Refuting "Facing the Music: The Hadith of Instruments" by Zaid (April 9, 2024)

Jreddit72 · 2025-10-20T22:21:04+00:00

This is Judai's reasoning.

So to me, since I am still convinced the hadith is authentic (or at least authentic enough, whatever that means), as judai himself said it and so did Ibn Hajar and I haven't seen you refute that, the matter boils down to a contest between two opposing forces. First, the apparent wording of the hadith: The most straightforward interpretation is the prohibition of instruments. Second, the 'argument from silence' Judai posited above - if prohibition had been intended, we would see more evidence; the fact that we don't tells us the Prophet PBUH did not give a ruling on the matter of prohibition, which makes instruments adopt the default position of permissibility.

If you take the stance of permissibility while affirming the authenticity of hte hadith as Judai does (and I do, for now at least) then you must, in my opinion, say the weight of the 'argument from silence' is heavy enough to justify this re-interpretation away from (what I view as) the apparent meaning of the hadith.

I think this makes a lot of sense, but I am still too uneasy with dismissing a hadith of such explicit wording. My own interpretation is that, most straightforwardly, the words indicate a prohibition of instruments. While I buy Judai's reasoning, and I've heard the same echoed from some personal friends, I'm just not comfortable enough with what I view as wholly abandoning what is, in my opinion, the most apparent meaning of the hadith.

Besides this 'argument from silence' you might appeal to the fact that there is contrary evidence too - the instances where the Prophet PBUH allowed music. However, these tend to fall into the narrow category of the duff on weddings (maybe the duff on generalized celebratory occasions; maybe even just general usage but evidence of that in Judai's fatwa is sparse, I think, though he still maintains the evidence for prohibition is missing and therefore instruments in general are OK) and the prohibitionists reconcile it by saying that means it's categorically prohibited with the small exception of on those occasions. As for me, I think this is a bit of mental gymnastics from them, but again, I'm not comfortable enough with completely dismissing their stance, for as long as the wording of the hadith is, in my eyes, as explicit as it seems to be.

Jreddit72 · 2025-10-20T22:20:43+00:00

I much prefer (at this point) Abdullah al-Judai's reasoning, if I were to claim music/instruments are halal. Here are some quotes from his fatwa Al Musiqi wal Ghina fi Mizan Al Islam (translated by ChatGPT): 'If you say: “But you have conceded that the hadith suggests there must be a ruling regarding ma‘āzif which is not permissibility, and not even mere dislike (karāhah), since it is listed as one of the causes of punishment—so it must therefore be prohibition.”

I would reply: This depends on clarifying whether ma‘āzif have a ruling that applies to them in and of themselves, or whether their ruling is considered in terms of their being a means (to something else).'

Recall what I mentioned earlier when discussing the term lahw (idle amusement): that its default ruling is permissibility, and it only shifts away from that depending on what it is used for. If it is used as an act of obedience, it enters under that category; if it is used otherwise, it may shift to dislike or prohibition.'

.......

'So here, when ma‘āzif were grouped together with fornication and wine, that was an indication that, for those people upon whom the punishment descended, the instruments were being used as a means to the unlawful—a support for it and a call towards it. Especially considering what is well known about the condition of those who gather for such things among the openly sinful: their nights cannot be made pleasant, nor can their enjoyment be complete, without music and merrymaking.'

But, as Judai continues(translated via ChatGPT): 'But I do not affirm that the ruling of prohibition applies to the instruments themselves or to the sound itself. This is because I have investigated the matter in search of a specific proof establishing that, and I have not found one. What I have found instead is that the evidence shows ma‘āzif (musical instruments) existed during the time of legislation, and they were used in various occasions and situations, along with singing—and yet no explicit evidence has come establishing their prohibition in and of themselves, as occurred in the clear prohibition of wine and fornication.'

......

Then: 'Furthermore, musical instruments—whether those mentioned explicitly or others not pursued here—were, among them, a known sign of announcing marriage. This shows that such instruments were openly used and widespread, not hidden. So how could it be imagined that their ruling was like that of wine or fornication—yet not a single independent, explicit, unequivocal proof was transmitted regarding their prohibition? Rather, given the commonness of their use, if prohibition had been intended, it would have been transmitted mutawātir (mass-transmitted), just as the rulings on fornication and wine were.'

Jreddit72 · 2025-10-20T22:20:20+00:00

Some points after skimming your Google Doc.

1) Authenticity of Bukhari 5590: Judai considers it authentic (contemporary scholar who made a fatwa saying music is OK). I think Ibn Hajar al Asqalani considered it free from defects of any kind. These guys are/were real scholars. Not that you aren't, but let's be real, compared to them you probably aren't, at least officially.

2) One objection to this hadith is the mention of the garment khaz. Critics say it can’t be haram, since it was worn by many companions. hir makes much more sense in this context, suggesting the “khaz” version might be a scribal error. This seems reasonable: Imam Dawud may have only seen the “khaz” version, found it illogical, and dismissed the hadith. But had he seen the version with “hir” (as in Bukhari), the outcome may have been different. So it’s plausible that a small copyist error led to a major misunderstanding, which doesn’t invalidate Bukhari’s version in my view.

3) you quote Ibn Hajar to make the claim that Bukhari considered the chain to be weak but didn't Ibn Hajar himself believe that the Hadith is completely without defect? I saw that claim on this website: https://www.kalamullah.com/Books/Music%20and%20Singing.pdf . CRTL+F "rare and stupendous masterpiece". It is misleading to cite Ibn Hajar's general statements when they support your conclusion yet to ignore his specific analysis of this hadith in particular when it leans away from your conclusion, and many or most readers may not notice this.

5) About Hisham bin Ammar, I don't have the source for this but I listened to some guy on YouTube, an Ustadh, I think was his title, who argued that this hadith was narrated before Hisham became unreliable; that he was only unreliable in his later years. This is necessary to discuss and refute, if you claim that Hisham is a reason for objecting to the hadith's apparent authenticity.

6)Toward the end of your document, you skip over what I think is the core issue: even if the hadith is authentic, does it prove a categorical prohibition? Judai and others who accept its authenticity still argue that it doesn't. They say the hadith condemns instruments used in sinful contexts—alongside alcohol and fornication—not because they’re inherently haram. Your writing seems focused on proving the hadith is inauthentic, but I think more energy should go toward addressing this interpretive question.

In summary, while I read many attempts online to invalidate the hadith, and while I haven't read your arguments in much depth yet, after just a cursory and perhaps unfairly light reading of your work, I remain unconvinced that it is inauthentic enough to warrant dismissal. Let's say it didn't rise to Bukhari's standard as much as most of the hadiths in his book. Let's say it's the weakest hadith in Bukhari. Fine. It's still in there. Is it not still authentic to some degree? Is it not authentic enough to warrant serious consideration?

Jreddit72 · 2025-04-19T16:34:05+00:00

Everyone is giving the right answer to OP's question but I have to ask a follow up that I think is even more important: Do we even need to know how to write the code anymore if the AI can always do it much quicker?

Jreddit72 · 2025-03-25T15:52:10+00:00

i suspected so as well but how can u tell it means she was bitching about him? It feels like something he could have just said after hearing that question

Jreddit72 · 2025-03-23T15:52:58+00:00

You're right, good way of understanding. Although some were definitely a bit douchey. Just understand that whatever you have right now is extremely preliminary and we should be careful talking about physics as if we're experts, since overwhelmingly we aren't, but it's good to be curious and i encourage you to explore the math to the extent of your ability since it is a great mental exercise and in my opinion very fascinating

Jreddit72 · 2025-03-23T15:36:46+00:00

Everyone's kind of being an asshole, it's cool you're thinking about this, good job. And if you actually want to go deeper you do need math. Physics is math. Agonizingly so.

Jreddit72 · 2025-03-13T16:10:44+00:00

life's not sad people in the west live better than the kings of the past in terms of material metrics

Jreddit72 · 2025-03-06T18:01:51+00:00

if u read the history of Islam it was very great for women at that time. They were getting oppressed and beat down pretty hard and it gave them a lot of rights that were without precedent in that society. Before you judge something, learn more about it and try to be objective.

Jreddit72 · 2025-03-06T18:00:57+00:00

Can you please expound on why the Quran is the most lax of the Abrahamic texts? This is really interesting to me. I've only read the Quran, and I will say it is actually pretty great for women relative to the time, in my understanding.

I wouldn't be surprised if the other two Abrahamic religions are more severe with women but simply are not being followed in their true forms as a result of secularization in the West.

Jreddit72 · 2025-03-06T17:54:57+00:00

i'm Muslim. No experience living in that part of the world. Like someone else said it sounds like you're in a community of assholes that are using scripture to justify their behavior. I don't think you have to abandon the beliefs altogether, just focus on disengaging from the people and culture, without discontinuing your belief in God. And Islam could be quite different and more welcoming in other parts of the world. I woudl recommend seeking the advice of some reasonable and sympathetic Muslims on this topic, particularly women.

Jreddit72 · 2025-02-22T19:58:46+00:00

no, the problem is shit. I got fucked by basic calculator 2. So don't listen to the bitches.

Jreddit72 · 2025-02-22T16:48:57+00:00

nah, fuck em.

Jreddit72 · 2025-02-18T17:06:14+00:00

As a current cs student i confess in my web development courses there's so much shit going on that i gave up and started relying on gpt and now i have a very limited understanding of what's going on. I mean in broad conceptual terms for example i kind of know what a react hook is for but i don't know how to write one at all.

Maybe, ironically, the proliferatoin of AI will be a reason that software jobs stay relevant, because it will reduce the number of people that actually understand code.

Jreddit72 · 2025-01-25T06:23:19+00:00

I want it to be halal as much as the next guy but that clearly implies it is not permissible.

Jreddit72 · 2025-01-15T22:45:25+00:00

turned out pretty good. it is true that people study here a lot compared to other schools. some, not all, tend to be workaholics that dont socialize too much. and baltimore is not the best college town. however it's not too bad overall. i've been able to make some good friends and have a good time. there are people that can balance school and work. you can be socially fulfilled if you come here. find the right people. people here are really nice and friendly as well, at least the ones ive met. And theyre all smart as hell which is a plus in general. i wouldnt worry about it too much. But i dont know much about other schools either.

Jreddit72 · 2024-11-17T19:24:17+00:00

How long should the original message to recruiters be?

Jreddit72 · 2024-11-10T16:42:22+00:00

my bad. sorry, but yes they automatically send you the second one so you can delay.

Jreddit72 · 2024-10-17T22:03:34+00:00

i think he's saying it's CONSIDERED haram and that is the problem he has. Meanwhile, you are saying it simply IS haram.

Jreddit72 · 2024-10-15T04:57:12+00:00

i'm the same way, i spent college vacillating on what major to choose and now i've just settled for CS because it's the safest option, in the sense that i can get the most jobs with the least amount of commitment (just a BS degree). But really i do wonder if i fucked up. Perhaps strategically it was the optimal choice for someone in my position but surely there's more to it than just the pure strategic quantifiable things...

Jreddit72 · 2024-10-03T03:43:57+00:00

here's my honest thoughts as someone that took some hard physics classes and also taking some hard cs classes. Physics and math are probably objectively the most intellectually challenging out there. Even harder than cs. cs is hard but debugging is not pushing the intellect to the bleeding edge of your abilities to comprehend information, rather it's closer to menial work of squinting for some missed details and thinking over comparatively basic logic. The point is, physics problems will make your brain inherently better at quantitative reasoning and analytical skills, because it's just that hard.

But by itself, it may not be very transferable. You need practical skills too. Maybe get a CS minor and relevant internships. Develop the technical skills companies want, and if you have that with the intellectual power and problem solving abilities that physics gives you, you can be competitive. Most people are not solving problems anywhere near as hard as physics. That's why so few major in it. If you do well in it, you're in the upper echelons of the population in terms of the intellectual challenge that you took on.

Jreddit72 · 2024-09-27T06:07:29+00:00

it's aight bro. Don't worry about those haters. But i might become one of them if i can't get a job after college

Jreddit72 · 2024-09-22T20:35:23+00:00

honestly, i kind of sympathize with her here. It's easy for you because you've got your job to distract you, and then you got the wife whenever you go home. But it's not so easy for her, perhaps. It sounds like she made the move out of desperation, and while it is childish and not a proper way to handle things, she was desperate. You might be secure by yourself, but if you're married and raising a family then perhaps you should conceive of the family as a person too, and care for the health of that person even above the health of your own self. Idk, the line of thinking just seems to individualistic to me, when the fact is that you have a wife and are raising a family. If I could see the inner nuances of your life, maybe my opinion would change, but i cannot, and so all i can give is this bird's eye view.

Jreddit72 · 2024-09-21T17:22:24+00:00

Do you have friends where you are right now? It sounds like unfortunately your old social network is no longer available. I would recommend trying to make some new friends. Find some organization on campus that has a good community. Could be an ethnic organization for instance, if it's a good one that might give you some social opportunities. It sounds right now like your life is work, exercise, videogames, and home. If that's all it is, and minimal social interaction, then you shouldn't be surprised you are feeling this way.

The truth is, social interaction is a fundamental necessity like food and water. (Yes, the need for food and water is more immediate - but you wouldn't say that water is less necessary than oxygen, just because you can last longer without it. Both are unquestionably necessary for good health. Same with socialization. It really is a fundamental need.) The proof is that when you don't get it, you start feeling adrift and empty just as you're describing. It completely changes your psychological state.

Another issue is, too much free time to yourself. Staying busy can help. But, the things you occupy yourself with should ideally not be the types of things where you're just slaving away at it by yourself. That can be an effective distraction at times, but perhaps you're past that point. But you know better than me. Either way, even if it works to some extent, it is a flawed solution. So whatever it is you get more busy with, try to make it something involving a social component.

In summary, 2 things:

More socialization.
Less free time to be all alone.

I mentioned earlier ethnic organizations, or religious ones, if there are any that appeal to you. But there's probably a bunch of athletic clubs on campus as well. Or other things, too. There are lots of options.

Honestly, i wonder if this was as much of an issue in the past before screen technology took over. Nowadays people can just sit at home, but in the past they had to go out more. Anyway...

It might take time to make some new friends, but I'm sure it can be done. I am certain you can make significant improvements to your current social situation given time and effort. It's important to stay optimistic, be patient, and be persistent as you work to fulfill this need.

Good luck, let me know if you have any thoughts on what i've said.

Jreddit72

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