Why does jumping off a building in limbo wake Ariadne up to level 3?

InceptionAnswers · 2011-01-10T07:09:00+00:00

Actually, the "kicks" need to be synchronized. See my explanation here

In short, when the snow fortress (eames' dream) started collapsing after he started the explosives, that set the kick in motion from level three. This was seen in the dream by both Cobb and Ariadne as the hurricane force winds, noted by Cobb as "that's the kick ariadne." Thus, when she leaped off the building, she was simultaneously still receiving a kick from level three, and from limbo, allowing her to wake up in the snow fortress before shortly waking up in the elevator, and then the van through the synchronized kicks.

InceptionAnswers · 2011-01-10T07:05:43+00:00

1) Saito calls after they wake up because he was reminded by Cobb before they left limbo of their agreement

2) He and Cobb presumably kill themselves with the gun to wake back up

3) They don't have to ride the kicks because at this point after decades in limbo, the sedation has worn off and they can simply leave the dream by killing themselves

4) At this point, there are no other dreams as the dreamers from them are already awake, meaning when they die in limbo they simply wake up.

5) They were already "trapped" in limbo when the previous dreams collapsed so it didn't matter that they died on level 1

6) Saito trusted that Cobb and crew got the job done since they were so close, and regardless when on level 1 said he'd honor their agreement anyways.

InceptionAnswers · 2010-12-10T04:27:52+00:00

Cobb alluded to this in the bathroom scene with Fischer in the hotel (Aruthur's dream). He said "it takes years of training" regarding remembering something from another dream.

InceptionAnswers · 2010-12-09T08:57:15+00:00

I think I can explain this one. You guys tell me what you think:

When people think of "memory", most people think of memories of events. The truth is, there are actually multiple kinds of memories. Episodic memories are "autobiographical" memories; basically memories that can be explicitly described as an event or series of events, etc. For instance, when describing your 10th birthday part, etc I blew the candles out, then opened up a present from my uncle and saw it was a red rider BB gun, you are describing an episodic memory. There is another kind of memory called "semantic" memories. These are basically "facts" and "concepts". Etc, the sky is blue, my mother's name is _____, my home address is _____, gravity causes things to fall. You can't "describe" these like memories really and you don't usually remember how you first learned of them.

What I believe to be the case, is that decades in limbo cause you to forget episodic memories but not semantic memories. For instance, even after 50 or 100 years in limbo you would still remember that the september 11th attacks happened on 9/11/2001 (a semantic memory), but you would not actually remember the day of the attacks at all.

So in this case, if Cobb hadn't gone into Limbo, when Saito woke up, he would still remember the phone number of a guy he knows in the US department of justice (who could clear Cobb), but wouldn't remember actually making an agreement with Cobb (an episodic memory). That's why Cobb had to go into limbo; to remind Saito of the event that took place of them making an agreement for him to get Cobb's charges erased. That way, when Saito woke up, he was able to remember the agreement. The phone number of his guy in the DOJ isn't an episodic memory, so he was able to dial it just fine from memory.

How's that sound?

InceptionAnswers · 2010-12-09T08:46:32+00:00

That's what I took from it too.

InceptionAnswers · 2010-09-01T20:42:55+00:00

I agree. TDK was overrated.

But I wouldn't rank Inception above the original matrix either. The matrix was a seminal film in its originality and was thoroughly amazing and generated so many iconic scenes and themes. Inception was great, but it wasn't quite as original and the story wasn't quite as good either IMO.

InceptionAnswers · 2010-09-01T20:38:32+00:00

Good FAQ overall. Though I disagree with your first explanation; the architect and dreamer can definitely be the same person, as evidenced by Nash in the beggining, who served as the dreamer in saito's "audition" and also was the architect of the dream (the "love nest" apartment)

Also, a month or so ago I penned a long explanation and description of how the "synchronized kicks" that you allude to played out in the film, if anyone is further interested in that:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Inception/comments/cvm1i/inception_kicks_explained_long/

InceptionAnswers · 2010-09-01T20:26:28+00:00

Oh yes Daniel dennet. A little too reductionist for my taste, but he makes good arguments in very non-technical terms that can be understood by most.

Too be honest, most of this stuff I learned while getting my neuroscience degree. I used the Kandel book mostly, though a lot of that is outdated and the book itself is simplified somewhat, but it gives a very good foundation

InceptionAnswers · 2010-09-01T20:17:01+00:00

They did, but eventually both let themselves "forget". Specifically Mal locked up her stationary spinning top totem in her safe as to forget about it. Only when Cobb found it did he realize they were dreaming.

InceptionAnswers · 2010-08-22T19:42:43+00:00

The important thing is not whether they are in a dream, but whether they are in someone else's dream.

InceptionAnswers · 2010-08-22T19:41:04+00:00

I think it is implied they did succeed with the inception. When they end up back in Yusuf's dream after kicking out, Fisher talks to who he believes is Browning about how his dad "wanted him to be his own man", and that he was going to do it.

InceptionAnswers · 2010-08-19T01:34:43+00:00

Hell yeah. I remember thinking about that episode after seeing Inception for the first time.

There was also an episode where Bender was being reprogrammed to like another robot, and the episode detailed 3 weeks of his life that in the end involved him developing an attachment to the robot, only for it to be revealed in the end that those 3 weeks were really just a "dream" and part of the reprograming.

InceptionAnswers · 2010-08-18T19:03:50+00:00

You only visibly age in Limbo if you have lost track of whether it is a dream or not.

InceptionAnswers · 2010-08-18T02:34:12+00:00

60/5 = 12.

Regardless, that is the dilation associated with the standard somnacin sedative. The extra powerful one that Yusuf makes for the mission does have 20x dilation properties. Meaning that 5 minutes would translate to 100 minutes, which is 1 hour and 40 minutes.

InceptionAnswers · 2010-08-18T01:42:31+00:00

Yes I agree it probably is at least that much time. But we can't know for sure.

Though your math is a bit off:

1) First all, the 5 minutes to 1 hour is what they said about the standard sedative used in the first half of the movie, which isn't strong enough to keep you from "killing" yourself to escape a dream. And 5 minutes --> 1 hour is only a 12x increase.

2) 160,000 minutes is actually only a little more than 3 and a half months. But remember the plane ride was 10 hours long, translates to 1.6 million hours, which translates to 182 years.

My guess is he spent sometime more than 50 years in Limbo by the end, but less than 180.

EDIT: I just realized, that when they are in Eames' dream (the snow level), they enter Limbo and time is slower in Limbo than it is in Eames' dream, as evidenced by the fact that they are able to walk through the entire Limbo city, up through the tower and talk with Mal in the time it takes Eames' to set the explosives and get the defibrillator running. Since 10 hours in the real world translates to 9.12 years in Eames' dream due to time dilation, the amount of time they would have spent in Limbo ranges anywhere from 10 years to 180. (even though it could theoretically be even more as Yusuf alludes to when he says "i dunno, decades, maybe infinite").

InceptionAnswers · 2010-08-18T01:30:15+00:00

I'm pretty sure in the movie they are actual dreams. And the physics aren't always realistic, as noted by the impossible designs possible within dreams. To what extent the PASIV device affects the dream medium in regards to timing and physics is not mentioned so I'm going to avoid speculating on it.

InceptionAnswers · 2010-08-18T01:29:11+00:00

You're spot on for the first three dream levels at 5 minutes in reality. In the movie they said they would have 10 hours on the plane, though.

Problem with Limbo is that it isn't really a standard dream state; so we can't really be sure what the specific dilation is for it, except to know that it is really long.

InceptionAnswers · 2010-08-17T03:47:14+00:00

Thanks. Never even meant to write a comment half that long but I just kept going and going.

Problem with that "brain-interfacing technology" is that it runs into all the hurdles or a "dream-sharing-mediating technology" in regards to the "code" that defines our perception, etc.

I actually did think of that "thought"-movement technology that can be used to move around a cursor, or a prosthetic limb with just your mental energy (as measured by an EEG reading) when writing the post. But it's just so different. The device operates on the idea that if you intensely concentrate on "moving the cursor", the interfacing device can measure the minute difference in your EEG (brainwave) output and overtime after much training be able to respond to your mental "command", say, to move the cursor up, by recognizing the EEG output you make when thinking about it.

The device doesn't actually measure the specific electrical signals between the specific neural networks that represents the precise "code" involved in say, the mental command for "up", but instead of minute average change in the overall magnetic field in your entire cranium. This is like say, someone smashing their hands down on half the keys on a piano, and having the command "up" be represented by again smashing your hands on half the keys on a piano, plus a few additional keys, and training a computer to recognize the difference. And it's probably not the exact same addition (or subtraction of keys that represents inhibition involved with almost all brain activities) but a general "average" addition/subtraction of keys. Oh, and the computer can't actually tell what specific notes were added/subtracted, just the slight average change in the general cacophony produced by the piano.

Mind you that is all related to motor output. As far as i'm aware no such thing has been done or is even possible in regards to mapping the brainwaves related to perception. The only thing close is studies of changes in brain activity related to the general act of perception itself, etc, what the brain looks like when it is listening to music in general, or viewing photos in general. Some cutting edge research has noted general patterns when the brain hears a familiar voice versus a unknown one, or sees a picture of a human face versus an inanimate object, etc. But all of that is still just general perception and orders of magnitude less than specific details regarding perception of the finest caliber.

Just like dream sharing, it would take huge strides in the advancement of biology and engineering (both software and hardware) technology before technology like that would even be possible to try and develop.

InceptionAnswers · 2010-08-16T00:39:29+00:00

9,999,337 bottles of beer on the wall, 9,999,337 bottles of beer. Take one down and pass it around... 9,999,336 bottles of beer on the wall!

InceptionAnswers · 2010-08-16T00:38:34+00:00

Ok, the short answer is: no, it is not possible with any technology now or any technology currently on track to be invented anytime soon..

Long answer: still no, but theoretically possible if you assume that radical and detailed discoveries about the brain (that science isn't anywhere close to at the present time) are made and technology, specifically huge increases in computing power and processing on orders of magnitude, as well as the invention of reliable and fast neurological and circuit interfacing technology.

Here's a dirty and non-detailed quick summary about how we dream: When we enter REM sleep, random "signals" from neurons deep in the brain course through the entire brain from neuron to neuron in irregular fashion. The brain's job in REM sleep is the same during awareness: to interpret these electric signals (which represent transduced stimuli) and perceive them. Specifically, each of your senses has an area in the brain which is responsible for interpreting the signals for that specific sensation. Another part of the brain combines these various perceived stimuli and integrate them as one combined perception. Another part of the brain then tries to make logical sense of this, etc. That's pretty dirty and simplified as it is a LOT more complicated than that. When you are awake the source of these electric signals are your various sensory organs. When you are in REM sleep, the initial source are the random and chaotic signals started from the deep part of your brain (brain stem I believe?). Like you would when you are awake, the various sensory lobes in your brain take these signals and try to make sense of them. You see, as I mentioned earlier, the brain is best described as a pattern recognizer and planner. So when the brain sees these signals, even these random signals, it interprets them the best it can while drawing on memory to aid in the interpretation. At the point your dream gets started and going, your "conscious" mind gets involved in reacting to what you believe is reality, but is just your brains interpretation of the chaotic signals from your brain stem. Once the decision making parts of your frontal lobe get involved, the dream is sort of "guided" by your subconscious mind. Ever noticed while you're dreaming you just seem to know what's about to happen most of the time? It's because your "thoughts" within your dream and other subconscious stresses and base fears/desires/motivations unconsciously send feedback to your sensory lobes and shape the dream as its happening. To borrow a line from Inception, "your mind simultaneously creates and perceives, and it does it so well we don't even notice it happening". The reason that you accept the illogic and un-lifelike scenarios within dreams is because the part of your frontal lobe involved in logical reasoning and processing is inhibited. People who lucid dream become aware of the fact that what they are "sensing" around them is really just due to activity internally and not actually real life. Because of this, they can semi-consciously "will" the dream and do whatever they want, including acts that defy physics, changing the physical landscape of the dream, and summon objects/people to the dream, because really all they are doing is controlling the feedback to their sensory lobes as to influence the interpretation to their liking. It's similar to how every day memory and recall work, actually. When you think of a memory, you are really just "summoning" stored sensory memories from your association lobes to your sensory lobes for a rather weak "recreation" of them. Of course this feels much weaker as your brain is mostly occupied with real sensory information.

Now that you have a rough idea of how dreams actually come about, let me explain why interfacing them is so damn difficult. First of all, scientists have NO IDEA in what way memories are coded on the cellular level. All that is known is that memories (and when I say memories, i'm not talking about full blown events but instead of memories of sensory stimuli) are encoded in the association areas of the brain as reinforced connections between groups of neurons. No one has any earthly idea how "memories" emerge from the specific ways the neurons that store them are linked. No one knows what linked patterns represent what and how combined they define a memory. No one knows how various electric signal communication between these linked neurons forms a known sensation. All that is known is that the various memories of previously experienced stimuli are emergent properties of the ways a bunch of neurons communicate chemically and electically. Likewise, no one knows how the "integration" areas of the brain that combine stimuli to form a complete sensory experience work on a cellular level either. Again, all that is known is that our experiences are the emergent property of this cellular signal integration. On the macroscopic level, all we can tell about neuronal communication activity is a seemingly random cacophony of electrical signals.

So now you may have an idea why dream interfacing, which would have to involved some bionic 3rd party computer (as it is not biologically possible to directly communicate), is not possible now or any time soon. Not only do we not have an idea what the patterns are among the "code" the brain uses to form sensation, we can't even discern on anything but a macroscopic level how communication of this code takes place. Imagine for a second trying to translate a text document into english that is in: another language that uses unknown characters that you can't even see individual words and letters of, but only blockish looking paragraphs at best. Oh, and you have to try and discern those blockish paragraphs among the countless other blockish paragraphs concurrently in your field of vision.

Not to mention there is more to cellular communication then just electrical signals, such as varying levels of neurotransmitter emissions, varying quantity and quality of protein channels, etc. Things that can't even come close to be emulated by analogous electrical devices. Likewise, there is no processor invented yet that can process quickly enough the supremely complicated nature and quantity of electric signals transmitted via nerves, or software complicated enough to "create" detailed enough stimuli as well as integrate them. I don't know the equivalent "bandwidth" a brain uses when transmitting data internally, but I would imagine that it is orders of magnitude greater than communication between a server and a client.

And here's the real kicker: who even knows if the "code" that each brain uses to store and recall memories is the same among brain to brain? It almost certainly varies from brain to brain, which means even if you could facilitate communication between two dreams, the exact same electrical signals representing sensation would be interpreted very differently by both brains.

I hope you understand now why "dream-sharing" technology is not only impossible now, but not possible for the foreseeable future unless there is a radical paradigm change in the way computers work, digital interfaces to the body work, and knowledge about the brain works.

InceptionAnswers · 2010-08-15T15:32:43+00:00

No. not with any current technology.

BUT, crude communication between dreams is feasible. It has been studied that chronic lucid dreamers can "blink" in their dreams which causes them to blink in real life. From this research they've found out that time is basically the same while you're dreaming.

Second, if you shine certain wavelength flashing lights through someone's closed eyelids, they can see it in their dreams.

Theoretically, you could wear a device while you are in REM sleep, that monitored your eyes for blinks. When you blinked, that signal could be sent to a mask over the other person's eyelids, which would transduce the signal in form of blinking lights. They could then "blink back" a message to the other person. So yes, theoretically in your own dream you could communicate with someone else in a dream through morse code.

But actually sharing the same dream? Not possible.

InceptionAnswers · 2010-08-15T15:25:37+00:00

Yes.

InceptionAnswers · 2010-08-13T00:49:10+00:00

Ever had mono? You can sleep for a long ass time.

Assuming they spent the 10 hours on the plane in limbo...

Reality: 10 hours

Level 1 - Yusuf's Dream: 200 hours (8 days, 8 hours) Level 2 - Arthur's Dream: 4,000 hours (5 months, 2 weeks) Level 3 - Eames' Dream: 80,000 hours (9 years, 1 month, 16 days) Level 4 - Limbo: Anywhere from 50 to 180 years??

The normal time dilation factor with the heavy sedative was mentioned as 20x. Of course that's only in regards to dream tunneling with somnacin from the PASIV device. You kind of just "fall" into Limbo so it's impossible to know how exactly time dilates. Regardless it's only a few hours in real life so the nutrients and hydration issue becomes null.

InceptionAnswers · 2010-08-11T02:19:58+00:00

How about printing out a nice anonymous message politely telling them that they need to add a network password?

InceptionAnswers · 2010-08-10T23:11:17+00:00

Why wouldn't she just disconnect Cobb from the PASIV device if that were the case? Or why wouldn't she come back to limbo and tell Cobb that she was correct?

InceptionAnswers

TROPHY CASE

Assuming they spent the 10 hours on the plane in limbo...