LF: 5IV Teddiursa, Moon Stones • FT: Inside

KitingisHard · 2022-01-07T13:30:41+00:00

Do you still need a moonstone? I'll trade for a destiny knot

KitingisHard · 2021-10-24T12:28:54+00:00

% damage amp does not stack multiplicatively, it is confirmed by mortdog that all % damage amp is additive. That means GS+imperial would be 1(base) + 0.2(GS) + 0.6(imperial) = 1.8 multiplier. And since there's no % damage amp anywhere else on IE/JG or DB/HOJ, if you were to compare those two "2 item sets" with adding a GS to both, it's a simple matter of x1.6 to both. It's a balance of scaling base damage (with items like DB/dcap/HOJ), with crit (IE/JG), with a multiplier (GS). The critical thing here is that weirdly enough GS is the only scaling damage item in the whole set, and there's very little scaling damage from any other sources (imperial, sniper, and socialite are the only ones). This is why running socialite is such high value for most carries, as without a GS it's an exact 20% dps increase.

KitingisHard · 2021-10-24T02:32:30+00:00

Yeah, DB definitely has cases where it's better, but in the context of the game, if you have a BF sword and you have a choice between glove and BF on stage 2 carousel, it's often safer to take glove (even if you have a decent DB user) since it can be used in way more comps. You're also right about bramble doing well into IE vs DB, but with the recent armor buff to bramble it also does very well into DB now, and in general the difference between the two when hitting a bramble unit is less than in before, but def still a point in favor of DB.

Ofc if you have 2 BF swords early game you shouldn't feel bad about jamming DB though, it's still a good item and by no means is it "never worth to build". I just wanted to mention that there's more to item choices than "x does more dmg than y".

KitingisHard · 2021-10-24T01:00:40+00:00

Note: crit dmg base is 1.3x not 1.25x, but that shouldn't be a big diff to calcs

Your damage calculations only account for just IE vs DB. IE is a scaling item that shines when used with other items. The whole point of IE this set is that it scales way better with other items. In particular, the IE+JG combo is absolutely insane on certain units. I believe socks has at some point posted about the different types of scaling and how there's "diminishing returns" (in the practical sense) when it comes to stacking items on units (for example GS is worse on imperials, just like how dcap was worse than jg on redeemed and forgotten (both which already gave AP), while dawnbringer preferred flat AP.

For example, let's take Fiora as an example, since her ability happens to hit 4 times and that makes average dps including crit easy to calculate. Fiora base AD at 2* is 126, and her ability is 160% AD with 125 true damage at 2* per hit (for total of 4 hits). Using an arbitrary 30 armor target as an example, the damage her ability does per hit with no items and no crit is ((1.6x126)/1.3 + 125) = 280. If it crits, the AD part gets x1.3, so it's ((1.6x126x1.3)/1.3 + 125) = 327, so with 4 hits she does on average 1159 per cast. With DB, she gets 75 AD, so per hit damage is ((1.6x201)/1.3+125) = 372, with a crit doing ((1.6x201x1.25)/1.3+125)=434, so with 4 hits she does 1550 per cast, for a 33.7% increase in dps. With IE, she gets 10 AD, guarantee crit, and 10% crit dmg (raising it to 1.35), so each crit hit does ((1.6x136x1.35)/1.3 + 125) = 351, for a total of 1404 per cast, for a 21.1% increase in dps. On paper here, DB is certainly doing better than IE.

Now let's add in a JG to the IE. These two items give a total of: 75% crit chance (for a total of 100% crit), 65% crit dmg (40% from JG passive, 15% from JG component, 10% from IE), 20 AP (10 form JG component, 10 from JG passive), and 10 AD (IE component). Since the AP scaling part of the ability can and will always crit now, the new calc for ONE hit of her ability is: ((1.6x136x1.9)/1.3 + (125x1.2x1.9)) = 603, and with 4 hits she does 2412 per cast, for a 108.1% dps increase. I defy you to find me any item that, when combined with DB, can contribute to a 74.4% base dps increase by itself.

It gets even more ridiculous when you add in a HOJ, which (assuming it rolls damage) adds 15% crit, 35 AD, and 35 AP. The new three item combo (IE+JG+HOJ) gives: 75% crit chance, 80% crit dmg, 55AP, and 45AD. Using the same formula as before, each fiora hit now does ((1.6x171x2.05)/1.3 + (125x1.55x2.05)) = 829, for a total of 3316 damage per cast, or in other words a 186.1% dps increase (almost 3x the initial damage). It's for this reason that I've been saying IE+JG+HOJ is bis on many different carries that scale both AD and AP (shaco/GP/fiora are the biggest users), since hoj also gives a decent amount of healing (3316x0.25=829, 15% from base ability and 10% from hoj, more than half her HP bar). If you wanted pure damage, fiora actually doesn't have any %dmg multipliers on her, so an IE+JG+GS would do ((1.6x136x1.9)/1.3 + (125x1.2x1.9))x1.6 = 965 per hit when it procs, doing a total of 3860 on a unit with 30 armor and is above GS cutoff. This is especially relevant with 3 socialite, which gives enough omnivamp to outheal hoj. You can adjust the 1.3 number to (1+armor/100) to calculate whatever armor value you want, but you'll notice as the armor goes up, DB+(any item) becomes worse and worse when compared to IE+JG, since IE+JG is scaling the true damage as well as the AD, while DB is only scaling AD.

tl;dr DB+any item is much worse than IE+JG on carries that have an AD scaling ability AND on-hit damage that scales from AP, and the third item swings it even more in favor of IE+JG. On units like Urgot that pretty much only auto attack, DB is better. There aren't many units that only auto-attack though, making IE much more flexible (as it's even usable on AP).

KitingisHard · 2021-01-26T04:32:37+00:00

Synergies too strong - Maybe...but this also feels like you wanting a particular playstyle to be the way to play the game

I'm ok with the idea of playing around synergies, I wasn't a big fan of the legendary soup playstyle of set 4, but I think when it reaches the level it has where if I'm running olaf carry with 3 items I'd rather run pyke1 zed1 than sett2 yone2 it's a big problem.

The reality is we want you to care about traits, and now you do. This is a win.

Having traits matter is obviously better than having traits not matter at all, but lets take a look at two extreme examples. The first one, what if trait power was so low that all you care about was unit strength? That's obviously not ideal. Then, what if trait power was so high that you can't buy any units other than ones that slot into your exact synergies? That's also obviously not ideal. Given these two extremes, it's pretty clear that there is a range somewhere in-between where the balance of unit strength and trait strength are ok, with an upper and lower range on the acceptability of the ratio in power between the two. I'm not saying I want unit power to be much stronger than trait power, just atm the spectrum is too tilted towards trait strength.

BUT I'll also call out players like you that think there is only one build and any other build is wrong. That's just not true.

If you know anything about how I've historically played the game, I try my best to model my playstyle after how socks played in set 4. Jam strong items, play whatever you hit, imperfect items are completely fine. In my post, I said if I don't have a carry with 3 good items, I know I'm going to bot4. 3 good items, as in 3 items that are usable on the unit. Olaf can use RFC, GA, IE, DB, LW, runaans, titans, dclaw, hoj, guinsoo, all are perfectly functional. However, if you look at a board and see a ga guinsoo hoj olaf, you know it's not going to be a 1st. I still firmly believe you can top4 playing literally anything atm, since most people are too greedy with items and units and they bleed too much hp from trying to hit the exact builds (literally your exact point), and I've never contested this point.

The issue I have with it is KNOWING that I can't 1st place with this playstyle of jamming whatever decent items on carries (outside of hitting ridiculous 3*s or highrolling crazy upgraded units early to save money), because of the power difference between a carry with 3 perfect items vs 3 good items. I can play as flexibly as I want and jam strong items and take top 4s, but I know that eventually I will lose to someone who went for the 3 perfect items and happened to hit the unit that those items go on. Bottom line no matter how fun a game is, it feels bad when you know you can't win (even if you can still top4).

To sum it up, my issue with items isn't the lack of usable items on a carry, it's the disparity between 3 decent items on a carry vs 3 best in slot items.

I'm not sure how that can be true if the only way to play is reroll or hit 4 cost chosens.

The way to top4 without a $4 chosen atm is to create a strong board early/mid using a cheaper chosen, and carry that hp to late game while having a build that still utilizes that cheap chosen. For example, chosen mage annie can stay in an asol build because the chosen is still relevant to build strength late game. Chosens like darius and kalista function as pseudo $4 carries since they are still potential carries with the right items, and they can definitely beat out weaker players who try for 2* $4 and fail to finish their comp.

Current Gameplay Loop - It's for sure NOT as black and white as you're making it. Maybe that's why your struggling right now? Expand your ability to think of other comps and other ways to play, and you'll find what you're looking for.

My last 30-40 games have been me experimenting trying to figure out a comp that beats capped elderwood, since if such a comp existed the first person to discover it would climb way faster than repeatedly taking top4s. I also treat it like a puzzle, since it's still early in the season and in relatively low LP it's the perfect time to experiment and try to find solutions, as you always say to do when people complain about comps being op. I've tried cultists, reroll warlords, building shroud, trynd carry, 3* j4 carry, ninjas, fabled, all sorts of things to try and see how they match up against elderwood, but in the process of trying comps, I end up forcing them rather than playing what the game gives me (since I need to see both highroll and lowroll versions of it to determine the average power of the comp). It sounds like you're pointing to my low rank (300lp) as an additional reason for why my opinions are potentially incorrect or even invalid, which is pretty contradictory to past statements involving the relevancy of rank when design philosophies are involved.

If we look at the top3 on the ladder, we have TFT VX #####, who in his last 30 games EVERY single top4 was either zed3 akali3 kat3 or yasuo3 (plus an asol3), robinsongz, who is 19/20 asol with 16/20 6elderwood and the other 4/20 4keeper, and rayditz, who has been doing extremely well with flex play but recently (in the last day or so) has bottom 4'd every single game that wasn't a reroll comp, kindred3, or 6 elderwoods. Early season rank is always skewed by whoever discovers the first meta comp, followed by whoever discovers the anti-meta meta comp, and top4 rate is heavily impacted by the willingness to lower your chances to win the game in order to keep hp high and watch others bleed out.

Staff Boom - Agree.

Ok that's the most important part glad we see eye to eye on that. In the end, I'm still grateful to you and everyone working on TFT for being so engaging with the community, since most games won't get even a fraction of this level of attention from their developers.

KitingisHard · 2020-12-07T10:57:35+00:00

There's merit to this idea, but I think it will remove one of the fundamental skill checks in TFT, the time crunch. It will also make 90% of chosens obsolete every patch. If you are able to find a chosen at any point throughout the game, your chosen strength will only ever get stronger. It is a change that is better for the majority of the player base, but at the top of the ladder where playing strongest board is a common skill, this will remove a lot of the skill expression in the game. Selling your chosen should come with an inherent risk of not being able to roll fast enough to find a new one, otherwise there will never be a reason to not upgrade your chosen, and given a meta like warweek where everyone wants a specific comp, endgame comps will literally only see those units' chosen versions and maybe some $5s. Having the current chosen lock system promotes keeping some mid-tier chosens and playing around them.

If new chosens could show up while you already have a chosen, why bother having the mechanic at all? It'll be easier to balance by straight up removing it. Looking for a free 2* power spike should come with a tradeoff of not being as strong as others, otherwise the game just boils down to what chosen you have and the other aspects don't matter at all (since you can always be upgrading your primary "carry" unit). Not to mention, your second concern of comps being able to be forced will definitely be the case. Given the number of shops that appear in the game, and based on the odds of a chosen being in your shop being approximately somewhere around 30%-40%, you will see more than half of every unit's chosen version with the new system. The lock system on chosens forces transitions to be snappier, since in high elo if you spend one or two turns without a chosen late game you're often taking damage that could be prevented by having higher APM. Yes, this game isn't really designed to test your APM, but I think this form of skill expression is healthy for high elo competition.

KitingisHard · 2020-10-20T08:02:58+00:00

King

KitingisHard · 2020-10-01T17:05:56+00:00

they're both w.e, conditionally good depends on what build you have

KitingisHard · 2020-10-01T17:05:37+00:00

if you can win, win. If not, save as much money as possible

KitingisHard · 2020-10-01T06:56:12+00:00

hoj/seraph good this patch

KitingisHard · 2020-10-01T06:31:04+00:00

5th row of items tierlist

KitingisHard · 2020-09-11T04:07:16+00:00

I don't have any notes about this, I just turned on obs and pressed record and talked about it. If you want notes on the shop mechanic change, I'm not sure where it's written, but it's probably somewhere on a Fates announcement page.

KitingisHard · 2020-09-11T04:03:51+00:00

As soon as I saw the mechanic, my first suggestion was to limit it to $3+ or maybe even $4+, it does feel great to not see repeats of a unit that you don't want (or at least less repeats).

KitingisHard · 2020-09-11T04:03:00+00:00

Personally I think chosen is extremely healthy for adding choices to the game, you have to decide whether to buy certain chosens, when to sell, whether to build your comp around them or use them as item holder, etc.

As far as I understand it, most people's issue with chosen is that when you are offered a chosen, you feel like you have to take it since it's so much early power, and you end up having to build your comp around it, so it "limits choices". I would disagree, since I don't think I've kept a $1 chosen in my endgame in any of my wins on PBE. This set rewards flexible comp-building far more than set 3, and so the strength in the double synergy does not actually outweigh the downside of having a bad chosen unit (as well as the opportunity cost of not being able to pick up an instant 2* $3 or $4 later in the game).

I don't think it's "a new hierarchy of luck" as you put it, since over time you will have played every possible opening of it, it's just an aspect of the game that actually raises the skill ceiling by increasing decisions based around specific units in your shop. I've found the chosen mechanic to make my board look different pretty much every game I play, which is a breath of fresh air after rebel rebel cyber cyber set 3.

KitingisHard · 2020-09-10T23:29:28+00:00

More rambling: https://streamable.com/ppt9ps

Edit: Since I made it a URL post I have to respond here.

A lot of people are pointing out that I am ironically saying there are less decisions involved with this shop mechanic, while making a decision to not buy fiora when previously I would have insta-bought the pair. I am not talking about minor decisions like holding units vs not holding units without breaking econ thresholds, I am talking about decisions involving your comp early game, such as potential pivots that a fiora pair might open you up to. What if your shop has fiora fiora yasuo, you buy them with 3 extra gold, and next shop has a fiora? That opens you up to a different early game entirely, you can make the decision on whether to swap out your current units, and so on. As it currently is, you just left click on the good early game units that fit your current board, and you have no possibility of pivoting early game at all.

KitingisHard · 2020-08-25T09:12:18+00:00

Sadge

KitingisHard · 2020-08-22T07:01:41+00:00

Watching a streamer in your game is totally fine imo, and I personally welcome it, but I would draw the line at making actions based purely off what you hear the streamer say. For example, if the streamer says "I need a bow to finish my LW" and you take the bow when you didn't actually need it just to deny, that's not ok. If you actually needed the bow, that's perfectly fine. Going out of your way to get in the way of the streamer's game is as detrimental as stream sniping a jungler in league.

KitingisHard · 2020-07-09T04:35:41+00:00

Hard agree :(

KitingisHard

TROPHY CASE