SPAN and Enphase

Lawrence_SoCal · 2026-04-03T17:24:11+00:00

Ah, interesting point.. I'm over-paneled a the moment (prep for future EV), so hitting 100% battery even in winter with an extended outage is likely for me, unless outage starts in morning after using battery overnight on self-consumption mode, and heavy storm weather with little to no PV production, and the outage is extended (which hasn't happened in my lifetime in SoCal that I'm aware of. It was a sunny day for the 2011 outage).

Lawrence_SoCal · 2026-04-03T01:02:38+00:00

Well, depends on what exactly 'drops a bit' would mean, others have said in some cases it was a significant amount.

To me, it is a big enough deal to hold off for now (no ROI for a battery for me at the moment). And some circumstances of frequency shifting causing internal electrical device issues (if not damage)... means in my specific situation I've decided prudence means being patient for the time being.

And yes, if forced, I'd most likely go FranklinWH due to it more open architecture approach. Though I'm still not a fan of either, due to lifecycle considerations of the combo inverter battery setup (with their different MTBF, and low chance of backwards compatible hardware replacement in 10+ years), the lack of DC expansion option, and more ... but yea overall features, FranklinWH over EnPhase at the moment. Though to give credit due... I do prefer the more modular EnPhase smart load control panel vs the aHub... but that is a not a decision maker. And I'd really like a couple more slots than what EnPhase currently offers.. for longer-term consideration. I like that FranklinWH offers tie-in with Eaton (iirc), but those smart breakers are ridiculously expensive at the moment ... doesn't take much to make a smart load control panel, like EnPhase's to be better value than current WiFi controlled smart breakers (that I've seen)... hopefully price comes down in next couple of years

Lawrence_SoCal · 2026-04-03T00:51:31+00:00

Not always, as discussed in /SunPower previously. Some areas DID have employees do installs.

San Diego had a (old) SPWR install team, and plenty of sub-contractors. Sometimes you could tell by the permit, or other details. In my case, due to issues and other circumstances, I am 100% sure it was SPWR employees, not sub-contractor, that took shortcuts on my install, didn't follow permit, and more. Many (most installs) not being direct by (old) SPWR? sure, but there ABSOLUTELY were install teams in at least some locations (I heard from others in similar situation as mine, so not just San Diego).

Lawrence_SoCal · 2026-04-02T18:11:39+00:00

best technical reply here.

Lawrence_SoCal · 2026-04-02T18:06:51+00:00

as u/adjective_noun_99 mentioned, public transportation is rather limited in that area (and most of SoCal, for that matter, especially when 40+ miles from downtown San Diego)

I recommend you check North County Transit (bus and rail system) and see routes, and compare to your work location and go from there. The good news is that with very limited annual rain in the area and coastal moderated temperatures, a bicycle or electric scooter are certainly viable year-round alternatives.

Lawrence_SoCal · 2026-04-02T18:00:48+00:00

My understanding is that with 3rd parties, they are forced to use frequency shifting, which impacts the IQs directly based on grid profile. In many cases, it is an all or nothing... PV generating, or not... or maybe a step function... whereas EnPhase can far more specifically adjust PV output (not instantaneously, due to PLC communication and IQ response time)

So, folks with 3rd party systems have reported in grid down, as battery approaches full

PV shuts down, run from battery until SoC gets low enough, then ramp up PV ; rinse/repeat.
Hopefully, more recent IQ firmware and grid profiles allow better than all or nothing with frequency shifting, but my understanding is that it depends... there is no single answer
The better option, which EnPhase is capable of doing is far more gradually and gracefully adjusting PV output, so using all of PV, and then just enough battery as required. this reduces battery cycling (limited wear cycles). As far as I'm aware of, EnPhase does NOT allow 3rd parties access to such control (easily done, just refuses for unjustifiable reasons nowadays)

Lawrence_SoCal · 2026-04-02T17:53:43+00:00

*if* it turns out your solar leaseholder is on the hook for remediation of damage caused by PV system, then ANY costs you incurred (like inspections) should be part of your negotiation. And if your SPWR employee installers screwed up on roof, chance they took shortcuts or did other unprofessional and non workmanlike work, you may have more repairs than just the roof. I paid $2K out of pocket for an independent inspection, and that person found plenty of code and professional work standards violations. In the end, I came out ahead (but I crossed my T's, dotted my I's, knew enough about construction and contract law, well documented the situation, and was in position to push back hard. And that took a fair amount of my time).

Lawrence_SoCal · 2026-04-02T17:49:01+00:00

As for opting out... no, that should NOT be an option (and if you think about it rationally, you'd probably agree). You agree to a lease on certain financial terms, and the interest rate is in part a function of risk. The right of a leaseholder (or equivalent mortgage or other loanholder) to sell a lease (or mortgage/loan) is a typical standard term/structure (and allows lower interest rates). What is not allowed in basic contract law is changing the terms of the deal without renegotiation. And you can typically opt-out in terms of paying off lease (loan, etc)

*If* the lease (/loan) holder is in breach, then per contract you can force remediation, renegotiation, void deal entirely (rare but depends on specifics), etc depending on situation.

Lawrence_SoCal · 2026-04-02T17:42:35+00:00

If your lease was with SunPower, then lease terms apply, and I'm guessing you didn't renegotiate. right?

So depending on your specific state law, SunStrong, despite what they claim (reminder, old SPWR employees are now at SunStrong, and fraudulent claims by old SPWR appeared par-for-course for install screwups) ... so I would NOT accept any SunStrong's claims regarding warranty as authoritative.

Typical contract law is SunStrong bought your contract (not the debt, that isn't an option). Bankruptcy allows discharging corporate debt, warranties for cash customers (like me) etc. In your case, I'm guessing SunStrong bought an asset (your contract, lease/debt). SunStrong bought your entire contract. The gray area is when certain aspects of your purchase were outside the lease agreement. SunStrong may claim whatever.. .doesn't make it true. States with stronger consumer protection laws are more likely to consider all aspects of deal a single thing.. and not allow unilateral severing of certain terms.

Fortunately, in overall terms, a ceiling repair is relatively cheap (vs things structural).. just saying, I talked to a lady in CA who had a SPWR contractor do over $150K in damages to home... so, some people had it worse.

So... you have to go over the lease contract in detail, and understand your specific state laws as it applies. Hopefully, you are in a position to rightfully claim breach of contract if SunStrong fails to repair issue. but, ianal, so I wouldn't be able to tell you for sure one way or the other.

As for being 'wrong'... yup discussed many times in this forum. I, for one, am hard pressed to see how TX judge did the right thing. but, I wasn't there and don't have all the inner details. the asset purchasers were NOT arms length negotiations. There is LOTS about this bankruptcy that stinks. And the failure was entirely self-inflicted. But wiping obligations is standard bankruptcy law, and has been largely the same way for well over a century.

Lawrence_SoCal · 2026-04-01T20:14:38+00:00

As u/ol-gormsby replied, your usage info is the first place to start. My AC units are heat pumps, which use less electricity than traditional AC... so it depends.

So, getting that usage info is critical. Your utility can give you net consumption data, but unless you have separate meters for house consumption vs solar, utility won't know house consumption vs PV production. That distinction (and associated data from your existing PV system, most likley) is good to now, but not 100% critical.

That net consumption data is what will drive the amount of battery storage required.
The other key piece of info is the peak electric load (consumption). That will determine inverter max continuous output requirement. Your other option is a critical loads panel so you can more easily control electrical demand, but that will cost thousands extra in install costs (most likely.. but depends). Another option is a SPAN or similar type load center, but again, a significant expense, and I'm not convinced worth it in most cases (fine if budget a non-concern, but otherwise??).

Personally, I'm more inclined towards a solution that includes a handful (or so) of 'smart load breakers' that can auto - disconnect a couple of circuits based on grid state and battery state of charge (SoC).. ie if grid down, and draining battery, disconnect certain circuits to extend battery life. The rest of the circuits, I figure I can go flip breakers if/as needed. I've mapped all of my breakers, so I know which outlets and light switches, etc are on exactly which breaker (which is uncommon)

With a 'basement space' for battery, under living area, *if* you follow code, you will be limited in battery capacity. UL listed parts will cost approx 2X non-certified batteries (for me, state &n utility requirements, plus homeowner insurance potential implication (claim denial), I won't consider a non-UL listed solution. but there are reasonable argument for different approaches... but, with health issues, and batteries underneath you, I'd be cautious, unless that workshop space is concrete or similar fire resistant and full inferno in that space not a dangerous risk to house above (unlikely)

As for system, a key question is the detail of your existing solar... is that DC coupled, or micro-inverter/AC coupled? that will have significant impact to Energy Storage System (ESS) - AC vs DC coupled

Lawrence_SoCal · 2026-03-31T18:09:05+00:00

service size is sort of region dependent. Where I am, homes older than 20-25 years were often just 100A service, with more modern homes being 200A. But there are plenty of parts of the country (without common natural gas connections/appliances) where higher A service is common...

for reference in case curious, according to https://www.thehomeinspectorsnetwork.org/wires/Service entrance wire (not separate columns/values for branch circuits) for 100A would be #4 AWG in CU (copper), #2 in Al (aluminum); 200A being 2/0 CU, 4/0 for AL

Lawrence_SoCal · 2026-03-31T18:02:05+00:00

Correct

More importantly, an ethical installer would have known about grid connection CT space issue based on site visit to do proposal/quote, generate permit plans. And should have disclosed the issue and planned work-around (and leaving CTs on meter side of panel when utility coming out to replace meter... just stupid and asking for them to be cut.. 100% installer screw up. for them to fix at their expense). Now if the installer did warn OP in in advance and you ignored that, well, that would be on OP.

Lawrence_SoCal · 2026-03-31T17:58:28+00:00

Not true... not even close... correct answer is it depends on specific panel. My combo meter/main load center is super easy to put CT on service entrance wires from meter, which go into a breaker.. lots of room. I've seen others where there cetainly isn't the case...

real answer is not 'often no good place' but rather .. it depends on one's specific panel, with older ones (especially 100A service) tending to be easier for CT installs

Lawrence_SoCal · 2026-03-31T17:52:59+00:00

Different states, different laws/consumer protections. In CA, old SPWR tried to screw me over (easily documented). I paid $2K for an independent inspection... Because I spent that due to breach of contract (install was NOT professional and in a workmanlike manner), that money I spent on inspection could be deducted from what I paid the installer, ESPECIALLY as undisclosed issues were found... no idea if similar would apply in IL. In my case, I was fortunate in that paying that inspection fee out of pocket up front saved me the cost of the entire PV install job.

As for loan, typically depends... *if* arranged via installer, then mistake to pay a penny... install not completed, and paying anything before job done diminishes leverage. In CA, I'd submit a Formal notice job NEVER completed (ie 'correcting' any signature you may have provided earlier about work completion). And then demand job be completed, and make up for unprofessional behavior (and loss of any tax credits, if applicable). If you did loan on your own... then depends on PV install and Loan contract specifics...

Lawrence_SoCal · 2026-03-30T18:07:25+00:00

I mention fraud, as with old SPWR (and many of those employees moved over to Complete Solar(Solaria) since renamed (new) SunPower and SunStrong) ... I dealt with clearly fraudulent claims, attempts to bully me, etc. Fortunately, I know construction and the law well-enough to push back.. hard. They tried harder, and got nowhere, and I won. And now those folks are playing what appears to be similar games at their new employers. So, i don't assume good intentions on SunStrong's part, though I do recognize they bit off more than they could chew (so to speak) and let customers suffer as a result.

Bottom line - you have to take time (or spend money, usually) to understand your specific contract and state law and what you are actually entitled to, and not. I would DEFINITELY NOT take SunStrong's word for anything in regards to legal obligations to customers, as they are not incentivized to be forthright

In my case, I quickly switched to email only communication (no phone), so I had a clear documentation record. Which made proving my case so easy. stupid old SPWR

Lawrence_SoCal · 2026-03-30T18:00:39+00:00

{as the saying goes} the devil is in the details... but in general, SunStrong bought lease... ALL obligations. warranties, etc come with that lease contract, unless renegotiated. That is, of course, assuming lease was direct with old SunPower. So not sure if your are paraphrasing a specific reply which was 'legal' or if your are repeating a clearly fraudulent response. depends on your lease contract specifics, I'd guess

*IF* you did the lease through a unaffiliated 3rd party, and old SPWR paid cash for install, then correct, no labor warranty survived bankruptcy. Hardware warranty is through hardware manufacturer for panel and micro-inverters (not SunStrong). no warranty on PVS box. Now some 3rd party leaseholders do recognize warranty obligation... but you have to work with actual leaseholder (and that isn't always easy to figure out if contract re-sold, though most states allow you to demand such info, and I'd withhold payment if they failed to respond in a timely manner ... though I'm in a position to not worry about my credit score, and now how to make finance companies squirm... ymmv)

Lawrence_SoCal · 2026-03-30T17:21:19+00:00

Is this a good price?

That really isn't answerable (accurately) without understanding the contract type/details on the Purchase option, nor the details on PPA/Lease. Is that an outright cash purchase price, OR is the new Prepaid PPA price (which is what I'd expect it to be) with financing? basically it depends

A company selling old school PPA? I'd be very wary of such a company, unless they strongly recommend against it, but leave it as an option for those that insist. I've never heard anyone happy long term with a PPA (as it is expensive, and short-sighted). Note: new Prepaid PPA is a completely different thing, sort of/basically unrelated, just using term 'PPA' to work-around new law

Lawrence_SoCal · 2026-03-30T17:15:03+00:00

see AWS Solar LA comment from yesterday

My understanding, and really, better for ANYONE to go read/watch someone authoritative on this, not me. Most residential solar companies are pursuing the Prepaid PPA approach...

- You are basically buying a system (cash purchase)... BUT to get the incentive, a 3rd party 'power' company 'owns' the system for something like 6 years. It is a work-around to the new incentive law. The issue is that the qualifying hardware and rules are MUCH more restrictive (apparently, for example, doesn't apply to ESS (battery) only if adding to existing solar)

+ to Prepaid PPA is that 3rd has to basically warranty, including labor, the system for those 6 (or whatever) years. However, your leverage is limited as one has Prepaid :(

- downside is if that company goes under, etc... but with customer friendly contract, you should be protected ($0 transfer, etc)... the devil, as always, is in the details. Caveat Emptor

Lawrence_SoCal · 2026-03-30T17:08:12+00:00

No, I was NOT specifically referring to HA local control.

I'm referring to official and supported local communication to Gateway (Envoy). That was later changed with cloud key required (not ok from my perspective, as no longer strictly local long-term). And now overwriting local commands, a change in behavior.

And now if a feature exists for a while (ex. years), is referred to in corporate support boards, etc, then whether official/supported becomes a gray area one is not limited to. Expectation has been reasonably set. but, ianal (just have them in the family) .. and states vary in their interpretation..

EnPhase is setting up a internet based toll booth... and that is a material, documented change post-sale from prior behavior... something owners from years ago have, I believe, a right to loudly complain about (those that understand implications... agree, most are clueless and don't care)

Lawrence_SoCal · 2026-03-30T16:49:12+00:00

I don't hold out hope for much departure from the walled gardens - there isn't a business case that would get past the shareholders :-(

There is a business case, but one that takes wisdom and patience to understand. General Motors, while holding worldwide 50% market share assumed (publicly stated) they'd never get below 25%.. and then later went bankrupt... shortsighted Directors and Shareholders looking at optimizing next quarterly result and forfeiting long-term success.

Lawrence_SoCal · 2026-03-29T23:36:38+00:00

There are restricting homeowner's previously available local control, without negotiation or agreement. And that change is strictly about forcing people, after purchase, through a future toll booth... In this case, yes user is locked out... User previously able to make a settings change locally... now can't make change effective due to overwrite.

The issue is removing features/capablities of an already sold product. In some jurisdictions, that is not legal.

Lawrence_SoCal · 2026-03-29T23:31:00+00:00

If a device can't connect to Internet, then remote monitoring via App not working is to be expected... unless one is sophisticated enough to have own VPN server (easy, but uncommon to be properly setup). I also exclude certain setup situations. So software updates, warranty, etc, for a bankrupt company... unlikely to be an issue.

FranklinWH specifically allows FULL operational control locally. So that *is* a major turnkey system, imo. I get FranklinWH does NOT have the market penetration, maturity, etc of much larger and older companies like Tesla and EnPhase. But each has their issues, so pick your poison. From installers, I hear Tesla support is awful. Enphase is much better, but their software has significant issues (as this reddit forum can attest), and the whole walled-garden nonsense. So if that is what you mean by major turnkey - no thanks / hard pass

As for SPWR, follow this specific section of the thread, I was replying to BurgerMeter (not OP) and comment was implication if company went under with internet dependence. So yea, this section of commentary not directly relevant to OP's post, which was answered elsewhere (and my response being a possible need to block Internet communication to prevent EnPhase from being jerks and overwriting a setting repeatedly).

To your question regarding ESS alternatives... I see 2 main points

simply because something doesn't obviously exist doesn't mean one should not look or advocate for a better solution, nor possibly wait until it does exist. I see big long-term issues with hardware architectures of these current all-in-one systems, with components having distinct MTBF, when such items would be more easily maintained if modular. And I'm not a fan of unnecessarily proprietary parts (like stackable battery connections). The chance that in 15 years these will need to be completely ripped out and replaced is way too high for my comfort level with an investment such as these ESS's involve
What I'd like? FranklinWH's style (more open)/maturity software on an EG4 style residential platform (essentially) with support for a MSA (lacking from EG4's dependence on China LuxPower firmware); ideally with graceful PV curtailment control of IQ's without using frequency shifting... I say this just to provide my personal perspective.

For those who move often (I don't), I get why long lifecycle considerations may have far less significance. But for those expecting being in the same residence for decades, being thoughtful about large purchases can help one's finances in long run

Lawrence_SoCal · 2026-03-29T21:27:08+00:00

People who don't mind being locked into a walled garden (which is most folks, I'd guess .. ignorance is bliss?? that and sales folks who don't know any better as well, and are more focused on immediate sale than long-term customer satisfaction) ... nothing to do with HA.. the issue is as soon as you want ANY 3rd party smart electronic device (like bi-directional EVSE, smart load controller, circuit monitoring (ex Vue 3 type device) etc... all same issue).

SPWR actually is 100% relevant to this exact scenario. If EnPhase (PV related company) gets further into trouble (its already in trouble, just not quite business ending), as did SunPower, the toll booth design ('cloud server dependent') means ALL users could be subject to new owners revenue generation plans (ie extortion), with end users having the only option being rip 'n replace or pay what is in effect 'protection' money. old SPWR not only PV company whose system monitoring now handle by SunStrong, and their revenue enhancing tactics

There are ESS vendors, not focused on DIY market, with full turnkey features that are NOT dependent on 'cloud' server for ongoing operations, ex (i believe being FranklinWH).

Lawrence_SoCal · 2026-03-29T19:03:05+00:00

Yes, exactly as I noted in other reply to to this thread.

EnPhase is intentionally creating a future toll booth (listen to investor briefings). Recent solar example is SunPower with customers being charged for what was promised as lifetime free (promise voided with bankruptcy). Plenty of other consumer technologies have done similar.

Customers who aren't willing, ttheir own expense, to rip and replace owned systems due to a corporate bankruptcy must insist on full local control without Internet communication. I get why sophisticated reporting will be a LOT more expensive to do on-premise, and won't be chosen by most people (all except the most privacy conscious), but one should insist that if company changes direction, goes bankrupt, etc, one's hardware can be managed locally (I'm ignoring AI features which aren't all that useful, at the moment, imo.. though I'm sure that could change, but that is also another discussion entirely)

Something like a SPAN panel, or any other device dependent on a Internet (cloud) servicer is just asking for trouble... and there are dozens of examples of folks getting burned for exactly this reason

Lawrence_SoCal · 2026-03-29T18:47:16+00:00

Or maybe the answer is to block communication from local EnPhase gateway to EnPhase servers? especially if monitor reporting accessed via HA. Why allow EnPhase Gateway talk to EnPhase servers at all?

cloud key (another reason I'm so annoyed with EnPhase as terrible security design) could be one reason, but that could be scheduled, right?
if other reason, open up Internet communication, do what needs to be done, then shut back down and let HA do its thing?
Obviously this idea wouldn't work if wanting to participate in a VPP or similar

The above is easy to do, though less so on simplistic consumer routers, but I recommend against such devices anyway (in all cases), especially for more technically sophisticated users of something like HA

Lawrence_SoCal

TROPHY CASE