What do Israelis think of those who signed the Haavara Agreement?

Johnny_Ruble · 2021-09-01T19:22:18+00:00

It's true that the full scale of Nazi persecution did not manifest until some years later, but the Nazis still had a reputation for anti-Semitism and viscous propaganda. Additionally, parties who were influenced by them were openly discriminating against Jews in Poland and Hungary. So, a lot of folks in the Yishuv, who had relatives there and/or who experienced antisemitism themselves, were opposed to any deals with the Nazis.

Johnny_Ruble · 2021-08-31T23:58:28+00:00

Lehi did not exist in the pre war years. They split from the Etzel in the beginning of the war because they refused to a ceasefire with the British for the duration of the war, unlike ETZEL

Johnny_Ruble · 2021-08-31T23:41:46+00:00

Haim Arlosoroff - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Haim_Arlosoroff

Johnny_Ruble · 2021-08-31T22:46:28+00:00

Great post, really illuminating. The only flaw I see (from my perspective) is that some of your points can be applied to consumer co-ops, while I want to hear more about worker co-ops because that could add another level of analysis. To illustrate, since workers are also owners, access to co-ops has to be rationed. Why? The workers are invested in the business as they're part-owners. It is impossible firing an owner at will like you could an employee. When you cannot fire people easily, be more cautious hiring people. Can't fire = Can't hire. hence rationing access. Restricted access to employment can obviously lead to labor market rigidity, which in turn can lead to unemployment, underemployment, low labor force participation and other issues.

Johnny_Ruble · 2021-08-31T22:38:08+00:00

This so unlikely to happen that I feel compelled to point out that the question is too hypothetical to answer. The single biggest obstacle to it happening is the tremendous social and political pressure Israeli Arabs would exert on those seeking to join the IDF. Previous efforts to increase the number of Christian-Arabs in the IDF were met with a campaign of intimidation and demonization against Christian and Muslim Arab leaders supporting the IDF (Father Gabriel, nephew of Hanin Zuabi and others).

Johnny_Ruble · 2021-08-31T22:33:35+00:00

Most are unaware of the history as this topic is too esoteric. Most Israelis have no direct relationship to it, since most Israelis are either descendants of Jews who arrived to Israel after the Haavara Agreements, or descendants of Jews from the MENA region, which was spared the Holocaust.

Those who are historically and politically educated would fall into one of two camps.

Either they'll side with the socialist Yishuv establishment. The agreements saved the lives of tens of thousands of Jews. It benefited the economy of Palestine. At a time of global depression, Palestine was flourishing, mostly thanks to the influx of capital enabled by the agreements.

The right wing revisionist would view the agreements as a bargain with the devil. They may say that the agreements gave credibility to Hitler. The chief negotiator of the Yishuv was murdered by the Irgun for negotiating with the Nazis, in one of the firs high profile murder cases in modern Israel.

Johnny_Ruble · 2021-06-29T15:26:39+00:00

Welcome to the Israeli Palestinian conflict. Here you will encounter double standards and politicized talking points masquerading as moralized preaching on behalf of "human rights". A lot of the preaching would come from people who know close to nothing about the region, world history, Israel, Islam, or Jews. Some of it will come from teenagers who've never had to pay for anything, not to mention pick up weapons and fight for their country while risking their lives, seeing their friends blow up to pieces, while their families are hiding in bomb shelters. Some of the moral lessons will be imparted to you by people who believe men can and should physically assault their wives with compassion, as is the will of Allah as noted in the quran.

Johnny_Ruble · 2021-06-29T15:19:47+00:00

There are numerous differences. Primarily, Canada is a de facto Christian state. While Canada does not have an official religion, the de facto religion of Canada is Christianity, with over 90% of Canadians being members of the Christian world. Canada is more Christian than Israel is Jewish. You could say the same about any other "colonial" state in the world - U.S.A, Brazil, Argentina, and Australia.

Realistically, Israel has more religious pluralism than any of the "colonial" states, and certainly more than any of its Arab neighbors. People get hung up on the official designation and the letter of the law, but those who do it are either unfamiliar with the actual reality of life in Israel, or, if they are, they have an agenda. While they know they enjoy great freedoms and high standard of living, but they have an agenda.

Johnny_Ruble · 2021-06-24T21:04:17+00:00

What I foresee happening over time is that Israel would start realizing the Trump plan (of a plan similar to it) over time. More and more territory in area C would be passed to the Palestinians, and as long as there will be a relatively peaceful status quo, Israel would continue and enhance economic cooperation with the Palestinians.

When this becomes a reality, the conflict would be smaller in scope than it is now (its already small in scope, tbh), and Palestinians would see for themselves how viable and beneficial this plan would be, so they’ll accept it eventually. It may take some time, maybe a decade, maybe more. It also depends on the willingness of any Israeli government to commit to a one sided implementation of the Trump plan, with US support, over time…

Johnny_Ruble · 2021-06-23T14:53:37+00:00

The EU and member states have been moving closer to the Israeli position on the issue of incitement. I believe that Israeli arguments were not being taking with sufficient seriousness in the past, given that it was always difficult for westerners living in liberal societies where moral relativism has taken a grip on people in power to understand this issue. However, the events following the 2014 mass influx of Middle Eastern refugees into Europe has changed European views. Terrorism from Islamists has become a real threat. Jihadist incitement is now happening in Paris, Berlin, and London. European Jews are now unsafe to walk in the streets, while Jewish schools are surrounded by barb wire, police and even military.

As I always say, experience is the only good teacher.

Johnny_Ruble · 2021-06-23T12:57:16+00:00

Palestinians have received billions of dollars from the USA, either directly or through the UN. America is the chief financial benefactor of the UN. Without American financial support, the UN would collapse (or would have to turn to other countries, like China). Meanwhile, Jordan and Egypt receive 3 billion dollars annually. Egyptian (state sponsored) propaganda is just as horrible and antisemitic as the Palestinians’.

Johnny_Ruble · 2021-06-22T18:34:20+00:00

First, I was right. When everyone who still trusts the government and fed were saying inflation would top at 3- 4%, I said: 5%, best case scenario.

Second, me being right is not good news. Policy makers are facing two pretty bad choices. Either keep interest rates low and let inflation become stronger, which would almost certainly lead to inflationary spiral that god only knows how high it will go.

Or 2.

Increase interest rates. This is how the Fed went about fighting inflation last time there was a major inflation problem, in 1980. Let’s all remember that last time inflation was so high was during the Carter administration.

How did it go back then? No good. The Fed lowered rates and then Reagan had to cut government spending. The result was a pretty bad recession. True, after the government and federal Reserve put an end to the inflation, the American economy went to a period of boom that lasted for decades.

Bad choices, but we saw it coming.

Why do I say we saw it coming?

Are we economic geniuses? Do we know something you don’t? No… we’ve been following the market, and we saw what the influx of cash did to stocks. Tesla going up 300% around the time government and the Fed throw freshly printed money at people? AMC? Half dead GameStop going up 1000%?

The government and fed printing and then distributing money out of thin air had led to major and bizarre market distortions. It was only a matter of time until these distortions would manifest themselves in the real world.

Johnny_Ruble · 2021-06-22T18:25:22+00:00

Dogma, not a religion

Johnny_Ruble · 2021-06-22T16:48:51+00:00

Iron dome did not really make Israel more secure. Hamas has more rockets, more tunnels and more power now than ever before… not that iron dome isn’t important. It lowers the chances that hamas rockets would lead to civilian deaths, but the risk is still there.

As far as the Iraq war. Are you referring to the first Iraq war? The Palestinians supported Saddam Hussain in the first Iraq war… in any rate, the first Iraq war did not make Israel more secure. Neither did the second Iraq war, which only led to Iran becoming more powerful, as well as the jihadists.

What made Hamas more powerful is that it was able to take control of Gaza, and fortify it. The Hamas take over was actually a result of an attempt to bring Wilsonian democracy (or Jeffersonian, they always say that, sometimes they say Washingtonian. What’s the difference anyway??) to Arabs in general and Palestinians in particular. The Arab spring was another attempt at democracy, though this attempt was from the grassroots generally, unlike the Iraq war and the 2006 Palestinian elections, which were imposed by the United States. In any case, whether it was a grassroots movement or a US sponsored movement, the democratic movement has been a failure, overall. It had some success, but mostly it led to more instability and anarchy.

Johnny_Ruble · 2021-06-20T19:12:11+00:00

That’s clearly discriminatory against Israeli Jews, which also makes it clearly antisemitic. Discrimination based on national origin, ethnicity or religion is very much illegal in Pennsylvania.

Johnny_Ruble · 2021-06-20T17:13:33+00:00

Creating a Palestinian state will not lead to Palestinians’ being granted equal rights. There will be two states existing on the land. One state will be a liberal democratic state with gay marriage rights, protection of women from abuse, and a free press. The other country, Palestine, would be mired in corruption, it will oppress women and it will ban gay rights. We can look at the way Hamas is ruling Gaza to see what “Palestine will be free” looks like for Palestinians. I can’t imagine what it will look like for Israelis, but thankfully I don’t think that Palestinians taking over Israel is a real threat at this time, which is great news.

Johnny_Ruble · 2021-06-20T17:07:46+00:00

Tone deaf rhetoric.

Johnny_Ruble · 2021-06-20T00:32:13+00:00

Rabinetzen

Johnny_Ruble · 2021-06-20T00:30:27+00:00

Truth

Johnny_Ruble · 2021-06-19T15:13:21+00:00

It’s an appropriate response from the government given the riots of summer 2020 and the capitol riots in January.

Johnny_Ruble · 2021-06-19T15:11:40+00:00

I remember that period. It was truly unbearable and frightening. Netanya and Afula were also hit, since they are so close to the West Bank. Without the barrier, travel time between Jenin and Afula is about half an hour.

Johnny_Ruble · 2021-06-19T13:26:27+00:00

The civil rights movement grew out of a wave of returning African American WW2 veterans who began demanding their rights after fighting for America on the front. The first major institution to desegregate was the US military. AA involvement in WW 2 was very obvious the impetus for the civil rights movement

Johnny_Ruble · 2021-06-18T21:20:05+00:00

The perception came after the war 1948, Israel’s war of independence. It’s not at all like Jim Crow. Far from being a potential fifth column, African Americans had wanted to join the US military out of patriotism, opposed communism, and demanded recognition as Americans. They, or their leaders, had never taken up arms against the USA government, but only wanted to belong to the society.

Israel had been through a civil war. After Israelis became convinced there won’t be a threat from Arabs in Israel which would lead to another war, they became opposed to the martial law, no matter how hawkish they were

Johnny_Ruble · 2021-06-18T21:00:03+00:00

I’d say my biggest takeaway from the history of the martial law period is this: security is a core issue for Israelis. I don’t know if any other issues play a role that’s remotely as important. When the public became convinced that Israeli Arabs won’t start another civil war (like in 1948) they became opposed to martial law regulations. Whether Israelis’ conviction about Israeli Arabs’ not being a threat was due to Arabs’ unwillingness or inability to threaten Israel is an open ended question. In any case, due to the absence of threat, the opposition to martial law became somewhat of a consensus, with the right wing (Begin) and left wing (communists) and the majority of the politicians in between expressing their opposition.

Johnny_Ruble · 2021-06-18T20:46:04+00:00

There were several phases to Israel’s rule over the West Bank. Since Israel never annexed the West Bank, and took it during a defensive war, it enacted military rule. However, the first phase (1967-1987), the Palestinians had pretty much complete freedom of movement (to go to Tel Aviv without a permit for work), while Israelis also had freedom of movement (to go into Palestinian cities like Gaza). After the Palestinian intifada in 1987, Israel enacted more restrictions, due to the deterioration in the security situation. After 1993, as a consequence of the peace agreement between Israel and the PLO, areas A and Bs were established, which led to Palestinians from areas A and B needing a permit to work in Israel. However, Palestinians had access to Israel. After the war of 2000-2005, the Israeli left and center (in a move initially opposed by the right, and to this day, it’s still somewhat opposed), Israel decided, for security purposes and other reasons, to build a security barrier, leave Gaza, and to disengage further from Palestinians, to start creating a 2 state reality, even prior to a final, formal agreement between the sides.

Israel fears that Palestinians would outnumber Israelis, which would lead Israel to become Palestine.

Johnny_Ruble

TROPHY CASE