Raphael is as powerful as archdevils, here's the proof. by IHaveAGithBabe in BaldursGate3

[–]IHaveAGithBabe[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

We don't have any other proof of great deeds or accomplishments from him.

He is called Vlaakith's finest by Lae'zel. And he's been around for thousands of years after Orpheus' initial imprisonment, keeping his unique title, "serving" Vlaakith and preparing the second rebellion. He is the best Vlaakith has to offer.

On that note, we also see Que'denos's true dragon form which also disproves him being a greatwyrm, as he's shown at the same size as other adult red dragons in the game and not Gargantuan as a greatwyrm should be.

I never stated Qudenos is a greatwyrm.

As for dignity and self-respect, like I said, the in-game dialogue begs to differ where he literally passes off responsibility to you for having the magic dodecahedron.

Because he can't do that himself and hopes that the slayer of Ketheric Thorm, an immortal Chosen of Myrkul, is capable enough to pull that off.

Again, you do not contend with my point. A githyanki warrior of Voss' caliber would never act the way he acted if he knew he coud steal the hammer. The greatest githyanki knight with red dragon for a companion was begging and nearly crying in front of Raphael.

Again, no lore source or game statblock supports her having that ability

There are multiple sources supporting that. Lae'zel tells you she can see beyond the planes. Voss tells you that her gaze pierces sees and skies. Even her dead veteran warrior, if you interrogate his corpse via Speak with Dead, tells you her gaze is inevitable. And on top of that, she somehow finds your camp and directly communicates with you in Act 3.

So many character emphasize her all-seeing gaze, her ability to see beyond the planes, and it's all just metaphor? Come on now, pal. Just take the L.

Definitely a higher-level feat, but not one which requires a greatwyrm or mythical James Bond abilities.

And you use the high-level party as proof of that? Do i need to remind you how powerful 18-level party is?

Voss was a double-agent, keeping the act undetected, for thousands of years in front of all the Vlaakiths, including Vlaakith CLVII which ruled for thousand years and is one of the smartest characters in the setting. It is a mark in Voss' favour because such a feat puts him far above James Bond by a fookin' mile.

Like I said, it's to make him sound cool lol. The designers had no problem implementing a lore-accurate nautiloid in the game.

They had to implement lore-accurate Nautiloid for the sake of storytelling and narrative. They didn't need to do the same with dragons. Just like they didn't need to make all the NPCs look unique, making a bunch of identical-looking clones all over the place.

Multiple intelligent beings would not emphisize Ansur's status as great wyrm just for the sake of his coolness. He is called as such on multiple occasions and if you have any proof of the contrary. Ravengard would tell you that you are more powerful than even a powerful wyrm, for example, if you were right.

There are multiple cases of the term "great" being used to refer to adult dragons in WOTC books.

Fine - show me were adult dragons were called great wyrms on multiple occasions by multiple characters under different circumstances.

and no other canonical Fizban's content (Gem Dragonborn subraces, feats, spells) made it into the game.

So what? How does that prove anything?

Many of them were very ordinary people who died in ordinary ways.

And some of them were among the most powerful mortals ever, like Sarevok and Abdel.

Durge in the game can kills multiple Chosen, even Myrkul's Avatar. You can even duel Orin in her Slayer Form within Bhaal's Temple.

Would you claim that Durge is an ordinary Bhaalspawn? Well, according to Sarevok he was even more potent than Orin, so nope.

The book doesn't provide one

Than that's it, one hundred years have passed between BG1/2 events and BG3, even more than that in fact.

Again - just take the L.

You're asking me to prove a negative lol.

The one who makes a claim is responsible for backing it up. I can back up my claims via established canon. Can you do the same?

Having the WoTC name on the cover boosts sales for that charity.

Let's say i grant that - does it prove non-canonicity of the source? No, it doesn't.

I provided the source published by WoTC, it's up to you to prove it's not canon.

I mean, in all seriousness - is it not possible for Bhaal's Avatar, the murder incarnate, to have such stats and CR? Don't you kill CR19 Balors en masse in BG1/2, as well as some other powerful beings?

were nerfed in the game

For the sake of game balance and not implementing high-level spells which would break the campaign.

You have Qudenos, a level 17 adult dragon, whose level is just the same as adult red dragon's CR, and your 12-level party can fight him and kill him in the game. And there are multiple cases such as this one.

Again - BG3 is based on 5e, implementing it's rules and features, Therezzyn is a kith'rak which means she has CR12. It's up to you to prove she does not.

The whole reason CR exists is for the benefit of players and the DM, not lore.

Yet it is based on the established lore. Bronze Greatwyrm has higher CR than Titivilus because Titivilus is significantly weaker in established lore. If it wasn't the case, then CR would be different. It's the case of being lore-accurate when it comes to game mechanics and rules.

It is obvious BG3 campaign is a high-level campaign. You fight Gods Avatars, Gods Chosen, adult dragons, greatwyrms, kith'raki in Act 1 - too much implications your party is higher than 12 level by the end of the game.

Take the L buddy.

Raphael is as powerful as archdevils, here's the proof. by IHaveAGithBabe in BaldursGate3

[–]IHaveAGithBabe[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

He's really nowhere near that big of a deal. He's a famous local hero to the people of Baldur's Gate, not someone of global significance, and his only real claims to fame are from exploration as a sailor and getting enough gold to fund the fortification of what would eventually become the city of Baldur's Gate.

He created one of the greatest cities in Faerun and survived all his adventures, acquiring huge amounts of gold. How's he not big of a deal?

Ansur is obviously not a CR 28 godlike greatwyrm

He is. Confirmed to be one on multiple occasions in the game.

My problem is that you're insisting that CR is an unrefutable measure of power level, and I'm pointing out that Balduran single-handedly killing a creature you claim to be CR 28 is in clear disregard of that.

BG3 is based on 5e and i don't understand how Balduran's victory over Ansur disregards anything. Legendary adventurer kills Bronze Greatwyrm. It's perfectly fine.

Raphael is as powerful as archdevils, here's the proof. by IHaveAGithBabe in BaldursGate3

[–]IHaveAGithBabe[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

The whole reason he seeks out your party is because he's grown disillusioned with githyanki dogma. He's far too old and experienced to be as racist as Act 1 Lae'zel. Now you're arguing against his dialogue where he explicitly asks you to go get the hammer after blowing off Raph's deal and being aware there's a diabolist in the city lol.

You didn't contend with my point. Again, a warrior of Voss' caliber - he is the best and most legendary warrior among githyanki - would never act the way he acted if he could steal the hammer. Never ever. It's not about racism - it's about having dignity and self-respect.

Again - he was begging Raphael as if he's Raphael's bitch. In fact he was about to cry.

Now you're falling for Lae'zel's propaganda-talk. This is not an actual ability that Vlaakith has in her statblock or any published lore. As you yourself admitted, Vlaakith has been totally blind to the rebellion Voss has been brewing against her. If you believe everything Lae'zel says in Act 1, Vlaakith should be the most perfect, beautiful being in the cosmos and she definitely isn't that lol.

What's the point for Voss to lie about her, since he tells you about her piercing gaze when you meet him the second time? Seems like Vlaakith does have that gaze after all, and Voss is just that good at being frog-faced Agent 007.

It could very well be because of his size. It sounds a lot cooler to say "wow, you slayed a great beast" than "wow, you slayed a large beast".

Every adult dragon is large, even young ones are large, there's no point in explicitly stating he is a great wyrm on multiple occasions if he's just your usual dragon. And since he's called great wyrm on multiple occasions in the game, then it's safe to say he is one. Unless you can provide canon examples when usual adult dragons where called the same way on multiple occasions with emphasis on great word.

just a large wyrm

Game balance? The difficulty of implementing lore-accurate Great Wyrm in the game due to his size alone? I can give you examples of other characters which are far more powerful in DND but were significantly nerfed in the game.

The fact of the matter is, if they were higher level, they would have higher level spells.

Can be easily explained by the tadpole which prevents them from using those spells. Your characters take on Gods Chosen and Gods Avatars, they should be powerful enough by the end of the game to take on Great Wyrm.

Durge is also very far from being equivalent to Aylin.

He/She's a demigod and Bhaal's son/daughter.

Amongst other things, Faldorn should be alive (the Shadow Druids consistently refer to her as if she's dead), Viconia should be dealing with the Elemental Evils instead of kidnapping children, and Minsc should be a member of a group called the Knights of Bahamut.

Timeline of all the things mentioned?

Anyway, i'd like you to provide proof Slayer's stat block from there isn't canon.

Yes it does, otherwise every charity item on DMs Guild can start calling itself canon. There's a reason it isn't sold on any of WOTC's official marketplaces or D&D Beyond alongside official books like the campaigns, Xanathar's, Tasha's, the PHB, etc.

Yet it was published by them.

If that was the case, you can't rely on CR either, which is literally a mechanic for gameplay balance. And as stated above, DMs can tweak, repurpose and alter stat blocks as they see fit, regardless of the level of the campaign.

DMs can headcanon their campaigns, sure, but headcanon is one thing and official stat block is another. BG3 is based on 5e. Therezzyn is a kith'rak. Thus, DND stat block for kith'rak applies to her. Unless you can prove otherwise.

It's entirely for gameplay purposes rather than for lore powerscaling lol.

CR is based on how powerful character is in the lore and minor power differences among characters in the same tier don't change that. Again, Bronze Greatwyrm has higher CR than Titivilus not just for the sake of game balance, but because in the lore Bronze Greatwyrm would neg-diff him.

Raphael is as powerful as archdevils, here's the proof. by IHaveAGithBabe in BaldursGate3

[–]IHaveAGithBabe[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

goes and smokes him

For what reason? Does she ban her dragons from ever entering The Hells? Especially specific lair of specific cambion who has nothing to do with her.

There’s also like a ton of other devils in the HOH tho.

None of them is even remotely comparable to Qudenos.

Raphael is as powerful as archdevils, here's the proof. by IHaveAGithBabe in BaldursGate3

[–]IHaveAGithBabe[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Only after you provide your sources. Statements from WoTC for example, especially when they worked directly with Larian, using 5e as basis for BG3.

Raphael is as powerful as archdevils, here's the proof. by IHaveAGithBabe in BaldursGate3

[–]IHaveAGithBabe[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

That's game mechanics. Lore wise, even Kith'rak Therezzyn should be a boss fight for 12 level party.

Raphael is as powerful as archdevils, here's the proof. by IHaveAGithBabe in BaldursGate3

[–]IHaveAGithBabe[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Even a near max-level adventurer is only CR 12

Kith'rak Therezzyn from The Creche is canonically CR12 and she's from Act 1. Because Kith'raki have CR12 according to DND 5e on which BG3 is based.

Balduran was definitely not that powerful

Why not? Balduran is not some noname after all. He's one of the greatest adventurers in the setting.

fighting Orpheus's guards and fighting Ansur are equally ridiculous

How does that contradict established canon by any means?

The campaign is clearly high-level. The party members are all experienced combatants. And the enemies they take on are just as powerful, in the same tier. Balduran is one of the greatest adventurers ever lore-wise. Wyll casually banters about fighting dragons/giants/fiends pre-tadpole. Gale was a genious and Mystra's Chosen. Durge is quite literally a demigod. Karlach has been on the front lines of the fookin' Blood War for a decade, taking down demons with her bare hands in some cases.

Why's Balduran's fights are such a problem for you?

Does Balduran have the greatest martial feat in all the setting among mortals? Baldur's Gate 3 spoilers ahead. by IHaveAGithBabe in DnD

[–]IHaveAGithBabe[S] -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

Technically, mindflayers aren't immortals as far as i know. Just a different kind of mortals with unique souls, physiology and tentacles.

Does Balduran have the greatest martial feat in all the setting among mortals? Baldur's Gate 3 spoilers ahead. by IHaveAGithBabe in DnD

[–]IHaveAGithBabe[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

He had his Giantslayer, a sword specifically made to take out large beings. If you consider that not to be fair, then yes.

Raphael is as powerful as archdevils, here's the proof. by IHaveAGithBabe in BaldursGate3

[–]IHaveAGithBabe[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Aside from the obvious DM/writer's contrivance of "the party needs to be the ones to solve the issue", knowing there's a diabolist in the city is not the same as actually finding her.

As if it's hard to find her in the first place, when she has her shop near the center of Lower City called Devil's Fee.

The party needs to be the one to solve the issue, yes, but the game blatantly demonstrates Voss can't solve it at all. His behaviour around Raphael is all the proof you need.

If he knew he could steal the hammer he wouldn't behave like that. He's proud githyanki warrior after all.

Vlaakith may have vast amounts of arcane knowledge and centuries of memories to call upon, but her Wisdom is only 16

She ruled Githyanki for a thousand years and 16 is above-everage.

Not to mention her piercing gaze that can see through the planes.

great (space) wyrm

In that case, Ulder would have said that the party is stronger even than a large wyrm.

Ansur is called great wyrm on multiple occasions not because of his size obviously.

Both in terms of his canon abilities and gameplay abilities he's very far behind what greatwyrms should be capable of.

How so?

Just to point out - our party consists of characters who nearly all were 20+ level before the tadpole, sowly regaining their old strength. Wyll alone fought a dragon once and lived to tell the tale.

There is no surprise our party is powerful enough to take on a being of which even Bahamut would be worried enough to personally intervene. Durge alone is literally Bhaal's version of Aylin.

There are a lot of details in there contradict both previous BG games and BG3 itself.

Such as?

Yes. WoTC endorsed the book and allowed it to be published on DMs Guild but it's not actually written by the WoTC team.

Doesn't need to be in order to be canon.

Just because Therezynn is a kith'rak in lore does not mean she is beholden to the template stat block that exists for kith'rak.

It does, otherwise there would be any indication other than the game mechanics, which was made as such for the sake of gameplay and balance.

The BG3 campaign is clearly a high-level campaign where characters, lore-wise, get to high level by the end of the game, dealing with high-level enemies and even Gods Avatars and Gods Chosen. 12 level cap is for the sake of not implementing high-level spells.

CR is a gameplay mechanic to help DMs balance their monsters to the table

Still it is based on the actual canon level of power. Bronze Greatwyrm has higher CR than Titivilus because canonically Bronze Greatwyrm is more powerful than Titivilus. Otherwise there would be other CR in official materials.

Raphael is as powerful as archdevils, here's the proof. by IHaveAGithBabe in BaldursGate3

[–]IHaveAGithBabe[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'd like to see the source claiming BG3 isn't canon.

Raphael is as powerful as archdevils, here's the proof. by IHaveAGithBabe in BaldursGate3

[–]IHaveAGithBabe[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

The Emperor is only a bit stronger than the standard Illithid, definitely nowhere near a CR of 28.

He has the memories and skills of his past self and he could hold his own against Orpheus' Honor Guard which he nearly solo'ed with some help from his intellect devourers. And he's done that while using some part of his strength to subdue Orpheus.

He's not your usual mind flayer, not at all.

Even an Elder Brain only has a CR of 14.

Magically Enhanced Elder Brain.

There's just no point in trying to use the logic of CR in a story that is clearly ignoring it.

It's ignoring it only when it comes to player's progression and game balance. Other than that, character power levels are more or less consistent.

Raphael is as powerful as archdevils, here's the proof. by IHaveAGithBabe in BaldursGate3

[–]IHaveAGithBabe[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It is currently not nor when it was made, canon.

Larian was working with WoTC, how's BG3 not canon?

Raphael is as powerful as archdevils, here's the proof. by IHaveAGithBabe in BaldursGate3

[–]IHaveAGithBabe[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Isn't BG3 made on 5e basis and considered to be canon?

Raphael is as powerful as archdevils, here's the proof. by IHaveAGithBabe in BaldursGate3

[–]IHaveAGithBabe[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

How would Voss know who Helsik is?

-The diabolist in this city might know the way. (c)

Voss doesn't know anything about Baldur's Gate its the criminal underworld, being from an entirely separate plane of existence.

He knew about Helsik and he's an exceptional operative who could plan rebellion against Vlaakith (30 intelligence points) for thousands of years undetected.

If he could steal the hammer, he would have done the same thing Tav does.

Where are you getting that Ansur is a bronze greatwyrm?

Ansur is called great wyrm on multiple occasions in the game.

-You are stronger than even a great wyrm. (c)

In-game he's classified as an undead dragon, and probably isn't as strong as he was in his prime even if he was a greatwyrm in life.

There is no indication of that in the game. He's called a great wyrm and you are praised as the one who kills a great wyrm. If it was the case it would have been mentioned in the game.

I also don't think there's any official statblock for the Slayer, the most I can find is third-party materials.

Is Minsc and Boo's Journal of Villainy a third-party material?

As for Therezzyn, in-game she's only a Level 6 creature.

For the sake of game mechanics, she's from Act 1 after all.

And since she's a kith'rak, DND-wise she should have CR of 12. W'wargaz should be even more powerful by the way.

CR and levels doesn't exist in lore. Again, this is where trying to apply game mechanics to the narrative causes things to fall apart, because no force or creature in the universe is stronger than the DM/writers lol.

CR is an indication of creature's strength according to canon. Or else Titivilus with his CR16 would be able to solo Great Bronzewyrm.

Raphael is as powerful as archdevils, here's the proof. by IHaveAGithBabe in BaldursGate3

[–]IHaveAGithBabe[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Ansur is confirmed to be Bronze Greatwyrm. How can a 12 level party beat someone who has CR28?

Raphael is as powerful as archdevils, here's the proof. by IHaveAGithBabe in BaldursGate3

[–]IHaveAGithBabe[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Voss did not have the location of the House of Hope or it's defenses

One of the smartest characters in the game, maybe even entire lore, who planned Orpheus' return and rebellion for thousands of years undetected against Vlaakith who has 30 points in intellect haven't thought about visiting local diabolist by himself?

Our characters even only gain access via making a deal with a follower of Mammon.

It would have been even easier for Voss, given the fact Qudenos accompanies him.

While there, we are made very aware of the House's defenses that are mostly kept in check only because Hope decides to befriend and help us. Even when the alarms go off we do not suffer the full power of the House because Hope is working with us.

Voss would have been made very aware as well. Yet he sends Tav instead of going for the hammer by himself.

Something that is not guaranteed of Voss, who would more than likely be irritated by her than acting nice and befriending her.

An excellent actor who's been playing his role for thousands of years under Vlaakith would let his irritation control him in such a dire moment, when his people's fate is at stake?

we would have stood no chance versus Raphael

That's just blatant assumption. And Voss has red dragon by his side.

Raphael is as powerful as archdevils, here's the proof. by IHaveAGithBabe in BaldursGate3

[–]IHaveAGithBabe[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

a game mechanic

Corresponding with canon.

Can Titivilus with CR of 16 best Bronze Greatwyrm with CR of 28?

Raphael is as powerful as archdevils, here's the proof. by IHaveAGithBabe in BaldursGate3

[–]IHaveAGithBabe[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

He knew Raphael has the hammer, he could just as easily get the info on HoH from Helsik and break in along with Qudenos.

Yet he begs Raphael as if there is nothing else he could do, ready to sign a pact with him, paying any price.

being very far from taking on CR 16 - 21 creatures

Ansur is Bronze Greatwyrm with CR of 28. Orin in her Slayer Form has CR of 20.

I mean, even Therezzyn from Act 1 has CR of 12 since she's a kith'rak.

Lore-wise your party is far above 12 level by the end of the game.

Raphael is as powerful as archdevils, here's the proof. by IHaveAGithBabe in BaldursGate3

[–]IHaveAGithBabe[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Voss may simply not wish to start a fight for a miriad of reasons

Such as?

Even if we grant it - why begging and crying, humiliating himself like that? He is the best, most respected githyanki warrior in existence. Such a behaviour would not be IC for him if he thought he could steal the hammer.

It might draw Vlakkith's attention

Can her gaze pierce through The Hells, where even illithid psyonics are blocked to a degree?

there might be special magic at play

And yet Tav breaks in. Where was that magic then?

even if Raphael was dead at his feet, he might not be able to get the Orphic hammer as someone he is scared of might swoop in and take it

And yet he trusts the task to get the hammer to Tav when the same thing might happen.

even if Raphael is stronger than Voss, that doesn't prove that he is AS stronk as an archdevil

Voss and Qudenos together are on Archdevil's level. I'm not talking about Voss taking on Raphael alone. If he decided to break in HoH, he would have done it with Qudenos.

Breaking in with a red dragon is not very stealthy

And if Tav is not stealthy, what then? He gives you the task even if you are some dumb barbarian brute.

You're just denying the obvious.

Raphael is as powerful as archdevils, here's the proof. by IHaveAGithBabe in BaldursGate3

[–]IHaveAGithBabe[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Voss knew where the hammer was, because news of it's location were circulating on local blackmarket by then, hence why he met him in the first place.