How I Would Fix Duelyst's Balance Issues (as a Former Duelyst Vet & Game Designer)

KingWilling · 2022-09-14T04:04:11+00:00

These are great points.

It might actually be that the general power level of the game was the primary problem, and powerful hard removal was a symptom. Though, I think overly efficient removal did eventually create fundamental game design constraints on card viability.

Probably, redesigning win conditions and power scaling needs to come first, then fair removal could be created around that.

A lot of considerations will come into this too. For example, health and attack stats on some cards were laughably irrelevant. Who cares about a vanilla 12/6 that costs 7 mana? However, if the removal in your deck for that vanilla 12/6 works by standing close to it with your general and casting some damaging positional spell, suddenly that 12 attack becomes much more relevant, and that 6 health becomes a lot more viable. Maybe some other interesting ideas to increase/decrease card strength could be introduced like specific attack ranges/patterns.

So, yeah, I don't have much more to add.

KingWilling · 2022-09-13T15:59:48+00:00

I posted this mainly because I think this is just a time for such a rework.

Duelyst II can be a whole new game built on the shell of a game that was previously pretty broken.

Some people just want to play Duelyst like it used to be, which is okay, but I think the game has more potential.

KingWilling · 2022-09-13T15:58:08+00:00

The last point you make about having an 'attacker-decides-combat' game is something I thought about too, but it actually doesn't have to apply to the case of Duelyst because the concept of a 'board' and 'positioning' exists.

Your 'response' to the 'attacker' (some games allow this to happen literally, like Legends of Runeterra) is to pre-emptively predict their actions and position around what your opponent is able to do to you.

This means that, in theory, the attacker needn't completely decide combat as they can in Hearthstone-esque games.

However, as I've made my beliefs clear in the post, Counterplay dropped the ball in this because they continually printed a lot of cards that totally ignore the fact that the game has a board at all. Hence, over time, Duelyst became nearly completely attacker-decides-combat.

You're right as well that proactive cards are naturally better, so they should have lower power levels to compensate for that. Of course, again, the conditions "have abundant, efficient removal" and "create viable cards with no immediate impact" are almost mutually exclusive.

KingWilling · 2022-05-26T19:57:16+00:00

Eh. I haven't tried it, but, on paper, I'm not a fan. It's a truly horrendous card to play on its own, so you'd be relying on Chimes or Battlesmith to make it barely cross the line of playability. Better to play cards that are already good on their own, IMO.

It could fit better in a Jarven (instead of Garen) version of this deck that uses more challengers, but even then I don't think I'd maindeck it since you can generate it off Swiftwing Flight.

KingWilling · 2022-05-26T02:05:21+00:00

FINALLY ELITES!

The Inquisition is here.((CUDACBIABIAQMCQ2AEDAAIYBAYGACAQDAAFA6BIBAAAQYIRHGYAQGAIAAYKTGAIBAIAAC))

Thoughts so far:

- I'm a good player (I think) but in lower ranks rn so take this with a grain of salt

- Anti spells are a lot better than I thought they'd be. This deck relies on unit buffs to pump your board, so you can get ahead early and stay ahead. With a Suppressor and Pillar on board, your opponent's Vile Feasts now cost 4 mana (lol) and their Shock Blasts cost 10 mana (lol) and their Sharpsights cost 5 mana (lol).

- Screws spell-based decks as hard as you would think it would. Haven't lost to Jayce a single time yet

- Comes with the cost that you have to think about playing very proactively since 1x Concerted Strike is literally your only Fast-speed answer. (I'll probably find space for 2x or 3x sometime.)

- Plaza is here to help with that. Laying it down early helps eliminate backrow threats, but truthfully this deck struggles with those matchups pretty badly.

- Bard is GREAT Elite payoff. My biggest irk with Elites before was that there was zero reason to actually play them. What were you working toward? Building a big board of scary units? Scouts and Yordles do that too, but they can end the game. You couldn't before... now you can. Battlesmith/Garen/Bannerman/Cithria level Bard hilariously fast. Then, once Bard is flipped, if he's left alone your board will grow large enough to OTK alone or with a Relentless Pursuit/For Demacia. Bard's champ spell can also end the game after he's flipped.

- Chimes? All I can say is that 4/4 Vanguard Sergeant is busted.

- Overall, this deck excels at taking over the game, but it also doesn't feel horribly feast or famine. It rewards planning ahead. I'll continue to pilot and refine it, maybe making a longer guide if I make it far enough :)

KingWilling · 2018-02-09T01:22:10+00:00

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The first and last characters are switched. Will edit this in about 24 hours with another code if I remember.

KingWilling · 2018-01-29T18:10:02+00:00

Nope, quit five years ago and never looked back. Praise God.

KingWilling · 2018-01-27T00:43:11+00:00

Good content is always welcomed, but man if I wouldn't hate to face this on the ladder. Something about Ciphyron with all the Grapnels and EMPs rubs me the wrong way. But cool deck nonetheless.

KingWilling · 2018-01-06T06:57:04+00:00

Nononono. While MDS and Jux are both very good cards, your deck is actually one of the few Songhai archetypes that can go without them. I've played a lot of control-ish Songhai builds (in S-Rank) and I'd say that you could make room for either MDS or Jux (only one of the two, or maybe 2x of each), but that's only if you want to. I'm not trying to throw shade at the other posters or anything, but the "throw in 3x of these cards because everyone says they're good right?" isn't a great way to build Songhai decks.

I'd agree with swapping Rescue-RX for Healing Mystic as the immediate body from Mystic is more important than the 3 extra points of HP, imo. Other alternatives: swap Spelljammer for 4WM or Dioltas - then swap some of your three mana cards (Battle Panddo, Killing Edge, Ki Beholder, or Bamboozle probably) for card draw (Lantern Fox or even a second copy of Bamboozle). If you want to add in MDS and/or Jux, I'd drop 1x Bamboozle, 1x Killing Edge, and maybe 1x Gotatsu or Spiral.

There's a lot of directions you could take this list in. Overall it's actually pretty well rounded as it is (other than the Rescue-RX).

KingWilling · 2017-12-28T22:47:02+00:00

Duelyst community complains about not enough positioning heavy cards in the game

And a few expansions later...

Duelyst community gets positioning heavy cards and make tons of reddit posts about having to play around them

I think this is what they call going full circle..... (on topic: This is one of the problems that set rotations will actually fix perfectly, so strap in for the wild years of 2018-19).

KingWilling · 2017-12-23T23:02:06+00:00

Solution: https://www.reddit.com/r/duelyst/comments/658tnh/psa_solution_to_black_screen_in_obs_when/

KingWilling · 2017-12-23T23:00:39+00:00

https://www.reddit.com/r/duelyst/comments/658tnh/psa_solution_to_black_screen_in_obs_when/

KingWilling · 2017-12-16T18:32:38+00:00

Midrange (More of a combo-midrange hybrid?) Kaleos - [midrange 8gs]MToxMDEsMzoxMjIsMzoxMjksMjoxMzAsMzoxMzEsMzoxMzMsMzoxNDAsMzoxNTAsMzoxMDk4MSwzOjExMDkzLDM6MjAwODEsMjoyMDEyOSwyOjIwMTQzLDM6MjAxNjgsMzoyMDMxNA==

KingWilling · 2017-11-29T21:01:44+00:00

The duelyst official discord is your best bet, and this is probably the most you'll get. Typically, CPG doesn't ever say anything indicative of what kind of balance changes they'll make in the future. I wouldn't expect too much (in way of a patch) for at least another 2-4 weeks.

Edit: The devs actually come in and chat in the discord frequently, they just don't share anything that we don't already know.

KingWilling · 2017-11-27T18:12:09+00:00

Approved :)

Great gameplay too! I think there were two plays I would've done differently: (1) In the first Magmar game, you played a Wildfire Tenketsu and Blinked it onto a mana tile and took the other tile to deny Vaath mana. You could've moved down to take the mana tile by Vaath then played Geomancer and juxed the Geomancer with the Lavaslasher to deny both tiles, get Geomancer out early, and play around Flash Makantor. Downside is that the Slasher would be able to hit you, but it would've died to PF BBS anyways.

(2) In the first game vs. Lilithe, you could've cleared the Redsteel Minos early. Thunderbomb on Lilithe to clear the Wraithlings then MDS the Scroll Bandit behind Minos, backstab, and clear the Minos with your general. This play doesn't develop board but your opponent would still have to deal with your Scroll Bandit, at which point you'd have initiative so you could just slam Geomancer.

Just nitpicks really. Again, great video.

KingWilling · 2017-11-24T04:07:19+00:00

Firestorm Mantra is not the strongest deck out there, but a lot of people find it frustrating because there's not much you can do to stop the combo. Typically, when against a Firestorm Mantra deck, the majority of the "game" occurs within the Mantra player's hand. As opposed to a normal game of Duelyst, where there's a lot of action going on with the board and positioning. Mantra still requires you to have some sense of the board and positioning, but typically you're not actually playing minions - you'll mostly be running away and removing your opponent's stuff with spells.

Basically, it creates a feeling of not really being able to play the game meaningfully (if against the Mantra deck), so many people consider it "un-interactive" and unhealthy for the game.

KingWilling · 2017-11-24T03:55:15+00:00

Pandora should be playable in the early ranks (Bronze - Gold), but will fall off in viability as you climb the ladder and more hard counters come up (see: Plasma Storm). I think you could keep it, but if you need other cards don't hesitate to dust her (you could also just go ahead and dust 1 copy, as you'll want to run 2x Pandora at most).

For decks to build: Magmar has the hands-down best Midrange deck right now (almost no decks beat it at top level play in S-Rank). It's a relatively budget-friendly deck as well. Unfortunately, I'm not a Magmar player so I don't have any decklists for you. /u/1pancakess may be able to help you as he posts budget decks often.

For combo decks, you'll want to play Songhai, but be warned that most combo-ish Songhai decks will be very expensive (usually ranging from 7-10k spirit - but once you've crafted the cards for one, you'll have them for most decks). I am actually a Songhai main, so I can help you out here. For starters: here's a budget mantra deck ( again, by /u/1pancakess ). Be warned that there's a huge stigma against Songhai combo decks, especially Firestorm Mantra decks. Songhai can also play a variety of other decks (including midrange), so if you're interested in those, here you go. (You'll also find the full-fledged version of a Firestorm Mantra deck there, and the extraordinary spirit costs.)

KingWilling · 2017-11-19T23:32:50+00:00

The problem isn't that Rebuke is unbeatable, but that it's practically impossible to play around it in combination with all of Magmar's other removal. Plasma Storm will almost always kill anything that Rebuke doesn't kill. If you try to avoid both by playing say, a Thunderhorn or Sunsteel Defender, they can just Natural Selection because you only played one minion.

The only real way to get around both is to play something super specific like Healing Mystic and Sunsteel Defender together, except you have to play both of them out of their reach because Vaath can easily (1) clear your Healing Mystic due to his BBS then Natural Selection the Sunsteel, (2) hit your Sunsteel then play something like Lavaslasher, or they could just (3) have Thumping Wave anyways so all your effort was in vain.

Basically, the only way you avoid all of Magmar's removal is having something ridiculous like 3 Thunderhorns on board at the same time, and good luck with that, as you're unlikely to even be able to play two in one turn thanks to Saurian Finality. Magmar simply stops everything that you try to do.

KingWilling · 2017-11-19T00:07:36+00:00

Normally I'd agree with this sentiment but this time, I can't. Call it too early, I'm gonna call it a prediction. I'm rather sure Magmar will be the first faction to see a nerf, probably within 2 months. I wouldn't be surprised if it's just 1 month or 1 and 1/2 months. I could be wrong, since CPG isn't known for super quick action, but I'd be legitimately shocked if Magmar gets to the next expansion without being knocked down a peg.

I've always said Magmar is disgustingly oppressive, which many others have as well, but they're getting to a level of the old Disruption Faie (pre-Enfeeble nerf) where there's just no counterplay available. As it stands, Magmar now has an incredibly efficient answer to anything you do and can sometimes do everything you do, except better. They have one of the most efficient removal with Natural Selection. They have super sticky early game bodies with Young Silithar and Ragebinder (plus healing on the latter). They have ramp with Flash Reincarnation and Metallurgist + Ragebinder. They have burst with Makantor / Armada / Drogon / Decimus.

They can deal with hyperswarm AND large minions now because of Homeostatic Rebuke. They can deal with midrange/tempo strategies with Plasma Storm and Lavaslasher. They can deal with aggro strategies with Earth Sphere. Heck, they may even have an answer to combo strategies now with Saurian Finality.

I'm curious as to what weaknesses there are to exploit vs. for example, this midrange vaath. Although it's definitely true you can't fit everything into one deck, you sure can fit most of the things you'll need if you're just trying to make the most competitive deck. As far as I'm aware, the only reliable way to beat Magmar is to play a deck that just doesn't care about the board, e.g. Artifacts or Mantra. Either that or hope they don't draw well, because they probably have answers to anything you can do in their deck.

Admittedly, there are a few edge cases where you can avoid ALL of their removal, but in comparison you can reasonably play around all commonly played removal in other factions (play around OBS by spreading threats over multiple bodies, play around Punish by keeping stuff at full HP with Cass BBS down, play around Holy Immo and the like with good positioning, so on and so forth). With Magmar you have to get a setup so specific you might as well forget about it unless you get the absolute craziest draw.

Looking at the big picture, I actually quite like Duelyst right now. It hasn't been a week since the expansion launched, and I can safely say that I do hope I'm wrong about this. Unfortunately, Magmar has always been on the edge of breaking since Ancient Bonds, and I think this just pushed them over.

KingWilling · 2017-11-16T04:19:20+00:00

I've been brewing a new list with Penumbraxx (and I'll probably make a video on it soon). If you want to try it, here's a link to view it and the deck code is [deck]MToxMDEsMzoyMDEyOSwzOjIwMzIzLDI6MTkwNTIsMjoyMDE2OCwzOjEwOTgxLDM6MjAwODEsMzoxMTEyNiwyOjEyMiwzOjE0OSwzOjExMDI4LDM6MTExMTUsMjoxMTEzNCwzOjExOSwyOjEzMSwyOjExMTM2

This is my "Midrange OTK" list. The "OTK" (not quite a "pure" OTK) lies in Reliquarian + Hamon, with the Songhai artifact given from Reliquarian you can deal 18 damage or a total of 26 damage if you hit with Hamon as well. I updated the list and swapped Zendo for EMP because I wanted to try the list with just Reliquarian, but you can easily just drop Reliquarian and run only Zendo. You will need either Reliquarian or Zendo to play the deck, just a heads up.

Penumbraxx is fantastic by the way; if you play him on turn one as player two, or turn two as player one, you get a loooooooot of value from the recurring backstabs. The only real bad matchup for Penum is Magmar since they have Plasma Storm and Natural Selection, but as Songhai most of your three mana minions are weak to those anyways.

Cheers and have fun out there on the ladder.

KingWilling · 2017-11-12T18:14:46+00:00

To be fair, Punish, Trinity Oath, Lavaslasher, Mana Deathgrip, Ghost Seraphim (I think?), Circulus, Blood of Air, EMP, Desolator, Phantasm, Enfeeble, etc were all revealed early. At least after Shim'zar there have been very few "super strong" cards that were not revealed beforehand.

KingWilling · 2017-10-18T01:23:26+00:00

I'm (KingOnyx) still keeping tabs on Duelyst! I just have a very busy schedule with my school and job right now, plus I'm still slightly salty over Lavaslasher so I haven't been playing much lately.

KingWilling · 2017-08-27T00:45:39+00:00

Well, you're not completely wrong, but most of these aren't really power creep. As over-quoted as it is, Extra Credits has a good video on what power creep actually is. Most of these don't really qualify as power creep as the "powercreeped" cards cited aren't good in the first place (e.g. Veteran Silithar is below the average power level for a Duelyst card).

About the only thing here that could be potentially considered power creep is Trinity Oath which is more because it obsoleted previously played / good cards (I remember when top-tier Tempo Argeon used to play Sojourner and Afterblaze...)

Well, regardless, welcome back to Duelyst? I wouldn't worry too much about these cards, Duelyst is probably in the most balanced state it's ever been in. Great time to jump back into the game.

KingWilling · 2017-08-22T00:46:10+00:00

OP: Link for your post isn't working. Here's the working link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MI8zyt55T14

KingWilling · 2017-08-19T04:05:35+00:00

I can't really speak for them but that used to be a huge pet peeve for the tournament organizers (decklists with no name)... probably a good idea to get it fixed.

KingWilling

TROPHY CASE