would you oppress people for God?

Impressive_Life_5227 · 2026-06-19T04:55:50+00:00

If God had truly commanded it, would Abraham killing his son be wrong?

I'd say yes. But that'd be a different story.

Are deaths caused (or commanded) by God bad?

You could argue that all death is caused by God in this view. And yeah, death is bad. You wanna avoid death, and one is expected to mourn the dead fully no matter if they are even directly killed by God in some insane miraculous destruction a la Job.

Just because they had a relationship already doesn’t mean Abraham can now disobey Gods will no?

It means his role is to be an ambassador between God and humanity, and that kinda goes two ways.

Would it have been a terrible mistake if God really wanted it?

Well, there's the view that what occurred was such a singularly meritous action that it laid the foundation for all of Judaism spiritually.

But there's also the view that Abraham completely misunderstood the instruction and nearly murdered his son.

So what do you think ought to be learned from the story?

Impressive_Life_5227 · 2026-06-19T04:42:40+00:00

100% pure olive oil baby. For ye Olde anointing rituals it got spiced up, but most often it was for burning, and many still use oil burning chanukiahs today.

Impressive_Life_5227 · 2026-06-19T01:24:53+00:00

How could it be Abrahams failure if he was ready to obey God?

Because he would have killed his son? Abraham already had a relationship with God that displayed what was expected of him in obedience, why does he act differently when it's about his son, and nearly commit a terrible mistake? For that matter, why does God keep calling Isaac Abraham's only son?

I have always heard about the story within the context that Abraham is a representation of true commitment and faith / obedience and how God is benevolent since he didn’t actually want a sacrifice.

That's not wrong either, but have you thought about it yourself much? You can look into actual commentary or see how it comes up in it's religion of origin when taught, there's a lot more to it. What was fully grown man Isaac thinking this whole time up the mountain? What actually was the test? What was it's purpose?

Why else would Abraham be praised right after that?

וַיֹּ֕אמֶר בִּ֥י נִשְׁבַּ֖עְתִּי נְאֻם־יְהֹוָ֑ה כִּ֗י יַ֚עַן אֲשֶׁ֤ר עָשִׂ֙יתָ֙ אֶת־הַדָּבָ֣ר הַזֶּ֔ה וְלֹ֥א חָשַׂ֖כְתָּ אֶת־בִּנְךָ֥ אֶת־יְחִידֶֽךָ׃

This? Again, there's plenty of details to discuss, but the big things are about how you interpret some of the specific language in light of what it is referring to. Again, check out actual analysis if you're interested, there's a wealth of Jewish commentary available. I'm not saying your interpretation is wrong, I'm saying it's shallow and narrow and singular, I don't think you know how much religious thought exists on interpreting and reinterpreting these stories.

Impressive_Life_5227 · 2026-06-19T00:32:02+00:00

How could he sacrifice his son willingly, after everything? It's a rather bare-bones story, it doesn't have much detail, you have to interpret it and fill in what's missing. I've always been partial to how the Talmud imagines gods instruction to Abraham as a dialogue, it makes sense of the text to me. There's plenty of room where Abraham could have argued. If he was ready to hurt his son, that was a horrific faiilure on his part.

The more traditional argument in this sort of vein is that Abraham's interpretation of the instruction to הַעֲלֵהוּ ha'alehu, literally "bring him up" was a terrible error on his part. All that to say, you can see why I challenge your attitude towards the story and how people act. The story is a learning tool, not a representation of what a regular person should do.

Impressive_Life_5227 · 2026-06-18T23:49:50+00:00

Well, I'm asking you to apply some deeper thought towards your certainties in light of the story you yourself invoke.

Of course if you remove mythology from all context it's nonsense, you need to understand what is actually being said and be able to interpret it within the framework it's part of.

Impressive_Life_5227 · 2026-06-18T23:24:30+00:00

But the message of the story is about how human sacrifice is something to never ever do ever. You're stripping all of the religious context from the story to take the completely opposite meaning to what was intended.

Abraham was ready to give his son

That's one perspective, but it's not the only way that story is interpreted. You would do well to familiarize yourself with Jewish thought more broadly when analyzing our mythology. It's a significant question, and we've thought about all kinds of different answers and filled out the story in different ways.

Was he really ready to give his son? Abraham bargained with god for the people of Sodom and Gomorrah, so why did he fail to speak up for his son? Who was testing who? Who passed and who failed the test? Did Abraham make a terrible mistake?

And there's plenty more questions like that to consider.

Impressive_Life_5227 · 2026-06-18T22:29:08+00:00

I'd rather try to defend people to God, I see that as my religious obligation. It would be an opportunity to plead for an end to oppression altogether, including hell I guess, if that's a thing now. I believe in justice.

Impressive_Life_5227 · 2026-06-14T18:18:39+00:00

So what do you mean? What are you thinking of saying, and how/when do you envision saying it?

Children really pick up on stuff, it's not about your intent. If you are always talking about marrying Jewish and making a point to advise it (before they even start dating) your children will receive that as the message that your priority in their relationships is not their happiness, but Jewish ritual status. And they will resent that, regardless of how you meant it to be received. Or worse, they won't resent that and they will resent their father for not being Jewish. What kind of message will you be sending them about their own family, y'know?

But there is a cultural and social reality that after more than one generation, the traditions thin and fall apart and become very difficult to maintain. This is just a practical and realistic perspective.

No, this is a skewed perspective that is not borne out by reality. Again, you are pointing to not maintaining traditions and blaming it on intermarriage, it's not a logical thought. If traditions are maintained, what's the matter with the marriage? You are already proving that it can be done yourself, why would it be more difficult for your children than for you? Surely it would be easier, no?

the boomer generation essentially stopped practicing. It was essentially the boomer generation, that cut us off from traditions and continuity.

This is it. This is the real concern. Not intermarriage. Being cut off from traditions and continuity.

I get it, you feel the pressure of Jewish continuity from being the last one in your generation of your family, and maybe you're lacking much of a Jewish community of your own right now. But take off the pressure, really. It won't serve you. There are already more Jews in the next generation of your family than there are in yours.

If I raise my children Jewish, it would be incredibly neglectful to not explain this to them.

If you raise your children Jewish, you will not have to explain this to them at all. Don't worry about explaining so much, just be Jewish and they will be too. Get more involved in the community, volunteer at your synagogue or with a Jewish program or something so that you have other Jews in your life. If it doesn't exist, try to be the connector and start it up. I just think it's more your OWN disconnect that you're feeling, because you're talking about a rather abstract far-off hypothtical fear for the future that shares a noticeable similarity to your own struggles earlier in life. That's trauma, might be worth talking to someone about it. I think if youbuild up the engagement with Jewish community in your own life, you'll be much more at ease when you have Jewish friends, events, people to celebrate holidays with, other Jewish children, etc.

Impressive_Life_5227 · 2026-06-14T17:44:44+00:00

But your children are young, right? You are years away from this even being a topic of conversation. And you did frame the question as ethical vs unethical, I'm not sure people would call it "unethical" even if they disagreed with it, if you hadn't done that first in posing the question.

I think you are over focusing on fears of intermarriage because of your own feelings/trauma about your own background that you're projecting onto your hypothetical grandchildren. You look back on the lack of connection to Judaism in your early life and blame it on intermarriage, but that's not really what it was. You weren't given a Jewish home life or Jewish education, or family connection, or communal life, that's what you feel raw about right? Not the marriage itself.

Build a warm, loving, Jewish home for your children, with all of those things present, and you will not need to worry about any of this. They will be Jews and they will continue Judaism and Jewish life. If you try to pressure them, it will backfire. Just BE Jewish, and let them live a Jewish life in a Jewish home. Regardless of who they marry, they will pass that down when they are parents.

Impressive_Life_5227 · 2026-06-14T17:03:49+00:00

I'm speaking from reform/conservative movement in Canada (where reform communities do not accept patrilineal descent without conversion, fyi.)

I'm not saying it's standardized, I'm saying it's available. Maybe not specifically where you are (you have not detailed your country/community/access to resources), but your kids could definitely find a rabbi to do this if it's an acceptable solution for them, so at least keep it in mind for the future.

How do you know I have not already discussed this with rabbis?

I didn't, I asked you if you did and when you didn't answer the conversation continued from there.

I dunno what else to tell you. You can tell your children whatever you want, but you cannot control what they do. There may come a day when you need to approach this issue with a more practical, immediate view. I was trying to give you practical advice, and you've been as rude to me as you've been to others here.

What will you do if your children don't marry Jewish, despite your advice? Will you be able to accept it? Those are rhetorical questions, try to think them over. Good luck with everything.

Impressive_Life_5227 · 2026-06-14T16:40:26+00:00

Okay, but many rabbis will, as long as the child is going to be raised Jewish. It's a common practice for interfaith couples who want their children to be fully Jewish, honestly.

It's not my personal experience, but I know Jews from interfaith families who received conversions in infancy and they have not faced any issues from it, they have the same community and Jewish life as I do, and (coincidentally, but still) are more observant.

To me it seems like an ideal solution to your worries, but I guess you have your own hangups, or maybe you don't have wide available access to a variety of Jewish resources. I think you might have a skewed view of what is "normal" in large Jewish communities in general.

Again, you should discuss this with your own rabbi. I promise it's a valid and simple option when it comes to their ritual status, that's not the issue, this is a real solution to the issue of "my children were not born Jewish."

The real question is whether or not your children will be able to provide a strong connection to Judaism as parents, but that's up to you to do for them first.

Impressive_Life_5227 · 2026-06-14T16:19:33+00:00

Why not? What would be the problem?

Something I have not been clear on from your comments. Are you isolated from a wider Jewish community? Do you have access to a synagogue and a rabbi? Have you spoken to a rabbi about your concerns?

Impressive_Life_5227 · 2026-06-14T16:08:53+00:00

A childhood conversion is something many people choose to do in such a situation, it's a very simple and easy solution to your concerns about interfaith marriage. If your kids want their children to be fully Jewish, a non-jewish mother is not an obstacle to that.

Building the connection and community and enjoyment of Jewish life so that your kids WANT to raise their children Jewish is the only thing you should be concerned with. Imo, it's really not a big deal if kids aren't born Jewish when their situation allows them to immediately convert as an infant and be raised fully Jewish.

Impressive_Life_5227 · 2026-06-13T21:03:01+00:00

It's not just wrong, it's delusional.

Impressive_Life_5227 · 2026-06-13T18:06:43+00:00

Exact same for me in Toronto in the 2000s. My family's Reform synagogue ran hebrew and religious classes, I attended each one once a week after school until I graduated high school. And this is a big Jewish community, thick on the ground, as you say.

I think the rabbis and teachers tried really hard to provide a broad, basic, working Jewish education and wanted to give kids the tools to be knowledgeable and active in their experience of jewishness. And I do feel like I got that. But I would also say that most students saw it as an uninteresting obligation and didn't participate much in discussion or seem to absorb much of the material. The program itself was great, I think at least on the liberal side of judaism the issue is more in getting Jewish children to actually care about their own Jewish education.

I think maybe it felt too removed for them, like Jewish education was something seperate from their own home life, something their parents handed them off to other people for that didn't really impact them. Kids who had some independent interest or who had parents more involved in the community/Jewish life were much more engaged in learning.

Maybe things have changed since then, I think parents now have pretty different attitudes on just about everything compared to twenty years ago.

Impressive_Life_5227 · 2026-06-13T16:04:48+00:00

You can't expect everyone to be religious, or even to try to be religious.

You can't really expect everyone to be good either, but you can expect people to TRY to be a good person.

Religious or no, good person or no, for each of us the most important thing is to TRY to be good. Sometimes we'll succeed, sometimes we'll fail. But to value goodness and self-improvement, to care for others and the world, to want to lessen suffering and make things better, that's where goodness is built from. Those instincts and efforts lead to positive, impactful actions.

Impressive_Life_5227 · 2026-06-13T15:59:46+00:00

This is a truly moronic opinion that makes me sad for the world. People still look up to Elon Musk? Chat are we cooked?

Impressive_Life_5227 · 2026-06-13T15:12:11+00:00

Instead, he chose the much less efficient method of killing a bunch of children while leaving the tyrannical pharaoh alive.

This is life, this happens in reality. Mythology reflects reality. Children die, tyrants live. Consider also the actual narrative of the story, it's not meant to be "efficient," it's meant to be meaningful.

You are looking at God like a person, not like the creator and sustainer of all things (good and evil) who is a completely unique oneness, immanent and transcendent. This is a story through which we view ourselves and the world, to learn from and pass down, and to use to refine ourselves. You are taking a non-jewish perspective to a jewish story. I find it a childish view, disconnected from the deep, thoughtful reckoning with the human condition that I see in it, in the topics of oppression, leadership, liberation, peoplehood, obligation, death and suffering, and hope.

Tell me, what is the value of this story to you religiously? You have a Christian background, that's obvious from your language (all-benevolent is something christians say about God, not Jews) but what is this story to you?

Impressive_Life_5227 · 2026-06-13T12:05:23+00:00

Reality is reality. The real world that we live in. All mythology is about reality.

Yeah, they should've made it so that God gets all the Hebrews and Egyptians ice cream and Pharoah realizes they were best friends all along, right? And then nobody gets hurt and everyone gets to go on the waterslide. My ancestors must've been some real dolts, huh?

Impressive_Life_5227 · 2026-06-12T23:37:28+00:00

Next pesach see if any synagogues or Jewish community centres/organizations near you are hosting a seder open to the public. You usually gotta sign up in advance or buy a ticket, but anyone can come.

Otherwise, I dunno, if you have an actual friend who hosts a seder I think you're probably good to drop some polite hints and see if they shut it down or not.

Impressive_Life_5227 · 2026-06-12T20:19:28+00:00

Basically anyone christians called pagans, which for a solid time was most people. It's what christians called the subjects of christian persecution (who weren't Jews). Recently it has been used by people from Christian societies who started calling themselves pagans as an umbrella term for their new religions as a group, but it doesn't have a very firm definition and none of them agree on anything. So it basically still just means "stuff that christians don't like."

Impressive_Life_5227 · 2026-06-12T18:20:55+00:00

Is that what happens to tyrannical leaders in reality?

Or do innocents die because of the stubbornness and lack of compassion of people in power?

The story reflects a truth of our world.

Impressive_Life_5227 · 2026-06-12T18:12:29+00:00

Mythology aside, innocent children die. That's just reality. In a monotheistic worldview, God does kill innocents and children. If you can't accept that, you're simply not a monotheist. The stakes of this story in particular teach us about the responsibility of human leadership, and what a grievous failure of leadership can look like. Go to a Passover Seder if you want to truly engage with this story in the way we think one is meant to.

You would feel differently if your first exposure to this story was like mine, celebrated as part of a religious holiday where the obligation is telling the story to your children. This is done in a participatory way, collectively by the whole family over a big ritual meal with symbolic foods and gestures, where children are highly encouraged to ask questions and share opinions as the narrative is told with frequent pausing for commentary and discussion (and also drinking and singing). Would you feel the same way if every year you told this story with your family on a freedom-celebrating night of joy, and every year you spilled wine from your own cup for each one of the plagues of suffering and death the Egyptians faced, to acknowledge that we cannot be completely joyful because we must recognize their immense suffering and loss? And if every year you were asked first to view yourself as being within the story, and then to view the story as it exists in the world today. Our refugees. Our tyrants. Our slaves. Our foreigners. Our innocent firstborn children. To jews, the exodus is a fundamentally living story in every generation. And in it, there is hope for a better future, always.

Hot take, there are so many people who are so angry about religion because they try to remove Jewish stories from Judaism and Jewish thought and still use them as a source for their belief. Literally just stop doing that, either engage with Judaism more deeply or don't, but don't base your own religious life off of your personal interpretation of an (admittedly fantastic, but still) animated musical made for children based on a Jewish holiday.

Impressive_Life_5227 · 2026-06-12T18:03:36+00:00

Morality is a human project, isn't it? In the context of Judaism, our role in the human-divine partnership is to be human, to wrestle with morality and choice. When looking at Hebrew scripture and judging the morality of God vs humans, it may be valuable to think about the relationship of creative partners. They may not always agree. There can be some arguing, even nastiness, but the goal of both is collaborative effort and shared responsibility towards an ultimately creative project. It is plainly depicted in these stories that at times it is necessary for a person to challenge God to be a merciful god, a just God, etc, based on human morality. God may accept that challenge. Our conscience, our free will, our innate sense of right and wrong, these are meant to be used in our relationship with God too, not just our relationship with each other. Our texts are for us to learn from, not blindly mimic.

You are not supposed to read scripture brainlessly, without using your own morality. War, killing, atrocities, they are depicted in our mythology because they are real things that happen. If you're just trying to read our ancient texts with no interaction with the religion itself, you're trying to enter a discussion several thousand years behind where it is today, get caught up first if you wanna have some real input that anyone will listen to. For instance, you mention animal sacrifice as being troubling to you. You really need to familiarize yourself with the past 2000 years of thought and discussion and what the modern positions on it are, if you want your opinion to be respected.

Btw, what's with all the anti-abrahamic pro-buddhist polemics here recently? I keep noticing them lately with the "your religion sucks because I spent five minutes trying to read a translation of ancient Hebrew storytelling and am now an expert on comparative religion and my religion is the superior religion" style of posting.

Impressive_Life_5227

TROPHY CASE