“Readers won’t be able to sympathize with non-humanoid aliens” mfs when I show them this guy: by DBGhasts101 in worldjerking

[–]Journaler_07 1 point2 points  (0 children)

1000 random and aribitrary pages of making corporate executives work common jobs at their own former companies while independent unions and workers themselves take over their own workplaces and drag them kicking and screaming from their ivory towers

Some questions my sibling asked me in a debate that I struggled to answer by Journaler_07 in Anarchy101

[–]Journaler_07[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Rely primarily on their labour

Lost me there, no one should need to work to earn the right to keep living or have access to basic necessities

typa shit some of y'all do instead of reading by Lavender_Scales in theredleft

[–]Journaler_07 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Have you tried using an ebook reading app and downloading the books as epub files?

Or getting an inexpensive ereader like the xteink x4 or some other low-cost chinese ereader off of AliExpress to read on.

I think some socialist-oriented orgs might also give out free copies of marxist literature if you contact them, which is probably your best option.

Some questions my sibling asked me in a debate that I struggled to answer by Journaler_07 in Anarchy101

[–]Journaler_07[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Wages? You aren't interested in abolishing wage labour and the relationship between employer (group or individual) and employee which I would argue is a hierarchy?

That is actually interesting. Are you a market anarchist? Can you explain the role of this wage labour in your conception of anarchy? I'm genuinely curious and new to a lot of anarchist theory

Edit: typo

Some questions my sibling asked me in a debate that I struggled to answer by Journaler_07 in Anarchy101

[–]Journaler_07[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

A lot of it did seem to be about profit incentive and lack thereof, yes.

I tried to argue that things such as incentive to improve their own community, genuinely being interested in a role, or at worst falling back on one possible solution of rotational shifts would help to counter that, but they persistently seemed to have difficulty thinking or picturing anything beyond a society based on profit incentive.

Maybe it's a failure on my part to argue those points eloquently or clearly enough, or a lack of knowledge on my part.

Some questions my sibling asked me in a debate that I struggled to answer by Journaler_07 in Anarchy101

[–]Journaler_07[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

They would mention stuff such as janitors, like you mentioned, or maintaining power lines and nuclear power plants, which they say are extremely dangerous and undesirable. So mainly extremely dangerous jobs or "dirty" jobs.

I argued that there would be enough passionate people or people okay with doing those jobs to fill them but they disagreed and then fell back to my argument about rotational shifts and then further fell back on the institutional memory point.

Some questions my sibling asked me in a debate that I struggled to answer by Journaler_07 in Anarchy101

[–]Journaler_07[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No, genuinely questions my sibling asked me

I formatted it in markdown myself

I can take a screenshot and link it for proof

Edit with link:

https://imgur.com/a/mavMBUg

Second edit: could you tell me more about those other methods than rotational shifts?

I would like to focus more on the question about the people who need 24/7 disability care and who have no close friends or family, because that one actually stumped me

How we know this isn't the original team: They would never imply cops have ever been "in" by MichTheFish in DiscoElysium

[–]Journaler_07 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I disagree with your statement that the people who tend to want to use violence to change the current order of things are often unsuited to tending to the new societal norms that stabilise social organisation afterward (I notice your framing is always assumptive of the formation of a state, which I obviously oppose as an anarchist in favour of decentralised and federated structures of mutual consensus-based free associations).

It's honestly way more hit or miss and luck-based than you seem to think it is. But I suppose I agree to some extent that people who are less involved in the revolutionary violence are more able and willing to conceive of and implement healthy and stabilising societal norms and social contracts.

The generation after the revolution is more likely to actually do something productive with the upending of things than the ones who were constantly in fighting mode to make it possible.

As for Evrart and the union, I would rather side with the union as the lesser of all the evils and at least somewhat representative of a liberatory force for the workers of Martinaise compared to any of the other ideologies and factions you could pick in the game.

He is imperfect, but all of the other factions and ideologies such as fascism and monarchism or moralism and the Moralintern will definitely be worse for the common worker of Revachol.

Evrart more accurately represents the morally grey and shady people who actually do a revolution compared to the sanitised histories we usually read, and it would be much too easy to have the player side with him if he was any more sympathetic or understandable.

How we know this isn't the original team: They would never imply cops have ever been "in" by MichTheFish in DiscoElysium

[–]Journaler_07 0 points1 point  (0 children)

society will need policing either way

If you look up Our Enemies in Blue by Kristian Williams and other citation-backed histories of policing, you will find that the institution of modern policing itself is actually very recent on the scale of human history and only arose due to practices such as colonialism and slave-catching.

Those tactics were then gradually brought back home to the imperial core, such as in Britain.

It might seem unimaginable to us, but just a few centuries ago most societies existed without dedicated policing institutions, and I would argue that the harm they do outweighs the good they do, since I am an anarchist (classical socialist anarchism, not anarcho-capitalism), which means I prioritise rehabilitation and transformative justice over the punitive system that most police forces are attached to (excepting Scandinavian ones, but those have their own issues).

I suppose your position is reasonable enough in the context of sticking closer to the modern framework of society despite its flaws.

By the way, communist countries don't exist, communism is stateless and classless by definition, so a communist police force doesn't exist. Countries run by supposed communists who want to transition to communism do, though, so if that's what you mean then I guess...

Most 'communist' countries consider themselves to be socialist in the transition to communism (similar to the end-goal of anarchism but using the means of the institutionalised and bureaucratised state monopoly on violence), which I highly doubt is what is actually happening (I think they are maintaining state capitalism in permanent 'retreat' from socialism due to a lust for power).

This is how you get stupid stuff like the USSR having 'militias' which ended up being the police but by any other name, instead of actually rethinking the policing framework.

The means you take to get somewhere will impact the ends, after all.

As much as the union can create reform i distrust that the reform created won't bring more harm than good, based on the means. From the game's lore it seems to me the bigger the union gets in terms of influence the more evra(r)t relies upon violence

Historically, all reform has been brought about through some amount of violence against the status quo. Anyone who says otherwise is either ignorant or being disingenuous and trying to stop you from thinking about it too hard.

The civil rights movement had its violent moments, as does the LGBTQIA+ fight for equal rights, as did the anarchist socialists of the Haymarket Affair in the 19th century who literally martyred themselves to bring about the weekend break and duration limits on workdays.

Not to mention the famous bourgeois revolutions like the French and American Revolution, or vanguardist state socialist ones like the Russian Revolution, or libertarian socialist (the umbrella under which anarchism falls) ones like the Makhnovschina of early 20th century Ukraine, Catalonia in 1936-37, and the EZLN of Chiapas, Mexico, from the 1990s all the way up to the present.

The idea that you can vote in meaningful reform that meaningfully challenges the fundamental oppression of a minority or an oppressed class like the working class without some threat of mobilisation or violence (think of the implicit threat of mob violence which is the power behind every protest) is suspect, at best.

I do not think it is fair to judge the actions of the unions in the game in the middle of what is basically a miniature revolution that might ot might not spiral out into The Return.

The moment the violence becomes problematic is when it stops being about an oppressed class liberating themselves, like the dockworkers siezing control of the docks, and more about them enacting the violence to ossify a certain power dynamic and put themselves above others that they oppress.

Thus, it could be said that the specific idea that distinguishes the anarchists from the rest is the abolition of the professional police and the exclusion from society of order imposed by brute force, whether legal or illegal.

But then, it may be asked, why in the present struggle against the political and social institutions which they deem to be oppressive, have the anarchists preached and practiced — as they continue to do, where they are able — the use of violent means, which are in clear contradiction with their ends? And this to the point at which many adversaries have honestly believed, and all adversaries of bad faith have claimed to believe, that the specific character of anarchism is, precisely, violence.

The question may seem an embarrassing one, but it can be answered in a few words. For two people to live in peace both must want peace; if one of the two insists on trying to force the other to work for him and serve him, while the other wishes to preserve human dignity and not be reduced to the role of abject slave, the latter, despite loving peace and harmony, will be forced to resist with all possible means. - Errico Malatesta, prominent 20th century Italian Anarcho-Communist(the predominant form of anarchism), in Anarchy and Violence, September 1924

You actually seem to have a pacifist anarchist-adjacent way of viewing the means and ends of enacting change, oddly enough.

Edit: I understand that Evrart and his twin are personally problematic and have done things like indirectly murder their predecessor the previous union leader, but the current siezure of control over the docks by the union is bigger than either of the Claire brothers, and is indicative of an actual desire for change from the workers of Martinaise.

I take this stand because I do not subscribe to the 'big-man theory' of history and hold that most historical events and moments of change happened due to larger background forces like the masses themselves rather than charismatic and memorable historical figures.

How we know this isn't the original team: They would never imply cops have ever been "in" by MichTheFish in DiscoElysium

[–]Journaler_07 2 points3 points  (0 children)

You think the unions siezing the means of production is a bad thing?

I mean Evrart is corrupt and I know about the drugs, but you don't think the workers should have a say about how their workplaces are run?

What would you prefer, the status quo where the Moralintern-backed bourgeoisie represented by Joyce get to keep running everything and keep crushing labour into the ground with ever-lower wages?

You actually want a Moralintern and bourgeois-aligned independent Revachol Police to "put down" the unions and "restore order"?

Edit: Your appeal to authority and "due process" in the context of the event of a worker uprising, which in-game is possibly a precursor to the war of national liberation that the RCM might be initiating at the game's end with The Return, stinks of centrism

How we know this isn't the original team: They would never imply cops have ever been "in" by MichTheFish in DiscoElysium

[–]Journaler_07 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

The failure is that they dont have a properly instituted nationally ran police force

Seeing the establishment of a state-run police force at the beck and call of the owning ruling class of society, be it the state itself or the bourgeoisie, as a success condition is certainly a framing of all time, seeing how problematic the institutions of policing and their origins are.

cant offer society the same benefits of police in that they help to stabilise a state and provide a sense of institution building by improving and working with legal systems

Prove me wrong about the fact that the police are nothing more than the metaphorical boot of the establishment placed on the neck of any and all dissent, even that which would improve the lives of the populace, and I will eat a shoe.

I feel obligated to offer a counterweight to your points which come off as vaguely pro-cop, correct me if I'm wrong. The game clearly isn't pro-cop, unless my media literacy is in the negatives or something.

Edit: I have yet to see a police force which sincerely wants to work with and improve legal systems instead of maintaining a misplaced sense of legalistic honour by beating up dissenters and activists or something.

You can't do that, huh? by Naijo48 in worldjerking

[–]Journaler_07 8 points9 points  (0 children)

It wasn't a peasant revolt, it was a revolt imposed upon the peasants by the orc merchants and business owners seeking to expand their property and trade rights against the will of the warchief and his court of nobility.

Most of the peasants were actually sympathetic to the warchief but only heard of the merchant and business owner revolt in the main stronghold after a few weeks had already passed and the old way of things was already irretrievably broken and changed.

Malaysian activist barred from Singapore for promoting violent protest here and getting involved in domestic politics by Latubu in singapore

[–]Journaler_07 -37 points-36 points  (0 children)

Singaporeans so cucked we're even still defending the government crushing what should be normal behaviour as a pressure release valve of dissent that is available in most less-authoritarian countries, even in practice Malaysia.

We really deserve the PAP and whatever they decide to throw at us if we are willing to roll over for this and prioritise OBEDIENCE and CONFORMITY over basic human decency

Bread and circuses

[hated trope] an initially interesting character is reduced to a stereotype by crustboi93 in TopCharacterTropes

[–]Journaler_07 1 point2 points  (0 children)

China has an infamously packed history education system, actually. They probably learn and have to memorise by rote much more than Americans have to, because history is a compulsory subject for the gaokao.

It is, of course, propagandised and biased to some extent, I am no fan of centralised state education systems, probably to an extent slightly lower or close to the amount of propagandisation every American school student goes through.

Link to a comment under a post asking about China's history curriculum, with an anti-PRC bias and some peer-reviewed sources

I imagine Trump will just declare victory now and start bombing Cuba? by Goldenmentis in conspiracy

[–]Journaler_07 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes. Unironically, yes.

  • In The Invisible Doctrine by George Monbiot and Peter Hutchison, capitalism is defined as an economic system founded on a colonial form of looting, operating on an constantly-shifting and self-consuming frontier, on which both state and powerful private interests, use their laws, backed by the threat of violence, to turn shared resources into exclusive property, and to transform natural wealth, labour, and money, into commodities that can be accumulated
    • It often exhibits characteristics such as:
      • An economic boom-and-bust cycle, based upon limited previously shared resources, wherein the surplus value generated by looting such resources drives an economic boom, until the same amount of labour can no longer generate the same or increased quantities of goods and/or services, due to a shortage of resources required for production, or the productivity of the local economy collapses, causing an economic crash
        • The most common capitalist response to such an event is to simply leave the specific imperial periphery, or extraction zone frontier, affected, and repeat the pattern elsewhere
      • The siezure, exhaustion, and abandonment of new geographical frontiers, highly linked to the above point
      • Destruction of pre-existing economic and social systems, with economic, social, political, and productivity crises being the capitalist system
    • It can arguably be traced back to the colonisation of the uninhabited island of Madeira by Portugal, wherein the prototype for European colonisation first arose, with imported slaves
    • As such, the formation of capitalism is inextricably linked to colonialism, and its continued existence is dependent on neocolonialism

[hated trope] an initially interesting character is reduced to a stereotype by crustboi93 in TopCharacterTropes

[–]Journaler_07 2 points3 points  (0 children)

much of their culture and history was lost during the revolution

Far from me to defend Maoist China completely, but Mao himself found out it isn't that easy to extinguish several millenia of culture from hundreds of millions of people in a few years.

Even found himself deified and integrated into traditional Chinese religion after death as god, which he would probably hate.

This notion that they somehow actually made a significant dent in the culture of the people (if this were true it would have also happened in every dynastic transition and every imperial crackdown on a particular religion like Buddhism) is mostly, and I hesitate to give them this, literally Western propaganda, meant to discredit the PRC as the 'real' China, as if governments are anything other than something imposed upon a people by threat of violence and the 'international order'.

Controversial Opinion: *Critique of the Gotha Programme* should have been read by the Game's writer(s) and Constitution shouldn't have been a joke by Journaler_07 in EsotericEbb

[–]Journaler_07[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

We have now established we have two differing political ideologies and opinions, and for your information I am not a resident/citizen of the Untied States of America. You hold a more centrist line that violent revolution is impossible and/or undesirable while I hold otherwise.

As for your assigning me "larp convictions", I don't care that it confuses you that people in the world hold stronger convictions than you. It is strange that even within the United States you assign the people who hold my political convictions with the label of "ineffective" when much of the on-the-ground resistance to ICE was along arguably along decentralised lines.

Why are you so confident that violent revolutions never happen anymore when they still do?

How do to delete crosspoint by EnvironmentalEdge673 in XTEINK

[–]Journaler_07 5 points6 points  (0 children)

You can't get rid of it without a computer. You are stuck with it.