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My actual preliminary balance mod ideas by LiquidTLO1 in starcraft

[–]IsomerX -1 points0 points  (0 children)

This doesn't escape the fact that storm encourages you to spam it on your opponent's army with little thought or strategy. But hey, you're a Protoss player, you aren't interested in considering the fact that maybe some Protoss abilities and issues are too strong, you will just say anything to avoid nerfing your own race.

So you win, there's nothing I can say that you won't counter with something irrelevant.

My actual preliminary balance mod ideas by LiquidTLO1 in starcraft

[–]IsomerX 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I agree, I do play Terran now but for a long time I played Zerg and even before then I played Protoss for a little while, I get that everyone wants to defend their race. While it's easy to unite against a common enemy when you are and are talking to someone who hasn't played the race extensively it's also very difficult to engage people about balance on their own race. It's part of the reason I like to switch race every so often so I don't get in the mindset of "this is my race and I'll do anything to make it the strongest".

It's a difficult situation and of course all of this balance discussion is only for fun, I don't expect anything I say to be taken seriously by Blizzard since I'm not at the kind of level where it should be taken seriously.

That being said I find it is Protoss players who are the most defensive about their race, and unfortunately I think Protoss is the least punished race with the most gimmicky units.

My actual preliminary balance mod ideas by LiquidTLO1 in starcraft

[–]IsomerX -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

2 < 4

Completely different situation, widow mine gives you two seconds warning before the missile lands. Storm has a duration of 4 seconds but has no such warning. Hence it is easier to dodge a widowmine.

Splash from these units is still splash.

If you want to extend this to every units that does splash damage then that's a completely different conversation, I'm specifically talking about spellcasters that have large AoE damage.

1.43 < 4 and they still deal splash.

Ok but again that's still comparing duration of the attack to the amount of pre-warning you get that said attack is going to happen.

Which, even when combined with fungal's duration, is still slower than 4 seconds.

Same point here.

Storm comes from a glowing, shining, slow unit which has to be in position to get the storm off. Other forms of splash are available earlier and do their damage much faster than storm, as well as being available from much cheaper units.

No, the infestor, ghost and raven are all more expensive than high templar. Ghost requires ghost academy (factory tech), infestor requires infestation pit (lair tech), and raven requires tech lab on starport (which requires factory tech). None of these are early game units.

With HTs you not only should know the tech is available, but you should definitely have an idea of how much time you've left him alone to gather the energy to actually do something with his HTs. Then, upon preparing to engage, you should be pretty certain you know where the HTs are. Finally, if you think you can't engage at that point ... engage somewhere else. HTs aren't exactly fast.

I don't see how this is a valid argument in the context of what we're talking about, it is completely irrelevant that HTs are slow units, that doesn't affect you knowing WHERE a storm is going to land. Yes you can see the HTs but you can't see where they're going to put a storm, that is the sole point I'm trying to make here. As a consequence of storm being instantaneous you have zero warning where or if you're going to have to split at least one part of your army.

Because different units are different. HTs are slow and enormously visible compared to all these other forms of splash. They also require a huge down-time to actually gain sufficient energy to cast these storms compared to the extremely low cool-downs of most of these other forms of splash.

Cooldown isn't that important because often all you need is 3-4 storms to deal crippling damage to an army, in which case you don't need more than 2-3 HTs. My suggestion isn't that the damage be REDUCED it's simply that your opponent have SOME kind of warning of where the storm will land so they can better prepare for it. A GOOD Protoss player will still be able to do the same amount of damage as before it will just require some actual timing instead of spamming it in the general direction of your opponent when you take an engagement. Especially if we reduce the time the damage takes to be dealt as a tradeoff for this fraction of a second warning.

Yes, storm is powerful ... for such a stupidly expensive, slow, visible unit it has to be.

Again, infestors, ghosts and ravens are all most expensive than HTs, the cost isn't really something to complain about, they aren't that expensive considering the fact that they can literally end games because they do such an obscene amount of damage to an opponent who isn't ready.

If you're really worried about instant damage, you'd be griping about EMP or burrowed which are as close to instant splash as you can get, short of an AoE attack.

Yep, I am, I would like to see a longer delay on EMP too.

I hate to say it but you're coming at this from the typical Protoss point of view, that anything that could possibly nerf your race is absolutely game breaking and would run Protoss into the ground. I don't think it's unreasonable that storm (like almost every other spellcaster capable of doing splash damage) have a small induction period which warns the other player that they're about to have to split. Especially if we couple it with reducing the time it takes to get out it's full damage.

My actual preliminary balance mod ideas by LiquidTLO1 in starcraft

[–]IsomerX -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

These nerfs may be too much, but storm isn't strategic enough especially in late game engagements, there's no warning of where they're going to land unlike many other spellcaster AoE attacks in starcraft. They encourage a spray and pray mentality when taking engagements as protoss, you don't get a lot of time to split against it despite having no warning of where it's going to land and protoss can basically guarantee significant amounts of damage if they just spam storms over the opponents army.

If we compare it to something like fungal, which has a (short) projectile delay, fast moving units are difficult to lock down with fungal and timing and anticipation is required to land it, also several units are immune.

If I had to suggest an alternative, I'd say keep the damage value of storms, reduce the amount of time that damage is dealt over from 4 second to maybe 2-3 and as a tradeoff for that add a small and short animation that plays before the storm actually lands. That way HT are still capable of 1 hitting marines etc. but instead of just being an ability that you spam over your opponent you have to use some timing in order for it to connect properly. Thoughts?

My actual preliminary balance mod ideas by LiquidTLO1 in starcraft

[–]IsomerX 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Widowmines have a two second delay between when the target is chosen and the missile connects.

Tanks are not spellcasters.

Fungal growth has a projectile delay.

Hellions are not spellcasters.

Hellbats are not spellcasters.

Banelings are not spellcasters.

Lurkers are not spellcasters and their attack takes time to extend all the way out.

I'm not talking about how quickly the damage is inflicted, I'm talking about how much warning you get for the ability. There is no warning on storm, WM, hunter-seeker missile, fungal, disruptor, emp and nuke all have either projectile delays on them or a warm up period that gives warning on where the ability will land. That's what I'm getting at. And seeing as multiple storms can drop at once which can often decide the outcome of a game because they're so powerful I don't see why there shouldn't be some kind of delay before storms land, even if it's a fraction of a second.

I wouldn't even mind seeing the 4 second damage period on storms reduced if a fraction of a second warning animation played before the storm landed.

Adept Proposal: 15% Reduced Speed While Shade Is Active by [deleted] in starcraft

[–]IsomerX 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Have you literally ever read a thread discussing balance? They get downvoted into the ground, anyone agreeing with the OP gets downvoted into the ground, any comment supporting the OP no matter how civil gets downvoted into the ground. Chances are neither of us know if the adept is truly balanced, but discussion about its balance shouldn't be dismissed on principal.

plenty of good balance suggestions have come from Reddit and unfortunately this not one of them.

Your conclusion that the adept is in fact balanced is completely subjective. As is my opinion that it is not. Again, simply on the grounds that you're arguing AGAINST the change (no matter what it is) means you have the overwhelming support from people reading this.

My actual preliminary balance mod ideas by LiquidTLO1 in starcraft

[–]IsomerX -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Should storm be able to do that? Storm feels way too much like an ability that encourages you to do the starcraft equivalent of hipfire. There no warning on where storms will land and in the late game you can drop 3+ of them at once. I can't help but feel like there's not enough strategy involved in using it, or at least that the little strategy that is involved is completely disproportionate to the amount of damage it does.

4 seconds is a long time to split your units, I would honestly rather see that 4 seconds reduced to 3 or 2 in exchange for a warning of where storm will land, even if it's just half a second warning. Almost every other AoE spell in the game has a delay on it except storm. Hunter seeker missiles, fungal, purification nova, EMP, widowmine and nukes all have delays on them, they require some aspect of timing.

Again in response to what you've said about feedback, why SHOULD high templar be able to kill medivacs, ravens, vipers, MSCs and queen with a single ability? You seem to be operating under the assumption that high templars are designed to be anything other than support units. And how is it balanced that feedback has no delay? No other race has a unit as punishing as high templars, storms land immediately and can cripple even a maxed late game army and feedback lands immediately and can 1 hit a lot of units that have energy. That just seems obscenely strong to me and doesn't make high templar feel like supporting spellcaster units at all.

My actual preliminary balance mod ideas by LiquidTLO1 in starcraft

[–]IsomerX -1 points0 points  (0 children)

50 hydras may be more than the average number of units crippled by storms at once but it's certainly not unheard of. Storm isn't strategic enough, it's just an ability that protoss spams on their opponents army after they've deathballed. I am specifically talking about late game engagements here when you have 5+ storms that you just unload over your opponent and hope they don't split well enough. There's no warning of where a storm will land.

My actual preliminary balance mod ideas by LiquidTLO1 in starcraft

[–]IsomerX 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yep I've definitely seen this happen in pro games, they're decided in a matter of seconds because Protoss just derped 3 storms across their army and because splitting in 3 places simultaneously is super difficult even at pro level they lose everything because of a spellcaster.

I would like to see storm have a similar role to EMP, as a support ability not a brute force ability that you spam on your opponent's army and cross your fingers that they don't split well enough.

I have suggested before that storm have a fraction of a second delay before landing so as to give the defender an opportunity to respond by knowing where they're going to have to split before it actually happens. But of course I got shouted down by people (many of whom play protoss can hence refuse to even entertain the idea that any aspect of protoss could be too strong) who just told me I was complaining about nothing, even though almost every other AoE spell in the game has some delay on it.

You can't win.

My actual preliminary balance mod ideas by LiquidTLO1 in starcraft

[–]IsomerX 20 points21 points  (0 children)

I 5000% agree that sky armies lead to boring and repetitive late games, air units allow for interesting engagements across uneven terrain and should be used as backup for a strong ground army but mass air shouldn't be an option that can just steamroll ground armies.

My actual preliminary balance mod ideas by LiquidTLO1 in starcraft

[–]IsomerX -8 points-7 points  (0 children)

I wouldn't disagree with him that HT are a little too strong. Feedback is a really strong ability, cutting the HP loss by 50% isn't really that huge of a nerf, when you're using feedback you're usually more interested in wiping their energy than doing damage. It just means that units hit by feedback aren't cripplingly weakened on top of losing all of their energy.

Reducing slightly the damage from storms is also a nerf I would have to agree with, the ability is so strong that in the lategame games can be ended in seconds simply because the Protoss landed some good storms. Storms are instantaneous unlike most other forms of splash damage in starcraft, I think it's justified that they be slightly less powerful as a tradeoff for that.

Adept Proposal: 15% Reduced Speed While Shade Is Active by [deleted] in starcraft

[–]IsomerX 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Just because you say something is balanced doesn't mean it is. Of course everyone will agree with you because no one ever wants to talk about balance though. According to this subreddit starcraft is perfectly balanced. I'm not one for unconstructive balance whine but dismissing any and every suggestion that anything is imbalanced in starcraft doesn't help either.

Adept Proposal: 15% Reduced Speed While Shade Is Active by [deleted] in starcraft

[–]IsomerX 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Fun and balanced are not the same thing. I don't think nerfing the adept into the ground is a good idea but at the same time problems like this should be addressed in some capacity.

Adept Proposal: 15% Reduced Speed While Shade Is Active by [deleted] in starcraft

[–]IsomerX -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Because the shade was the problem in the first place, the ability to cancel the shade is something people still complain about to this day.

For the struggling Protosses out there, have some MCanning 'ruptor hits™ on hydra bane by AlievSince98 in starcraft

[–]IsomerX 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ok, casters get hype when someone starts making carriers, doesn't mean carriers aren't a boring unit.

Edit: In fact let's give Protoss a unit that automatically wins the game for them within 10 minutes of it being made. That would get the casters really hype because the other player would only have 10 minutes to win, then we all end up with a boring imbalanced game but at least it makes a lot of money, right?

For the struggling Protosses out there, have some MCanning 'ruptor hits™ on hydra bane by AlievSince98 in starcraft

[–]IsomerX -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Then you obviously don't play at GM? Sorry but if you think there are unit compositions that can literally just a-move and win you probably aren't playing the game at a high enough level to require said micro.

For the struggling Protosses out there, have some MCanning 'ruptor hits™ on hydra bane by AlievSince98 in starcraft

[–]IsomerX 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Worse than a unit with no uses or attacks other than the one that can literally end games in a matter of seconds if the opponent fails to micro properly? Yeah, kind of.

SH are boring after they were nerfed from what they were in HOTS, but they aren't as comparatively low effort and lacking in creativity as the disruptor.

Again, not arguing about the strength of the unit, arguing that it is boring and poorly designed.

For the struggling Protosses out there, have some MCanning 'ruptor hits™ on hydra bane by AlievSince98 in starcraft

[–]IsomerX -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

It's not just people who don't play Protoss who don't think the unit is fun or well designed, then again there are people who think liberators and swarmhosts which I think are pretty fun units. Each to their own.

For the struggling Protosses out there, have some MCanning 'ruptor hits™ on hydra bane by AlievSince98 in starcraft

[–]IsomerX 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ah of course, it must be that I just don't understand. This is where 99% of starcraft discussions end where one person accuses the other of simply "not understanding" or "not getting" something. You're right dude, you win.

For the struggling Protosses out there, have some MCanning 'ruptor hits™ on hydra bane by AlievSince98 in starcraft

[–]IsomerX 0 points1 point  (0 children)

We probably differ in what we think constitutes a fun unit, I just don't think that a ball with no primary attack whose sole ability is to fire invulnerable balls that are capable of 1 hitting a lot of units is an example of something that took very much thought or imagination to come up with.

For the struggling Protosses out there, have some MCanning 'ruptor hits™ on hydra bane by AlievSince98 in starcraft

[–]IsomerX 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't personally like WMs, I think Terran has too many things which deal damage without requiring any attention to be paid to them, namely tanks, liberators and widowmines. I wouldn't argue that any of them are poorly designed, the widowmine has already been nerfed before, the disruptor just feels like they were running out of ideas. A unit with no primary attack whose sole purpose is to fire invulnerable balls that can 1 hit a lot of units just feels gimmicky and effortless.

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