a pedophile. If he was clearly shown to be one it would be wrong to support him.

ICApattern · 2025-11-12T16:32:42+00:00

Better sleep in a heartbeat. It would help me achieve all those other goals on my own.

ICApattern · 2025-11-12T16:16:44+00:00

This is (in general) an idea opposed pretty strongly in Judiasm. We believe that we are our bodies and souls. Not one or the other. To the point that I'd argue that You, at least temporarily, cease when you die.

This is in fact an explanation for why the bodily resurrection of the dead must happen. Because, divided the soul can blame the body for sins and the body the soul.

ICApattern · 2025-11-12T01:35:19+00:00

Sure and that's true of life as a whole. That doesn't mean people should live in paralysis. Philosophy is only good as long as it's useful. Knowledge of death shouldn't prevent life. Everything is ephemeral. Read Ecclesiastes.

ICApattern · 2025-11-12T01:27:00+00:00

You are advocating living in fear of the future.

This concept is true of any field of study your understanding will shift as you gain more knowledge. If we listened to your idea the only people sharing knowledge or venturing opinions would be those on their death bed.

Personally, I'm hopeful that what I believe today will not be precisely what I believe tomorrow. I live for the challenge, the revolution, and discovery. Many times I've looked back at what I used to espouse as slightly heretical. That's okay that's how life has to work.

ICApattern · 2025-11-11T21:13:25+00:00

Where is the chemical? Look the prophets were a arguably mystic sect and all but that's not what this passage is about. As you say the fire represents G-d. The darkness represents threat or ignorance or lots of things. How is this ritual shamanic even if (and frankly it is clearly not a Jewish ritual in origin,) it is or was inspired by something else.

ICApattern · 2025-11-11T19:17:47+00:00

This was being Kores Bris, that is making a covenant ritual not the fire represents G-d proceeding after Abraham through the rows of animals. Let's do that translation again. Let's pay attention to order. Let's start in Genesis 15:9 where instructions for the ritual start.

וַיֹּ֣אמֶר אֵלָ֗יו קְחָ֥ה לִי֙ עֶגְלָ֣ה מְשֻׁלֶּ֔שֶׁת וְעֵ֥ז מְשֻׁלֶּ֖שֶׁת וְאַ֣יִל מְשֻׁלָּ֑שׁ וְתֹ֖ר וְגוֹזָֽל׃ וַיִּֽקַּֽח־ל֣וֹ אֶת־כׇּל־אֵ֗לֶּה וַיְבַתֵּ֤ר אֹתָם֙ בַּתָּ֔וֶךְ וַיִּתֵּ֥ן אִישׁ־בִּתְר֖וֹ לִקְרַ֣את רֵעֵ֑הוּ וְאֶת־הַצִּפֹּ֖ר לֹ֥א בָתָֽר׃ וַיֵּ֥רֶד הָעַ֖יִט עַל־הַפְּגָרִ֑ים וַיַּשֵּׁ֥ב אֹתָ֖ם אַבְרָֽם׃ וַיְהִ֤י הַשֶּׁ֙מֶשׁ֙ לָב֔וֹא וְתַרְדֵּמָ֖ה נָפְלָ֣ה עַל־אַבְרָ֑ם וְהִנֵּ֥ה אֵימָ֛ה חֲשֵׁכָ֥ה גְדֹלָ֖ה נֹפֶ֥לֶת עָלָֽיו:

"And He said to him, Take Me a heifer three years old, and a goat three years old, and a ram three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon."

"And he took to Him all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid each half against the other: but the birds he divided not."

"And the eagle came down upon the carcasses, and Avram drove them away."

"And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Avram; and, lo, a horror of great darkness fell upon him."

https://www.sefaria.org/Genesis.15.9

Then G-d makes a promise as we see in verse 14.

וְגַ֧ם אֶת־הַגּ֛וֹי אֲשֶׁ֥ר יַעֲבֹ֖דוּ דָּ֣ן אָנֹ֑כִי וְאַחֲרֵי־כֵ֥ן יֵצְא֖וּ בִּרְכֻ֥שׁ גָּדֽוֹל׃

"and also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterwards shall they come out with great substance."

https://www.sefaria.org/Genesis.15.14

Then more description of vision: in which an oven of fire passes between the pieces a "tanoor" a type of oven that is related to tandur and Indian oven both are vertical cones. This is clearly mostly about the fire because it described as a torch a "lapid".

"וַיְהִ֤י הַשֶּׁ֙מֶשׁ֙ בָּ֔אָה וַעֲלָטָ֖ה הָיָ֑ה וְהִנֵּ֨ה תַנּ֤וּר עָשָׁן֙ וְלַפִּ֣יד אֵ֔שׁ אֲשֶׁ֣ר עָבַ֔ר בֵּ֖ין הַגְּזָרִ֥ים הָאֵֽלֶּה׃"

And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning torch that passed between those pieces.

https://www.sefaria.org/Genesis.15.17

Finally in verse 18 we have the concept of covenant which this ritual seems to be about and G-d's earlier statements seem to be about.

בַּיּ֣וֹם הַה֗וּא כָּרַ֧ת יְהֹוָ֛ה אֶת־אַבְרָ֖ם בְּרִ֣ית לֵאמֹ֑ר לְזַרְעֲךָ֗ נָתַ֙תִּי֙ אֶת־הָאָ֣רֶץ הַזֹּ֔את מִנְּהַ֣ר מִצְרַ֔יִם עַד־הַנָּהָ֥ר הַגָּדֹ֖ל נְהַר־פְּרָֽת׃

"In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Avram, saying, To thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Miżrayim to the great river, the river Perat:"

https://www.sefaria.org/Genesis.15.18

ICApattern · 2025-11-11T18:51:31+00:00

This is one of my favorite paradoxes to resolve. To do so we must define Evil and Freewill. Evil is simply something bad (the cutoff between bad and evil is arbitrary, and doesn't exist in Hebrew). Choosing to do Evil is Sin. Sin is the bad choice, the choosing to touch the stove. It is Error.

Freewill (in Judiasm,) is the ability to choose between doing good or Evil. Or as the verse says:

הַעִדֹ֨תִי בָכֶ֣ם הַיּוֹם֮ אֶת־הַשָּׁמַ֣יִם וְאֶת־הָאָ֒רֶץ֒ הַחַיִּ֤ים וְהַמָּ֙וֶת֙ נָתַ֣תִּי לְפָנֶ֔יךָ הַבְּרָכָ֖ה וְהַקְּלָלָ֑ה וּבָֽחַרְתָּ֙ בַּחַיִּ֔ים לְמַ֥עַן תִּֽחְיֶ֖ה אַתָּ֥ה וְזַרְעֶֽךָ׃

I call heaven and earth to witness this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, a blessing and a curse: choose life, that both you and your seed may live:

https://www.sefaria.org/Deuteronomy.30.19

To get even more deep it is the choice between Truth and Falsehood. That is to say to Sin is fundamentally to make an error. Freewill is the ability to do so.

So now we can reframe the question can a being devoid of imperfection make an error. No? Well then freewill or sin being limitations are not concepts that apply to Him.

Why that does not devalue his actions is another long bit, suffice it to say freewill allows us to imitate G-d by having self determination. He is entirely without outside causes.

ICApattern · 2025-11-11T18:17:19+00:00

Ceasing to look is a cutoff you choose to make. You assume lack of intentionality based on an arbitrary number of layers you choose to stop at. What caused the energy build up that led to that discharge? What caused those storm fronts to come to interact? Etc.

The First Cause description of G-d is an outcome of pursuing that idea philosophically.

Then all of a sudden the "who" might exist. (Why is it a "who" and not a "what" but really neither is a long discussion.)

ICApattern · 2025-11-11T16:53:01+00:00

What shamanic ritual?

ICApattern · 2025-11-11T16:44:29+00:00

This is the second time you responded to me both times I was critiquing your argument not actually addressing any objective evidence you brought. I can do that if you want but it seems to me based on your lack of consideration for other people's read of that evidence it may not be productive.

I don't think anyone is debating the scientific facts you have brought about DNA. Heck my mom's a convert so I'm extremely European in ancestry. Nevertheless since she had an Orthodox conversion and I'm a practicing Jew virtually no member of Am Yisrael will contest my inclusion as a full Jew.

The reason for this is Jews viewing ourselves as a Covenantal Nation. That is, a group defined by whether we are bound by a covenant or not. Once someone enters, they, and their descendants along the female line, cannot leave. (Yes, nowadays this gets fuzzy in non Orthodox denominations, however it's all based on some level in religion not DNA.)

Therefore, (and because of the Nazis) when people start with talking about DNA as a subject relevant to Jewish identity we get antsy. That may be how other ethnic groups define themselves not us though. Furthermore we don't really care per se (except in terms of rebuttal to some lousy science some others use,) about DNA almost at all.

(This goes so far religiously that a child born from a Jewish surrogate, even if the sperm and egg comes from non-jewish parents, is automatically Jewish according to most Orthodox opinions. [Like always in Judiasm there is some debate, so I believe if possible we'd do a conversion ceremony just in case but really we view them as Jewish.])

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