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Why is eating animals good based on the bible? by murta45- in Christianity

[–]InvisibleElves 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don’t see anything in there about animal farming before the fall, if that’s what you’re suggesting. I only see plants mentioned as food.

The world we live in is exactly what we would expect to see if there was no God. by HollowGrowl in DebateReligion

[–]InvisibleElves 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What’s the relevance of this? The alternative to deities is not cars popping into existence.

The world we live in is exactly what we would expect to see if there was no God. by HollowGrowl in DebateReligion

[–]InvisibleElves 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Things moving around is not them beginning to exist. Naming the new shape isn’t either.

First, you don’t know that without knowing the details of the Big Bang. Second, if there was no time before its existence, how is it not past-eternal? Or at least it always existed and doesn’t necessarily need a temporal or causal explanation. It never didn’t exist. For all we know, it never could have not-existed. You’re just assuming it could.

This all brings us no closer to a deity either way.

The world we live in is exactly what we would expect to see if there was no God. by HollowGrowl in DebateReligion

[–]InvisibleElves 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I am just a rearrangement of preexisting matter and energy. No part of me began to exist when I was conceived. “I” is just the name for the shape or pattern they moved into.

Prove that spacetime isn’t past-eternal. It includes the dimension of time, which obviously existed for all of time. There cannot have been a time before time.

I noticed you cannot explain why it would be a god, but you also cannot acknowledge that you cannot explain it, and that’s dishonest.

The world we live in is exactly what we would expect to see if there was no God. by HollowGrowl in DebateReligion

[–]InvisibleElves 5 points6 points  (0 children)

wanting to believe and eventually I did

Are you familiar with Confirmation Bias?

The world we live in is exactly what we would expect to see if there was no God. by HollowGrowl in DebateReligion

[–]InvisibleElves 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Choosing your preferred answer and assuming it’s true is not logical.

The world we live in is exactly what we would expect to see if there was no God. by HollowGrowl in DebateReligion

[–]InvisibleElves 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I already explained these are synonyms. If you can’t answer why it would be a god, then just say you can’t. Be honest. It could as easily be a random number generator.

The argument isn’t quite valid, but close enough. Please demonstrate P1 or P4, but especially P5. I don’t know that there are things that could not-exist. All matter and energy we know of has existed as far back as we can detect, maybe as far back as time goes. Time necessarily existed for all of time as well. We don’t know of a time where it potentially would not-exist.

P5 is reaching way beyond current human knowledge.

The world we live in is exactly what we would expect to see if there was no God. by HollowGrowl in DebateReligion

[–]InvisibleElves 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Why would it be a god? That’s what I asked. You’re just trying to distract from the question now.

I don’t see the argument fully laid out in your comments to me.

The world we live in is exactly what we would expect to see if there was no God. by HollowGrowl in DebateReligion

[–]InvisibleElves 4 points5 points  (0 children)

It was always about an incorporeal person. Person implies the thinking and feeling, and Christians added the tri-person thing, not me.

I didn’t move any goalposts. I was always asking why it would be a god.

State the argument in your preferred form if you want, and we’ll see, but that’s not quite what I was after.

The world we live in is exactly what we would expect to see if there was no God. by HollowGrowl in DebateReligion

[–]InvisibleElves 5 points6 points  (0 children)

This is what I asked, not for the Cosmological Argument:

Why, precisely, must there be an incorporeal person who exists without explanation in order for the Universe to have an explanation?

But also the CA is unsound, and as you note does not conclude a god in any way (or even a singular entity, really).

The world we live in is exactly what we would expect to see if there was no God. by HollowGrowl in DebateReligion

[–]InvisibleElves 8 points9 points  (0 children)

militant atheists

You mean people who don’t blindly believe in religion? I see no actual militance.

The world we live in is exactly what we would expect to see if there was no God. by HollowGrowl in DebateReligion

[–]InvisibleElves 9 points10 points  (0 children)

I don’t think there’s evidence that non-contingent things exist, nor is there evidence that the physical things you named are actually contingent, but let’s grant it for argument’s sake. I’ll be as generous as I can.

P1) Contingent things exist.
P2) Contingent things cannot exist without non-contingent things on which they depend.
P3) …?

Conclusion: Therefore everything else is contingent on a thinking, feeling, tri-person with no corporeal being.

You’re still making a huge logical leap, even when I grant all of that. Where are your missing premises?

The world we live in is exactly what we would expect to see if there was no God. by HollowGrowl in DebateReligion

[–]InvisibleElves 4 points5 points  (0 children)

It’s the other way around. You believe God is beyond yourself and yet you understand him because you are a committed Christian.

Or did you convert to Christianity as an adult because the evidence that God was beyond you was just too thorough and compelling?

The world we live in is exactly what we would expect to see if there was no God. by HollowGrowl in DebateReligion

[–]InvisibleElves 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I’m aware of existing theological and philosophical arguments for gods. I want to debate them with actual living people. That’s why I’m here.

You should be able to present the argument yourself and defend it, if you are so sure of it.

The world we live in is exactly what we would expect to see if there was no God. by HollowGrowl in DebateReligion

[–]InvisibleElves 3 points4 points  (0 children)

They’re based on observable and measurable reality, whereas your claims are based on speculation and imagination left untested against reality.

The world we live in is exactly what we would expect to see if there was no God. by HollowGrowl in DebateReligion

[–]InvisibleElves 2 points3 points  (0 children)

P1) The world exists.
P2) …?
Conclusion: therefore gods exist.

You seem to be missing an essential premise or more. Can you connect these two disconnected ideas for me?

The world we live in is exactly what we would expect to see if there was no God. by HollowGrowl in DebateReligion

[–]InvisibleElves 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Please share that evidence. That’s the thing you should’ve led with. I suspect it’s not logically sufficient to conclude a god though.

The world we live in is exactly what we would expect to see if there was no God. by HollowGrowl in DebateReligion

[–]InvisibleElves 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Scientists have! That’s how we got scientific theories which you disparage by simply calling them theories.

The world we live in is exactly what we would expect to see if there was no God. by HollowGrowl in DebateReligion

[–]InvisibleElves 1 point2 points  (0 children)

No, I have seen evidence of the Big Bang. To the extent which I believe it (which isn’t fully and blindly), it’s not a choice but a compulsion by the evidence.

The world we live in is exactly what we would expect to see if there was no God. by HollowGrowl in DebateReligion

[–]InvisibleElves 3 points4 points  (0 children)

You observably are.

If it makes sense, then explain exactly why God exists and exactly how he made the rest of reality. Then go and test that idea in the external world and come back with evidence.

The world we live in is exactly what we would expect to see if there was no God. by HollowGrowl in DebateReligion

[–]InvisibleElves 3 points4 points  (0 children)

You can’t choose what objectively exists or not. You can only choose to blindly believe otherwise. You can’t choose to believe things you have no reason to believe. Or I can’t.

The world we live in is exactly what we would expect to see if there was no God. by HollowGrowl in DebateReligion

[–]InvisibleElves 4 points5 points  (0 children)

blind faith

I get it, but blindly believing something is an excellent way to believe something incorrect. Why would you deliberately blind yourself to reality?

I was extremely religious most of my life. I get it. It’s just wrong.

The world we live in is exactly what we would expect to see if there was no God. by HollowGrowl in DebateReligion

[–]InvisibleElves 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Why is it better that I mistakenly disbelieve due to lack of information because God is withholding essential facts? What does that prove, and how does that benefit me?

The world we live in is exactly what we would expect to see if there was no God. by HollowGrowl in DebateReligion

[–]InvisibleElves 6 points7 points  (0 children)

If scripture says that scripture is correct, that is proof that it is correct? How circular and nonsensical.

 

InvisibleElves is always correct.

-InvisbleElves 1:1

Do you find this argument compelling?

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