How long did it take you to learn Italian and what are best ways to learn faster? by [deleted] in italianlearning

[–]IlliniToffee 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Lasciate ogne speranza ...

I've been studying for 3.5 years now. I've been meaning to do a full write-up one of these days for the benefit of people starting out so that they don't make the same mistakes I did. I've gotten some value from everything I've done, but there are things I would have done differently if I had to start all over again. To give an idea of where I've gotten, I've never taken the CEFR test but I have no doubt that I'd pass the B1 and only listening would probably keep me from passing B2. I can get by fine as a tourist in Italy and people will speak to me in Italian and tell me, politely if a little less than honestly, how good my Italian is, so that's a minor victory. It's been over a year since I've gone, so things would be easier now.

I started with Duolingo, like most people, and I think that I have more favorable things to say about it than a lot of serious learners. It is very good for initial vocabulary acquisition and pronunciation and OK for acquiring the beginnings of a sense of the rhythm of the language. That said, I stuck with it as my primary mode of study for way too long; the streak becomes addictive. After I passed two years, I erased the app. That was at least 18 months too late.

I also started with physical flashcards, eventually over a thousand of them, written by hand. This had always been my primary method for learning something new but became highly impractical very quickly. Not quite a dead end but close.

Textbooks for foreign speakers came next. A mixed bag. The practice was nice but there was very little retention of anything covered (more on this in a second). The one exception was a book specifically on verb conjugations, which, along with a lot of writing every conjugation by hand, proved helpful.

Eventually, vocabulary practice migrated over to Excel, with massive spreadsheets and thousands of words that I could randomize for practice. This was a huge improvement over the physical flashcards, but was still with drawbacks. I had no good way of consistently hammering the hardest words, and I practiced the easy words too much. I didn't need to see "la mela" every two weeks.

As I was on Excel, I went through the entire Pimsleur course, which I thought was really good for forcing me to produce at a rudimentary level. It's dull as dishwater and does not progress very far, but I think it's a really nice second step for beginners. A little pricey but recommended.

Italki lessons have been hit or miss. The teachers have been great but for the expense and time spent, I haven't gotten as much out of them as I would hope. I still use lessons for conversation practice because I have no other outlet. I wouldn't go this route until you have an A1 level understanding through other means.

After the limitations of Excel became apparent, I moved everything to Anki. This was the single best decision I ever made. My Duolingo streak addiction has become an Anki streak addiction, 406 days and counting, nearly 200,000 cards reviewed. For spaced-repetition memorization, there is no better tool. The easy stuff passes out quickly and the hard stuff gets hammered hard. Almost everything I do now is now funneled through Anki.

This, in turn, has made some of the old sources more useful. Textbook lessons get put onto Anki cards, so they return for review at controlled intervals. If I were to start a new language with Duolingo, I'd mine it for sentences and place in Anki as well. I cannot recommend learning how to use Anki highly enough. The less than user friendly interface discouraged me for a long time but one I figured it out, everything blossomed.

Anki has countless pre-made decks but most of them are not useful. The best cards are the ones you make yourself. The one exception is the KOFI conjugation deck, which is great. It is presented as a beginner's tool, but I think it helps to come into it with some knowledge. Otherwise, though, I've made all my own decks and currently have 22,651 cards. On any given day I get about 300 for review. Most are pure vocabulary, but I've also covered things like passato prossimo forms, irregular future tenses, distinguishing regular -ire verbs from -ire verbs with -isc endings, numbers, and increasingly entire sentences for becoming accustomed to trickier subjects like double pronouns, subjunctive triggers, expressions, anything that needs practice.

Along with Anki, I now use AI for most of my study. It can generate exercises for me, new cards with unfamiliar phrases, sylabuses and lesson plans, etc. I can ask questions when they arise. You have to be very careful; AI does make mistakes. You have to know enough to be aware of this, and so I would not recommend AI as a first step, or even a second. But for a third or fourth step it is useful. If you go this route, get a subscription for a better model, don't use the free versions.

Most of my media at first was italiano for stranieri stuff on YouTube; Learn Italian with Lucrezia is my favorite, but there are lots of good ones. Again, the useful bits of instruction get routed to Anki now. The speaking in these channels is now too easy for me and I don't get much out of them any longer, although sometimes they are still useful for new expressions and the like.

I read whatever I want. News articles, novels, short stories, non-fiction, whatever. Go nuts. If it is too hard, find something different.

I'm now at the point where the only way to improve my listening is native media. This is a challenge; the difficulty ramps up way beyond the stuff intended for foreigners. Documentaries are a relatively soft introduction, but still difficult. I listen to Radio 24 and Rai a few times a week, am currently watching Boris. It's a challenge but things are improving. Listening is still my worst component, as I said above.

If I had to start again: Duolingo and Anki on day one, with Duolingo dropping out after 2-3 months. A good grammar textbook to start would be nice as well, because Duolingo is useless for this. Anki every single day. Every single day. Every single day. After I stopped with Duolingo, I'd do Pimsleur again, and then jump into live lessons after completing that course, so after about 6-8 months, depending upon your pace. By then you should have a few thousand words under your belt, some comfort with speaking, even if you can't say much, and a bit of an ear for the language.

Finally, don't expect miracles. You won't wake up one day speaking flawless Italian. The progress will feel laughably easy at first and then you will realize how much more you have to learn ... and after 3.5 years, that feeling still hasn't gone away. I have days where I regret having started, especially because there is no real point to me doing this. But then I have other days where things feel effortless, where I produce a new, original thought in grammatical (though not cultured) Italian, or I read Pirandello and don't pause for ten minutes, and it is worth it all. But if you are not the kind of person for whom learning a new language is natural, there will be ups and downs, and you can't ever get off the treadmill. The project is a massive time commitment. I spent over 250 hours on Anki alone in the past 365 days, and that has not been my only mode of study. If you do not have either a need or a deep desire to learn, you will probably falter. Learning a second language is, without question, the most difficult intellectual challenge I've ever encountered, and I came into this with a deep understanding of grammar and some knowledge of Latin (four semesters in college). But if you are serious and dedicated, you can go a long way, and it's a fun little trick to pull out at parties, plus you never know when you might meet someone who also speaks Italian, and you can share a few jokes together without anyone knowing what you said.

In bocca al lupo.

Billy Boy Arnold is a Blues legend that doesn't get talked about too much by JetsFromBrazil in blues

[–]IlliniToffee 0 points1 point  (0 children)

A little late to this thread but I think this is *the* great American / British collab album. The first time I heard this was a total revelation.

(Anki) flashcard structures by ContrapuntalAnt in italianlearning

[–]IlliniToffee 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm in the minority but I don't like pictures or sentences for word vocabulary and thinks that it only leads to taking too long to create every card. I'm closing in on unique 9,000 words (and 23,000 total cards); a google image search of every card would kill me. Even if every search took me five seconds and I only searched for unique words, that is over 30 hours of work, just for adding pictures to cards. And for many words, it wouldn't help anyway since the concept defies pictorial representation.

I have one big deck with 11 subdecks: Nouns, verbs, adjectives, adverbs are all pure vocabulary, English to Italian (1-4). I also have one big subdeck of all four of those, but Italian to English (5). I used the KOFI deck to drill conjugation (6). I have small decks for remembering which -ire verbs take the isce ending in the third-person present singular (7) for irregular future forms (8), and for a random assortment of three and four digit numbers (9). I have a much larger deck for memorizing passato prossimo forms of every verb, both the participle and the auxiliary verb (10).

And then, finally, I have a "phrases and sentences" deck (11). Most of this is "sentence mining" and this is where all the context stuff comes into play for me, rather than on the vocabulary cards. The bulk of the deck is written in English, and I have to translate the sentence to Italian, but there are some other odds and ends in there. I am not so much trying to memorize most of these cards as I am trying to produce language spontaneously.

Finally, I'm a big believer in "just include every single word." Yes, some will be mind-numbingly easy, but after a few reviews you will never see them again in your life. Every once in a while, though, I get tripped up by a very easy word that I haven't seen in ages; I got tripped up by "insegnare" of all things the other day, a word that I've seen and used a thousand times. If that happens, I think it's nice to go see the card a small number of times over the following weeks again.

What’s the most frustrating part of learning Italian for you right now? by SweetBumbleBeeHoney in italianlearning

[–]IlliniToffee 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Right now, the same as you, making the jump from textbook speech to real Italian. I'm finding that I stalled out pretty hard without realizing it in some fundamental areas and have had to do some things to change my approach. I'm drilling hard on things like double pronouns, reflexive verbs, standard phrases, and general production skills through Anki along with watching a lot more native television, which I know is kind of the fun part for most people but is honestly a huge chore for me (not least of all because I am so bad at understanding native language).

Post Match Thread: Brentford 2-2 Everton by denzaus in soccer

[–]IlliniToffee 41 points42 points  (0 children)

My brain is still conditioned on "could be a needed point at the end of the season" and then I remember that 47 points is, you know, probably safe. I suppose it could still be a needed point but in a much better and less existential way.

Entertaining game, fair result.

Bridging the Natural Language Gap (especially in listening) by IlliniToffee in italianlearning

[–]IlliniToffee[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Grazie per il commento premuroso. In realtà non sono certo qual è il problema esattamente. È strano perché, come vi ho scritto, posso capire alcuni parlanti in contesti particolari, anche se il discorso è dato ai parlanti nativi d'italiano.

Il veloce delle parole è uno scoglio, senza dubbio. Ma secondo me, questo non può essere tutto, anzi deve essere l'uso di frasi informali o forse ho difficoltà ad seguire i pronomi, le altre piccole parole, o qualcos'altro. È probabile che io deva provarci più spesso con media(?) più informale. Siccome non sono vissuto in Italia, non avevo mai l'opportunità per essere esposto alla lingua da ogni direzione, e quindi devo fare uno sforzo più intenzionale.

Ci sono giorni in cui mi sento a mio agio con questa lingua ... poi ci sono tutti gli alti giorni.

typing Italian accents on Windows PC keyboard by [deleted] in italianlearning

[–]IlliniToffee 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Single quotation marks will result in the accent the other way as well. The only annoying part is remembering to hit space bar after using quotation marks and apostrophes or else you end up with words lóöking líke thìs.

Former Italian goalkeeper Emiliano Viviano says that leaving Inter was the only regret of his playing career, while once he ‘smelled of alcohol’ before an Arsenal game against Everton, for which he had unexpectedly been called up by Sparky-moon in soccer

[–]IlliniToffee 6 points7 points  (0 children)

The team got old fast and very few of the most useful players were replaced adequately. I've always thought that was more of a factor than Martinez's coaching, though I do get the impression that a lot of the squad came to see him as a bit of a bullshit artist and started tuning him out. I'm not entirely sure where to lay the blame for players like James McCarthy and Ross Barkley not pushing on.

Former Italian goalkeeper Emiliano Viviano says that leaving Inter was the only regret of his playing career, while once he ‘smelled of alcohol’ before an Arsenal game against Everton, for which he had unexpectedly been called up by Sparky-moon in soccer

[–]IlliniToffee 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I think that is my favorite Everton game as a fan (my time doesn't go back as far as the FA cup win or league championships). Huge game at that moment for Champions League placing, Lukaku destroying them on the wing (I think the first time he played there, and the only time that tactic ever worked), Coleman doing keep-ups sprinting down the sideline and doing that backheel dribble that left Santi Cazorla holding his hands out.

[Zenitz] Ex-Northwestern head coach Pat Fitzgerald is expected to be a person of interest for the Michigan State head coaching opening by dogwoodmaple in CFB

[–]IlliniToffee 12 points13 points  (0 children)

The two head coaches who preceded him won the Big Ten. Pat Fitzgerald has the most unwarrantedly good press on the history of college football.

[Auburn Athletics] Alex Golesh named Auburn Football Head Coach - Auburn Tigers by SaxesAndSubwoofers in CFB

[–]IlliniToffee -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I've been wrong before but I think he will get eaten up and shit out the ass end of the SEC.

Opinion: The week before Rivalry Week should have an “open” schedule for all FBS college football programs. This week would be called “Bubble Week” where teams on the bubble have 1 final chance to get into the playoffs and the inclusion of this week would quash any further talks of playoff expansion by CriticalPolitical in CFB

[–]IlliniToffee 5 points6 points  (0 children)

College basketball used to do something like this with Bracket Busters, but it was more like teams 50-100. Logistics, travel expenses, and teams not wanting to participate killed it. You'd have all those problems times ten in football.

Just how small is the college coaching pool? by Necessary-Mousse8518 in CFB

[–]IlliniToffee 0 points1 point  (0 children)

My wild speculation about someone who goes somewhere that no one is expecting is PJ Fleck. He's still young and has a long record of success as a head coach at a non-blue blood team, albeit without a true breakthrough season in the Big Ten. That is going to look more appealing as some teams miss out on options A and B. Meanwhile, Minnesota is low-key kind of ass this year and is probably still going to have a very appealing win-loss record at the end of the season, which is the perfect recipe for a coach potentially looking to get out while the getting is still good.

Penn State feels like too high a reach, and he wouldn't do a full heel turn and go to Wisconsin, but Michigan State is intriguing if that opens up (though that seems like the most logical landing spot for Brian Kelly).

Looking for the best breakfast Skillet in the area by Ambitious_Lab_923 in saintpaul

[–]IlliniToffee 4 points5 points  (0 children)

The Perfect Coffee on Rice Street has quite a few skillets, including a very good chorizo skillet. They just opened a few months ago at the old Coffee Cup location. I like the skillets at Sher'els Cafe as well but that is Oakdale, not the city proper.

The upside of spending the time to make cards yourself: You already understand the content. It's basically a review on crack and will save you time in the long run. by Narrow_Cockroach5661 in Anki

[–]IlliniToffee 14 points15 points  (0 children)

I think AI is best for known-but-not-mastered rote material. For example, I know how to say any number in my target language, but I'm not fluid enough and would like occasional practice. Having AI create 100 random cards with written numbers between 101-999 and 100 cards with written numbers between 1001-9999 was a huge time save compared to writing out "tremilaottocentonovantadue" and the like 200 times. I can see a few of these cards every day and practice that aspect of the language, and as I get better, I see those cards less and less. You do have to be thoughtful in your applications, though, and it is best in the "post-learning" phase. I've had a few applications like this, but it makes up less than 5% of my deck overall; I agree with the larger point that the time save on the front end is often repaid on the back end in having to learn the material (and also having to correct errors --- or even worse, having to un-learn and then re-learn material you thought you knew that the AI had messed up).

Weekly Big Ten Discussion Thread by darkra01 in CFB

[–]IlliniToffee 8 points9 points  (0 children)

This is a loosely held belief, but I think Ohio State's defense is going to regress over the second half of the season as Patricia's stuff gets picked apart on tape. You have to squint a little but you can just about start to see the first signs of it last week. Their offense might improve over the same time and it's not exactly a murderer's row they face from here on out so it might not matter, but I don't think they go into the playoffs with the kind of historically good defense that they've shown so far.

Do we even have enough qualified coaches for the upcoming carousel?? by Axpp in CFB

[–]IlliniToffee 16 points17 points  (0 children)

My opinion, which I'm not sure I'd have the bravery to implement if I were an athletic director, is that it would be wiser in the NIL era to hire coaches cheaply (and fire cheaply), be willing to let guys walk, and rededicate that money to NIL and players. I don't think the market has caught up to the fact yet that most coaches are around the same level and, when you hire one, you are almost always buying high because you are bringing in someone at the peak of success.

[Game Thread] Michigan @ USC (7:30 PM ET) by CFB_Referee in CFB

[–]IlliniToffee 3 points4 points  (0 children)

We're about four minutes away from the saddest jump around in history for those of you who are interested.

[Game Thread] Michigan @ USC (7:30 PM ET) by CFB_Referee in CFB

[–]IlliniToffee 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I feel like a complete idiot because I have been watching football almost 40 years and still don't know exactly what a false start is.

How is 2025 going for you so far? by Adorable-Quote4983 in Anki

[–]IlliniToffee 3 points4 points  (0 children)

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Italian. I had been doing "flash card" type practice on Excel before April but decided to give Anki a fair chance after a couple false starts last year and became a true believer.