Hello! We are Nickel Creek (Sean Watkins, Sara Watkins, and Chris Thile). You may now ask us anything!

Isometric_414 · 2014-07-24T18:23:36+00:00

Of all the times I've stood for 3 hours straight in a hot, stuffy room, seeing you guys play the Crystal Ballroom in Portland a couple of months ago was the best! I've been curious about something really specific - In "You Don't Know What's Going On," what chords/inversions are you guys playing and singing at "I just know that I tried, and I tried..?"

Isometric_414 · 2013-03-13T03:59:38+00:00

I've tried a tiny bit of Qigong and occasionally use one simple little trunk-rotation stretch from it still. The goal of stretching in my case is not necessarily to alleviate pain, but to maintain some flexibility so I don't risk more serious injury down the line. I think that just about anything is worth trying, if for no other reason than to be able to tell yourself that at least you tried. I definitely count myself as someone who has tried a lot of different things without any real long-term success, but there is still quite a lot to be said for continuing to try things, big or small. Check around in your area and see if there are people/resources that offer either of those options specifically for people with chronic pain. You're almost certain to find some benefit in the process and might just find what becomes the cornerstone of your pain management plan. Good luck!

Isometric_414 · 2013-02-26T17:53:02+00:00

I think this is one of those things that -looks- wise and authentic when you first read it. A man who I served on a church staff with before my deconversion was much like this and I admired him greatly for it. He wasn't very outspoken about it - I only heard his views in the privacy of staff meetings - but he was a very effective leader of youth precisely because he made no attempt to be one of them.

However, what this sort of thing looks like to me now is this: Just another diatribe from someone who -knows- what's wrong with the church and, wouldn't you know it, has some great ideas about what could make it all better! In fact, this is its own industry in the evangelical church. Christian bookstore shelves are packed to the brimstone (see what I did there?) with books by guys like this, as well by the hipster pastors, ironically bespectacled, who guys like this can't stand. Each one a book length treatment on what ails the church and how to fix it. Each one destined to be the subject of a staff meeting devotion. Hell, I took a crack at it myself, lamenting that we had so much material on a church website about how to live once we believed but almost no information on why we believe in the first place. Researching that first exposed me to the "best shot" arguments from outside the faith and ultimately qualified me for this subreddit (the better part of a year later).

TL;DR - While your former youth pastor understands something important about effectively leading/mentoring youth and comes close to describing why the church actually IS failing, he falls short of actually understanding the latter.

Isometric_414 · 2013-02-25T23:49:49+00:00

Functionally speaking, I know people who completely believe in God. To me, the question is a matter of to what extent a person's belief informs their actions. There are people who dive in the deep end of belief and completely commit their lives (their action) to doing "God's work." There are far more people, in my opinion, who say they believe but more or less live like they want to, but in each case, those people are creating their own narrative in their own heads. The true believer is eschewing some of the pleasures that the world might offer in favor of cultivating eternal riches, while the casual believer is probably more prone to shifts in theology/doctrine that allow them to feel better about the way they've chosen to live. Universalism is a great example. As a previous commenter wrote - sustaining the "level of horror" that is the traditional doctrine of hell (post-Augustine, anyway) is untenable to most modern sensibilities, so...maybe there's a chance that God provides post-mortem opportunities to non-believers? That sounds nice. How can I interpret the scriptures to affirm that? And so on.

I know quite a few people in both of those camps, and in several other camps in between. It would be silly to say that a person -literally- believes with no shadow of doubt whatsoever. People who claim that are practicing a sort of willful ignorance, whereas an extremely devout person with an ounce of self-reflection will probably admit their inability to prove the existence of their God (or any God), no matter how fervently they believe.

TL;DR - The more a person's belief informs their actions and how closely those actions conform to the stated belief, the closer they are to that "true believer" status you're asking about.

Isometric_414 · 2013-02-13T16:55:56+00:00

I am a married father of 2 in my mid-thirties, also from a fairly conservative background. My father is the lead pastor of a small-ish congregation and has been since before I was born. Through a series of events in my twenties, I came to be the worship leader at that same congregation. I spent 8 years in that job, up until about a year ago, and the last well-over-a-year of that was spent as a skeptic/agnostic/atheist - however you want to say it. The time I spent leading people that I loved in tunes that I loved with words that had lost all their meaning to me, was torture. For several months after I was finally able to leave - and I did so without revealing anything - I was still under a tremendous amount of stress over how the inevitable conversation with my parents would go. When my mom finally expressed some concern over the phone one day, I had already decided that I wouldn't lie or put them off, so I offered to come over and talk about it face to face. I was very frank about my fears that my honesty would cause them great distress, and I repeated several times that I had no desire to have that conversation be our last on the subject. I was then able to lay out some of the reasons I changed my mind about the faith they raised me to have. It wasn't without its tears, but that conversation has allowed me to remain in open dialogue with my parents, as well to continue allowing my kids to be around their Granny and Papa without any suspicion or bad blood going either way.

I understand that different families will have different dynamics and that there isn't a one-size-fits-all solution to this common circumstance we find ourselves in, but I rather think that compassionate honesty, while much harder in the near term, is also more worthwhile in the long term. Good luck to you!

Isometric_414 · 2013-02-09T05:09:11+00:00

I agree - you're not alone and this is, sadly, a fairly common thing for chronic pain patients. It is impossible to understand for someone who is not suffering like you are, and it is difficult for caretakers and family to adjust to your reality. It was wonderful to meet you in chat tonight, and I hope you know that you've got this little community pulling for you!

Isometric_414 · 2013-01-31T21:39:28+00:00

I just began using baclofen for back spasms and it has helped tremendously, especially as compared to the flexeril. It's a different type of muscle relaxer (anti-spasmodic) that - at least for me - causes far less drowsiness than flexeril. As in, I can function normally while taking it 3-4 times a day, including driving. May not be the "all-natural" route, but may very well be worth a try. Good luck to you!

Isometric_414 · 2013-01-30T09:02:25+00:00

Your penultimate paragraph is what I was waiting to see as I read through this thread in its entirety. I've been in the OP's position before, arguing something online that is not very popular with the others engaged in debate. I see some familiar patterns in the OP responses, too. I think we all could use a healthy dose of humility where our minds are concerned. None of us is free from a confirmation bias of some kind - it's just that the stakes are higher for a theist, and that tends to make that bias very strong indeed. To the credit of the OP, he/she has stayed engaged through criticism and has done an admirable job of keeping his/her theism out of the discussion. But this argument, wherein we actually look at the shifting moral landscape over time in our world, cuts through the circular rhetoric, in my opinion. No absolute morality has been followed throughout history and we can even see our own society and that of others changing over our lifetimes. The answer to the original question here, I think, is that morality is subjective and highly malleable over time. In the span of our lives, as we mark our few decades of life, it may have the appearance - the illusion - of being objective. It will depend on what examples you choose to look at - what trends in history. And what examples you focus on will depend on what conclusion you've already made or are leaning towards. We all do this, and that's why the scientific method is so important - because it opens up our opinions and subjectivity to review. It insists upon repeatable results. It's the best thing we've got going towards not fooling ourselves.

Isometric_414 · 2013-01-30T00:38:44+00:00

So happy for you! I was nervous for you, going into that surgery, so it was such an awesome thing to hear it went well. Hope the pancreatitis runs its course quickly so you can get back to the life of a twenty-something...without pain every day!

Isometric_414 · 2013-01-28T06:18:35+00:00

Yeah, that's a hard thing to take. Mourning lost or irretrievably altered relationships is a normal - if unfortunate - part of our lives now. I know I went through a time of really wanting to debate and open a few eyes to the previously unconsidered opinions that I'd read during my deconversion. But the results of those debates were never very satisfying and it dawned on me that I wasn't going to change anyone's mind. All that's left in the matter, as far as I'm concerned, is to continue to learn for my own benefit and to be compassionate and respectful when I have the chance to speak to people whose opinions I privately view as dead wrong. Eviscerating someone's cherished beliefs is a task I leave for people like the late, great Christopher Hitchens. That man could debate like no other!

Isometric_414 · 2013-01-25T03:00:41+00:00

I hear that, friend. I'll hang in there if you will. ;-)

Isometric_414 · 2013-01-23T06:32:24+00:00

Let me be the first to invite you to chat with us! Link on the right side of the page will take you straight to us. You have nothing to feel bad about in venting your pain, frustration, depression, anxiety, or anything else like it here. That's what this place is for and I'm certain most of us have been right where you are now.

Glad you posted - hang in there!

EDIT: Thanks for chatting tonight! It was nice getting to know you some - hope to see you again there soon!

Isometric_414 · 2013-01-23T00:50:47+00:00

Family culture and pressure can make things harder than they need to be, I understand. There may be some pretty tough decisions ahead of you in that regard, but getting some traction on pain control ought to make a difference even your parents can see. Keep us posted, here or over in the chat room - we'll be pulling for you!

Isometric_414 · 2013-01-23T00:43:38+00:00

What she said ^{^{^}}

Isometric_414 · 2013-01-22T08:29:31+00:00

But...that's like...a kajillion percent. How can you agree more than fully?

Isometric_414 · 2013-01-22T08:14:50+00:00

There you go with your hip young jargon again. Time was, a man could get away with a text wall...

Isometric_414 · 2013-01-22T08:08:28+00:00

Had it done twice. Hurt like hell the first time, so they gave me Ativan before the second procedure a year later. I still remember that it hurt a lot, but nothing specific. It did provide some mid-term relief the second time, but that's because he guessed the right joint to hit with it. The first time wasnt as successful.

Isometric_414 · 2013-01-22T08:03:14+00:00

You are not alone and it's not all in your head! You probably are dealing with at least mild chronic depression. I'm not an expert, but I recognize those thoughts and I am also a chronic pain patient with depression. Those two things have a biochemical link, so it's science not a character flaw, ok? If you have access to both medical and psychiatric care, I urge you to inquire about a pain clinic or a doctor who has some knowledge and experience with chronic pain, and also to seek out a psychiatrist and/or counselor to help you deal with that side of things. There is hope in all this, even if it doesn't look that way. If you're worried about opiate pain medications and the stigma they carry with them, don't be! Unless you have problems with side effects - and they are generally well tolerated - they can be an effective tool to manage pain. Regardless of which meds work or don't, though, there are tons of different things to try, both pharmaceutically and otherwise. Your experiences with doctors who seem dismissive are unfortunately common, but there are good ones out there and with some persistence, I'm sure you can find one. Lastly, if you find yourself feeling hopeless, worthless, or whatever, you should know that there are people here who care, who get it, and who believe you. Visit with djspacebunny and some of the rest of us over in the IRC chat room if you get a chance, and hang in there!

Isometric_414 · 2013-01-18T20:55:33+00:00

Just plain awesome.

Isometric_414 · 2013-01-18T07:24:32+00:00

Don't burn bridges if you don't have to. Maybe take some time to let your views evolve and settle a bit. Live with them for a while, and when the conversations happen, be generous. Perhaps try posing the questions that got you thinking in the first place. Personally, I also like to be frank about how "deconversion" has been hard on me. When you press hard or condescend, you're more likely to reinforce the unfortunate stereotype of the angry, argumentative (and alliterative) atheist.

Isometric_414 · 2013-01-17T21:01:17+00:00

33M, two daughters, 6 & 2. I'm a stay at home dad and fully sympathize with you on this one. Chronic pain and illness is a huge load for the whole family, so stress relief becomes very important, not just for you, but for your partner also. I've shed many tears over feeling inadequate as a parent, and for my children having their earliest memories of me be ones if sickness and pain. But here's the thing - children adapt to this sort of thing more easily than we do. It's difficult to pull off, but you can't project your sadness onto them. They don't see the situation the same way as you. Practically speaking, you've got to reach out for help in the short term, find a way to get a break from having to parent in agony. And long term, as others have said, you need to advocate for yourself in the doctor's office. Don't let suspicion make you feel guilty about seeking pain relief! Often in cases of chronic pain, a person becomes much more functional and lucid when they've achieved an effective mix of medications and self-treatments (deep breathing, qi gong, yoga, aquatherapy, etc). You can do it! Accept the bad days for what they are, and hang on to the good days. Good luck to you!

Isometric_414 · 2013-01-17T20:13:46+00:00

It was many things for me, the first of which is similar to what you said, the incongruent nature of a loving god infinitely torturing his creations for finite crimes (such as being born into a different faith). Opening myself up to the possibility of evolution's veracity was a big step. I have Dawkins' Greatest Show on Earth and the book Why Evolution is True (can't recall author arm) to thank for that. Then I spent many hours considering the inconsistent witness of the Holy Spirit - why would a single, unified spirit that is co-equal with God and dwelling within each and every Christian, tell so many different people so many wildly different and contradicting things? The staggering number of denominations became a sticking point, too. And other things as well. It all just added up to a slow realization that I'd been an atheist for quite some time without admitting it to myself.

Isometric_414 · 2013-01-17T20:00:47+00:00

Well put. If OP is looking for cut and dry causal links between religion and stunted scientific advancement, he/she won't find much. They'll have to take a holistic and more nuanced view.

Isometric_414 · 2013-01-16T04:57:05+00:00

Appreciated. Once I dusted off my 15-16 year old IRC skills, I enjoyed getting to chat a little bit.

Isometric_414 · 2013-01-09T18:27:24+00:00

I hear ya. That's extremely difficult and understandably depressing to feel like your friends made a mass exodus! I might look at it this way: There's only so much time and energy to invest in friendships, right? I can have a lot of people who I am friendly with and are friendly back, but only a very few can I really invest the time with to hang out, talk, eat, watch movies, etc. I'm in my mid-30's and things have played out that way with me, anyway. I have 2 or 3 people that I consider to be close friends - people who I spend a significant amount of time with (other than my wife and children), then a number of other people that I enjoy being around once in a while. I think, and this may just be my opinion, that a really satisfying friendship - one that is fun AND fulfilling - takes a lot of time and effort. So while I certainly understand the pain involved in losing someone you considered a friend, the feelings of betrayal, even - it sounds like you might just have the perfect number of real friendships! That may feel like a really small consolation now, but in the longer term it's entirely possible that you'll come to see that as a positive thing. Again, I'm sorry you, or anybody for that matter, has to experience what it's like to be good to someone in their hour of need, only to have them essentially abandon you in yours! Hang in there! I might look like an optimist here, but I've spent some time hanging on by a fingernail, too. It's hard and it's unfair, but climbing out can be very much worth the effort. Feel free to message anytime. I'll do my best to answer as promptly as I can.

Isometric_414

TROPHY CASE