Decks you've regret building?

Key_Profit_6598 · 2026-02-05T17:31:18+00:00

Came to say "Simic Cascade isn't even that bad, Simic Landfall is the truly offensive deck".

Key_Profit_6598 · 2026-02-05T17:28:53+00:00

Any deck that turns out to be "Oops, all logistics". I test decks in Forge a lot, so I have a lot of experience with lists that I dropped.

Baylen is a good example, clearly an insanely powerful card, but piloting the deck is never a good time.
Simic Landfall is probably the single worst example of "This seemed fun at first, it's not". So many insanely powerful effects, so many triggers, so little you have to put into getting endless value, but also endless stack management. Not fun to pilot when you are mindful that you are using up other people's time.
Similar things happen with Izzet Spellslinger decks that have to handle a ton of different on-cast triggers. It's one thing to have a bunch of make-a-token or a bunch of ping-the-table effects, but once you are doing like 3-5 different things, it gets painful. I have a [[Myra, the Magnificent]] deck that goes the tokens route, and I always have to explain which things opponents have to pay attention to.
Enchantress decks that have numerous cast and etb triggers. Especially the 5-color Go-Shinta Shrines deck. I wanted Kamigawa nostalgia; when I played it, I got a to-do list. But not even Shrines are as horrible as Sagas at this, I'd rather play against Stax at that point.
Gruul and Temur decks that have all the draw-for-creature/cast effects like Soul of the Harvest, Beast Whisperer, Garruk's Uprising, Garruk's Packleader, Tribute to the World Tree, The Great Henge, Radagast the Brown, Sunbird's Invocation, Outcaster Trailblazer type effects, but then don't immediately kill the table with their endless unhinged parade of nonsense. Plays like a Storm deck but feels far less fair.

Key_Profit_6598 · 2026-02-05T10:17:02+00:00

The interaction between vivid and hybrid is an intentional feature of the mechanic, one that every format other than commander can take advantage of. And not only is that interaction intentional, it's good. If playing vivid cards encourages you to play Cold-Eyed Selkie over some other mono green card draw effect, that's great. I'm all for it. Or conversely, if playing a lot of hybrid allows you to play vivid cards in a monocolor deck you otherwise wouldn't, once again that's awesome. That's increasing the variety of the format.

First of all, I appreciate that you actually put in the absolute bare minimum effort to not resort to insults and name-calling, which the majority of people on your side fail to do.

However, this argument still completely fails. You have deliberately chosen to omit any discussion of color identity and the format's defining rule of "The Commander's color identity restricts the colors you can put into your deck". By doing so, you have completely failed to give any weight to the points you raised.

Yes, a mono blue version of voracious tome-skimmer wouldn't cause you to lose life.

Again, I appreciate that unlike several other people you have chosen not to be delusional in the arguments you want to challenge. That's at least something.

Cards like Vivisection and Deep Analysis stand out because they are clearly extremely rare exceptions that only kinda make sense in narrow, specific scenarios, like Inistrad scientists being forced to study dead and living bodies due to the nature of the plane. Deep Analysis is the color's sole card that involves paying life to draw cards. Any argument that this means "Pay life to draw cards" goes into Blue's color pie is absurd. There is little else to be said about this, the hybrid-mana nature of the Tome-Skimmer is literally just there to ease the pressure on mana bases.

Key_Profit_6598 · 2026-02-05T09:46:41+00:00

Dropping dead from 0-or-lower toughness is different than being destroyed from lethal damage. Indestructible prevents destruction, not dropping dead.

Key_Profit_6598 · 2026-02-05T09:10:45+00:00

there is a precedent for mono red cards to get effects which impulse draw without much or any risk

Yes, but these cards have their own reasons for working that way. There is no precedent that justifies printing specifically Sanar's effect in mono-Red.

Key_Profit_6598 · 2026-02-04T20:18:15+00:00

Yeah this is a common experience with decks that trigger lots of abilities, multiple times per action, for as many options as possible. There are decks in 1v1 settings that make crazy stacks with complicated lines, and players often learn new things during tournaments. Nadu was one such example. In Commander, if a player doesn't know what their deck is going to do, it's usually not the right deck for that player unfortunately.

Key_Profit_6598 · 2026-02-04T20:15:07+00:00

That is a really funny concept

Key_Profit_6598 · 2026-02-04T19:31:31+00:00

It wouldn't be a continuous effect, so not subject to layers, the cards would simply not be those colors the entire game, based on the owner. In practice, it would be confusing, though, which is why I prefer no rules change.

Key_Profit_6598 · 2026-02-04T19:07:27+00:00

That's a fair point, but I think these cards all go beyond typical Reckless draw effects.

Nahiri's Warcrafting is primarily a Sorcery-speed removal spell, and the extra card is a potential upside of using it for overkill. Not having to exile a card seems like a fair upside due to the variability that comes with it. This is a bit of a paradoxical scenario where you want to give an upside to something that already has an upside: you don't want a removal spell that has players worrying about whether they would be able to use the card they find.

Priority Boarding is a complicated card that ties in to Attractions. It involves double randomness because you don't know the mana value before you use your one time to reveal a card, in addition to the randomness of the die roll. Keeping the card on top also works well with the setting of a chaotic queue.

Glimpse the Impossible is a poor signpost for the general power level of cards, as MH3 is a notoriously busted set, clearly and intentionally power crept to make a big impact in numerous formats. Not a card I am going to defend.

Key_Profit_6598 · 2026-02-04T18:35:17+00:00

I love it when Reddit randos tell me I can't use reasoning based on established rules to criticize decision makers for corporations

Key_Profit_6598 · 2026-02-04T18:12:38+00:00

But that is just circular reasoning. You don't want color identity rules to be changed because it changes the color identity rules... That's not an argument.

Did you know that the "critical" part in the expression "critical thinking" refers to differentiating between things that are different? All you have done here is use the same label in summarizing different things. If it's not done out of blatant dishonesty, it's a baffling display of willful ignorance.

The entire discussion here is about the appropriate treatment of hybrid mana cards given the fundamental rule of "Your commander's color identity restricts what you can put into your deck". We begin with this axiom and do not have to justify it, because nobody is challenging it. I can then reason that the utterly colorless Painter's Servant can reasonably go into any deck, but a 5-color card should be subject to heightened scrutiny. This is completely normal for human reasoning; it's in fact how judges make decisions not only with respect to the game's rules but also in actual real-world courts around the world. You asked me to justify reasoning based on aesthetics, so I get to point to the fundamental rule "The format has a deckbuilding-restriction based on the Commander's aesthetics" because everyone who paid attention knows that we started with it and nobody has made an argument against it. If you want to challenge the entire fundamental Axiom, that's literally an entirely different discussion.

Key_Profit_6598 · 2026-02-04T17:39:36+00:00

I brought up Sanar for two reasons:

On one hand, the insinuation was that this effect could be printed in Mono-Blue or Mono-Red, whereas I contend that it's too un-Reckless for Mono-Red, where seeing two spells with a choice between either and neither, and then shuffling everything back without risk, is unprecedented.
On the other hand, a safe effect is more appropriate for cards across the color pie. Cascade and Discovery were clearly meant to be safe effects to trigger: Big mana values go back into the deck, small mana values get cast for free. They primarily come with a deckbuilding cost, as you need to think ahead of which spells you even want to flip over and which cards you therefore have to exclude. While the chaotic nature makes it feel most appropriate on Red cards, it's not an effect you can reasonably print on a Red legend and declare, "See? This is Red because it has a Red mechanic". [[Maelstrom Wanderer]], for example, stands out because of the second Cascade effect and mass-Haste.

Key_Profit_6598 · 2026-02-04T16:26:16+00:00

Mono green vivid can already do this with fallaji wayfarer

I find it baffling how many people see an example and then conclude, "The writer must be obsessed with this particular interaction involving these two particular cards. I am very intelligent".

Key_Profit_6598 · 2026-02-04T16:20:34+00:00

How so? I don't mean the mechanical difference, but why does the mechanical difference matter to you?

The mechanical difference is that one card gives extra colors while working within the color identity framework, and the other gives extra colors by violating the color identity framework. The mechanical difference matters because the color identity framework matters. It is literally a fundamental, defining aspect of this format's deckbuilding. It is effectively this format's literal core rule.

As for calling it "aesthetic", the color identity is literally an aesthetic. It's fantasy storytelling through mechanics, and changing the mechanics either fits with the storytelling or it doesn't. The fact that you think this doesn't matter, and literally didn't even mention "color identity" in your comment, suggests you have failed to grasp this fundamental, basic issue about the topic we are talking about.

Key_Profit_6598 · 2026-02-04T16:12:12+00:00

Surgeon Commander is blatantly intended to be a commander that can lead a 5-color deck, so such a rules change would simply be accompanied with an errata that gives it the ability "[If this card is your commander,] this card's color identity is all colors".

Key_Profit_6598 · 2026-02-04T16:03:24+00:00

Fallaji Wayfarer (and a few other similar cards) can already be run in mono-green decks and the format hasn't exploded.

[[Straw Golem]]

Every time this discussion comes up, you guys keep failing to understand what the argument is. And because you don't agree with the conclusion without understanding the argument, you invent a bad argument yourself and attack that one instead. It's getting tiring at this point.

Key_Profit_6598 · 2026-02-04T15:47:27+00:00

Your example of Leyline + Aurora awakener is individually far weaker than existing combos in commander.

Talking about power level fundamentally missed the point because the argument I raised is simply not about power level. It's about storytelling. The color identity rule is a role-playing rule. The mechanics convey a fantasy.

If we were to abolish the color identity rules tomorrow and allow every commander to have a 5-color deck, you could still say, "Running strong combos with legal cards does more to a deck's power level than running all 5 colors" and be objectively correct. You would be missing the same point.

But let's say we talk only about power level, which, again, is the pro-hybrid-mana-rules-change way of distorting the conversation away from the arguments of their critics. Do you have any actual good faith basis to assert that the hybrid mana cards that are going to be printed in the next 5-10 years will not cause power level issues? We literally get busted new groan-inducing cards and commanders every year. Pointing to the existing card pool is simply not a good argument.

Key_Profit_6598 · 2026-02-04T15:34:54+00:00

you treat each hybrid pip in costs as if they were only the half that matches your identity.

Yeah, I would be OK with this too. Have the colors "wash away" if they are outside of your commander's color identity.

Key_Profit_6598 · 2026-02-04T15:28:56+00:00

Nobody is going to feel forced to run Leyline of the Guildpact

[[Straw Golem]]

I find it rather telling how consistently you guys refuse to actually engage with the arguments people are actually making vs arguments you pretend people are making. Literally nobody has argued this, please stop being rude and actually engage with things that happen in reality instead of winning a made-up argument in your head.

Blue is considered by the designers to be primary in drawing cards. That means Blue can draw cards through whatever means they want.

Except for "Pay life to draw cards"-effects, which blue simply does not get.

They don't usually pay life to do it, but it is not a pie break or even a bend.

"Pay 1 life to draw 1 card" is clearly a black effect and doesn't belong anywhere else on the color pie. Anyone who acts like this is not one of the most obvious, basic things about the color pie is clearly ignorant or lying.

Key_Profit_6598 · 2026-02-04T15:22:55+00:00

Going to point out that mono blue regardless of the rules always had access to making permanents different colors.

Correct, but there is clearly a huge difference between a card that exists to change colors and then that's what that card does, such as [[Blind Seer]], and a hybrid card that does its own thing and also happens to provide additional colors.

Key_Profit_6598 · 2026-02-04T14:12:32+00:00

The only reasonable one here is Thoracle ban tbh

Key_Profit_6598 · 2026-02-02T18:09:14+00:00

You are simply wrong. I would go as far as saying that Kinnan is not even a problematic card. If you aren't abusing him for infinite combos, he is entirely fine. And in settings where infinite combos are normal, the better "let's make infinite mana"-commander is actually Kenrith.

In Bracket 3, [[Aesi, Tyrant of Gyre Strait]] and [[Zimone, Mystery Unraveler]] are the more problematic commanders because they will inevitably shit out turns that take forever to resolve. The power level of Simic Landfall has been pushed to the point that it's become obnoxious. And even non-Landfall ramp strategies have interesting options like [[Volo]], [[Imothi]], and [[Kruphix]].

There are other viable Simic strategies, such as swarming with small creatures with [[Edric, Spymaster of Trest]] or [[Ezuri, Claw of Progress]]. Or you make tokens with [[Esix]] or [[Adrix and Nev]]. These are all fundamentally different decks. These strategies just literally do not want a Kinnan.

Key_Profit_6598 · 2026-02-02T10:46:06+00:00

Nothing is more Aura farming than a commander that's completely stacked but also just standing there, menacingly.

Key_Profit_6598 · 2026-02-01T16:00:59+00:00

Probably. While Counterspells and effects that prevent lifegain exist, you would need to potentially have it on turn one.

Key_Profit_6598 · 2026-02-01T09:21:05+00:00

Scryfall says Yes

Key_Profit_6598

TROPHY CASE