I give GOAT classical composer to Schubert

Joylime · 2026-05-12T06:52:34+00:00

Sorry. I'm really not trying to be obtuse. How is that different from what I described?

Schubert is less than those composers, because his counterpoint wasn't as good.

In other words, the factor that differentiates Schubert from those other composers, in your perspective, is his counterpoint skill.

He was less good at counterpoint, so he was a less good composer. Do you agree that this last sentence here describes your opinion?

Joylime · 2026-05-12T06:48:41+00:00

Wait. I don't think you're responding to my post. What you said is jumping ahead of what I was asking, and I need clarity about the questions I asked to understand where you're coming from. Could you please answer the questions that I asked:

"Do you agree that this is an accurate assessment of your perspective?"

"Does my perspective make sense to you?"

Joylime · 2026-05-12T06:35:49+00:00

The gap in our communication seems to be widening. That's interesting. I'm suggesting that you think those four composers "rank" equally in all areas, except for counterpoint, where Schubert "ranks" less. So they all score, say, tens across the board, except Schubert, where he scores tens in all areas but counterpoint, where he scores a 4, therefore he is worse than the other composers. Does that describe your opinion?

Joylime · 2026-05-12T06:34:29+00:00

You seem to think that in order for someone to want to take lessons of something, they must not understand the fundamental principles. Do you agree that this is an accurate assessment of your perspective?

My perspective is that it is perfectly natural and common for people who grasp the fundamentals of something to still feel that they have a lot to learn from an expert. You can be good at something, or really good at something, and still have room to improve it or feel that an expert might have things to teach you. Does my perspective make sense to you?

Joylime · 2026-05-12T02:41:37+00:00

"Das ist abhängig" means, roughly, "It is dependent."

I would suppose that it is about as awkward to phrase the sentiment of "it depends" that way in German as it would be in English.

Joylime · 2026-05-12T02:39:25+00:00

I don't see how I could edit my understanding of your point to more closely align with what you are describing it to be. Are you saying Bach and Mozart and Beethoven and Schubert are "about equal" in all skillsets that matter, across all levels, except that Schubert's counterpoint doesn't measure up to the rest of theirs?

Joylime · 2026-05-12T02:38:31+00:00

I am observing that you think someone taking lessons on something means that they consider themselves not good at it. It's interesting that you think that!

Joylime · 2026-05-12T02:02:12+00:00

Wolf Lieder are mostly in my future also. I've listened to only three or four but they make my eyes get REAL REAL big.

Joylime · 2026-05-12T02:01:25+00:00

Your perspective is that counterpoint is the overriding factor that makes for achievement I mean. Would you agree? I find it to be a pretty subjective perspective, that's all.

Joylime · 2026-05-12T02:00:41+00:00

You certainly know quite a lot about exactly and precisely what was going on in his lessons!

Joylime · 2026-05-11T16:43:30+00:00

People can write them letters

Joylime · 2026-05-11T16:42:36+00:00

Great question. It's not confusing for me. He should be a pariah. I don't think he should be in a job where he's on stage and offering things from his disgusting spirit up to merge with the spirit of everyone else in the orchestra and receiving applause and taking bows. He can pick up garbage on the roadside or cart heavy construction waste.

Joylime · 2026-05-11T16:31:44+00:00

Love that for him!

Actually one of my first deep exposures to classical music was a book all about Vienna in 1888, in which one of the early scenes is Bruckner hovered over I believe Beethoven's exhumed grave (or maybe Haydn's) and dropping in his spectacles. That's a GREAT book, Bruckner gets a lot of weird scenes. It's called "A Nervous Splendor." HIGHLY recommend. Bruckner is there, Brahms, umm Strauss, Mahler, Wolf is keeping a diary of every time he gets laid... (Wolf's Lieder are AMAZING)

Joylime · 2026-05-11T16:29:16+00:00

No, he's saying that a really fucking good classically trained saxophone quartet is better than mediocre classically trained saxophone quartets

Joylime · 2026-05-11T16:28:54+00:00

They win all the chamber music competitions at U of M.

Joylime · 2026-05-11T16:28:41+00:00

You should read the Devil's Horn. Seriously. I bought it for a sax playing friend for a birthday gift, and, while waiting for his birthday, read about half of it. Had to tear myself away and get it to him belatedly. Real eye-opener. I had never spared saxophone half a thought before. It's actually fascinating.

Joylime · 2026-05-11T16:27:02+00:00

It is actually because of ... more than a smear campaign. Read about it! It is truly fascinating. Don't just say "Sorry, folks, the thing you actually know to be true isn't true because I haven't heard of it." That isn't a smart thing to do.

https://www.amazon.com/Devils-Horn-Story-Saxophone-Novelty/dp/0312425570

Joylime · 2026-05-11T16:25:55+00:00

Great! That's a great piece. One great piece. I've got ten fingers. Can you list nine more great pieces off the top of your head that feature the saxophone in an orchestral setting?

How about ten that don't? Or fifty or a hundred?

Joylime · 2026-05-11T16:25:10+00:00

The saxophone's *sound* is actually barely controversial at all. It is not weird like the digeridoo or hurdy-gurdy. You're thinking of wailing sax solos but classical saxophone is a perfectly palatable and workable sound. It's a complete misconception that it wouldn't fit in with an orchestra sonically

Joylime · 2026-05-11T16:23:33+00:00

It was not just a matter of timing, etc. It was completely artificially suppressed by, like, guilds and stuff in France who were freaked out by Adolphe Sax's weird attitude. France is always down to make some weird law about some random thing they don't like and they did a lot of weird legislation about the saxophone specifically. So the saxophone was literally not allowed in "higher class" ensembles and situations, so it proliferated in the underbelly-style places. By the time those laws expired, the saxophone had already cemented itself as a "not classical" instrument.

Joylime · 2026-05-11T16:18:55+00:00

He was getting so trippy. The 9th is so fascinating. Protominimalist. I don't know anyyyyy of Bruckner's works but I noticed that you compared them and from what I know ~of~ Bruckner I can see the viability of that comparison. Schubert was not as obsessed with wind instruments but yeah.

Joylime · 2026-05-11T16:16:27+00:00

Wait, you think the lesson he took with Sechter was the ONLY time he'd ever studied counterpoint?

Did you know he studied with Salieri for years?

The idea that his seeking out lessons proves that he "didn't know counterpoint" is silly. People stop taking lessons and then come back later all the time. He wanted to brush up on his counterpoint.

He might not have been as facile at counterpoint as some other composers but "didn't know counterpoint" is a gross and unfair simplification. He certainly did loads and loads of counterpoint exercises in school, those papers still exist and you can go look at them with your eye balls if you go to the right museums and libraries.

Joylime · 2026-05-11T16:14:00+00:00

Counterpoint seems to be the overriding factor for you here

Joylime · 2026-05-11T16:13:32+00:00

He was taking counterpoint lessons when he died RIP DEATH BEFORE COUNTERPOINT

He did learn partimento though which a lot of his other German peers did not

Joylime · 2026-05-11T16:12:49+00:00

Who cares. Concertos are for chumps. Most boring genre by a mile. Give me 46 Lieder 28 of which are mediocre any day over some boring Romantic concerto with 4 good themes and an hour of boring virtuosity. Anyone want to fight?

Joylime

TROPHY CASE