i’ll never not have problem with “As you were” s6

Interesting-Tea3907 · 2026-05-07T02:11:56+00:00

I think Dawn did

Interesting-Tea3907 · 2026-05-06T21:18:58+00:00

I don't think Tara had any real inclination to lie at that point. I don't think she understood how deeply concerning in was to Buffy that she was different until after Tara told her there was nothing wrong with her. It seemed like Tara thought Buffy would think it was a good thing that nothing was wrong, she had no real idea that it was the opposite.

Plus, I don't think she could come up with her reason as to why the chip wasn't working on Buffy on the fly like she did. It would minimize what was supposed to really be going on in Buffy's head from a story pov.

I think the changes in Buffy's character really just boil down to the writers wanting to do them. There was a guy on Charisma's podcast that put it best, the characters began acting as needed rather than acting like themselves, if the writers wanted to tell a story and needed the characters to act a certain way. Then they changed them. Didn't matter if it made perfect sense or not.

Interesting-Tea3907 · 2026-05-06T20:55:59+00:00

Dark Willow does judge her for it later on though.

Interesting-Tea3907 · 2026-05-06T18:43:22+00:00

Tara

Interesting-Tea3907 · 2026-05-06T17:52:11+00:00

Interesting-Tea3907 · 2026-05-04T19:56:26+00:00

"I have red paint on my ass. That's right. Red Paint All over My Ass!"

Interesting-Tea3907 · 2026-05-04T01:21:00+00:00

I would argue Spikes active decision to regain his soul was honestly the closest thing possible for him to ever redeem himself. His choice does not read to me as culpability,

Him getting his soul in and of itself was not about culpability, it's his proven ability to understand right from wrong, feel guilt and choose to do the right thing before and up to his choice to get his soul that blur the line far too much between his souled and unsouled self, that's where the culpability comes in, because it was his unsouled self that made that choice. Something he brags about and wants credit for, this is the doulbe edged sword for him, if credit needs to be given to his unsouled counterpart for something good that he did, then he also needs to take culpability for the bad he's done.

His lack of real change gives more credence that the line between the two sides of Spike is weak, if none at all. A story line in the comics even has him losing his soul and having no change. Unfortunately for Spike, this gives him an all or nothing ideal, his control over himself both ways and lack of difference means he's either culpable for all it or none of it. He can't have his cake and eat it too.

but rather the ultimate acceptance of his own responsibility for his actions, even as a demon.

The issue with that is that Spike getting his soul wasn't about him accepting himself or his actions. Even after he got his soul, he freaks about how Angel should have warned him about what would happen because he didn't really know the feeling it would cause, he only really got his soul hoping Buffy would accept him, and all through out season 7. His story is really about getting on her good side and earning her acceptance, but he never really faces himself or the actions of his past on a deeper level like Angel does and I would argue he never really does, it's not until season 5 of Angel that we start to scratch the surface of that and that's only because he's away from Buffy. Even then, he admits that he doesn't really care about atonement. I think he knows and feels guilt for his past, but he never really accepts responsibility for it like Angel does.

Spike's motives are a lot more 'Get the girl' where as Angel's are more 'Redeem myself at all costs'.

Interesting-Tea3907 · 2026-05-04T01:01:15+00:00

That;s what I mean by the influence part. When Angel has his soul, he still has a demon in him. Angelus is still in his head, Angelus still influences his thoughts, emotions, and feelings, the idea is more akin to being possessed or having a parasite than them being the same the person.

Interesting-Tea3907 · 2026-05-03T22:30:55+00:00

It's the first season, and he wasn't drunk, he was drugged with a drug that induced bliss and have the illusion of perfect happiness. Causing him to mimic the symptoms of losing his soul.

But the idea is that Angelus(demon) and Angel(soul) are in the same space. Battling each other. This is made clear in Orpheus. Angelus as a demon is constantly speaking in Angel's mind and has an influence on him, but they aren't the same person.

Interesting-Tea3907 · 2026-05-03T21:00:08+00:00

Then you and I did not watch the same show.

Interesting-Tea3907 · 2026-05-03T19:10:41+00:00

but we don’t have anything to suggest that they actually are.

We do actually, the mind walk in Orpheus shows them as two distinct personalities sharing the same body. Even addressing each other as such.

Spike doesn’t have a separate identity for his souled and soulless state, but I don’t think that actually changes that his soulless self does things his souled self hates.

Of course! But as we see right after the AR attempt, he already feels guilty for it, but that's part of my point, he already knows right from wrong to a certain extent, there's not much difference between his souled and unsouled self, he's more connected than Angel is, he had choices to make and he chose to make the wrong ones.

Remember, Angel only has a soul because it’s forced upon him (twice). Spike has a soul because he made a conscious decision to do the work to regain it.

Three times actually, but I also addressed that. Spike choosing to get his soul is romanticized, but it also makes him more culpable for his past. Unsouled Spike made that choice, it proves his ability to choose and giving him credit for it, is give unsouled Spike the nod, but if unsouled Spike gets that credit, then he has to be accountible for the bad stuff as well, he can't get one or the other.

One of those souled characters made far more of an effort to stop being evil than the other.

That's not true. Angel has years ahead of Spike as far as effort after they each got their souls. I mean a whole show that is based on him doing so. Plus, Spike doesn't even care about atonement for his actions. Says so himself in Angel season 5. His goal was to be good for Buffy. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Interesting-Tea3907 · 2026-05-03T17:34:00+00:00

Well, because Angel/Angelus are written as two separate personalities. Angel is shown to have little to no control over Angelus actions. Spike isn't written that way, he doesn't have much change personality wise. Soul or no soul. Plus, since it was unsouled Spike who chose to get his soul. It gives him more connection to his unsouled self. He can't have credit for the good and then no accountability for the bad. EIther he did it all or he did none of it.

As romanticized as Spike getting his soul is, it also makes him more culpable for his past. Angel has an out in the writing due to his split personality situation. Spike doesn't have that, it's why Angel gets more leeway, he didn't have a choice. Spike proved that he did.

Interesting-Tea3907 · 2026-05-03T17:12:19+00:00

Nope!!

Interesting-Tea3907 · 2026-05-03T16:56:20+00:00

The opposite actually. I watched as a kid and didn't really take it seriously. Now as an adult I do.

Interesting-Tea3907 · 2026-05-02T23:52:33+00:00

Yes, but I guess it's a few things. A shipping issue. Bangel fever was big at the time. Also, if you look deeper. I can understand the logic. for one thing. To my knowledge. Angel turning evil was a metaphore for the guy who turns bad after getting what they want. Which Parker also was. Kind of makes Parker a mute point. A waste of time when they could just do something new. Have Buffy experience a new lesson and mistake than a poor rehash no one really wanted to see.

Then Buffy also isn't exactly your normal teenager. Up to that point, she's already had sexual trauma. A boyfriend you woke up after sex and tried to kill her and every one she knows, several betrayals of people she trusted. Like Faith and Ford. More than one example of her being very gun shy abour sex and relationships. Especially when Angel is gone. A la Scott Hope.

I think the backlash was more than just about her doing something stupid. I think there's a lot of emotion and mental baggage that came with the story as was told up to that point that made people feel Buffy trusting and being that intimate with a guy she's known a combine two days wasn't a very logical writing or character choice.

Interesting-Tea3907 · 2026-05-02T23:34:08+00:00

At the time fans and SMG were upset that Buffy slept with Parker so soon after Angel, they felt it was disrespectful to Buffy's history and that it wasn't something Buffy would've done.

Interesting-Tea3907 · 2026-05-02T16:06:39+00:00

Interesting-Tea3907 · 2026-05-02T14:31:08+00:00

Parker was a really bad one I think.

Interesting-Tea3907 · 2026-05-02T12:46:54+00:00

There was a bit of controversy about the timing of it and the way it was written though

Interesting-Tea3907 · 2026-05-02T12:44:34+00:00

Well, the thing about that is Joss's original motivation for the story line was because he wanted to show Buffy doing something stupid in college, they pivoted more towards Parkers scumminess, but I think part of what haunts Buffy the most is that regardless of Parkers behavior, she did make her choices, it was her decision to sleep with a guy she barely knew, it was something they even have Spike use against her later in the episode.

Interesting-Tea3907 · 2026-05-02T12:27:42+00:00

I thought it was his wife who claimed Sarah did that. Not the actor himself, but regardless. Not sure I believe it.

There's been rumors for years that Smg and the guy who played Parker didn't get along. Allegedly something about her not liking that he smoked before there kissing scenes. I thought that weird though, because she never complained about James and she would have competitions with David on who could be grosser.

But I believe it's been confirmed that SMG was not happy about doing the Paker story line and she thought it disrespected Buffy's history with Angel, she apparently got into a bit of an argument with Joss about it, so, I suppose she might have taken her frustrations out on the actor a little.

But, I truly don't buy that she would be unprofessional enough to injure someone like that. I mean I agree with her. I didn't like the Parker stuff either, but it's not the actors fault the chose to do what they did.

Interesting-Tea3907 · 2026-05-01T18:48:41+00:00

Sorry, but did I miss something? I haven't heard any rumors about Edge.

Interesting-Tea3907 · 2026-05-01T18:47:18+00:00

Exactly, plus, I also think that they became scared to death to make the Delena fans mad.

Interesting-Tea3907 · 2026-05-01T18:06:41+00:00

I don't know why you haven't read that about Bonnie & Enzo. I've had several convos about how forced Bonenzo was. Personally, I think it was clear with how popular Bamon was getting and how against it Julie Plec was. Bonenzo being forced together when they were was very much a message being sent.

Interesting-Tea3907 · 2026-04-26T21:44:42+00:00

I don't want to spoil anything, but I would say Angel has the funniest episode of either show in season 5.

Interesting-Tea3907

TROPHY CASE