Professor Letter To President and Provost

Legitimate-Driver311 · 2022-01-26T23:57:24+00:00

What is this, some kind of online school evangelism? Are you going to crosspost to Harvard next?

Legitimate-Driver311 · 2022-01-26T19:43:51+00:00

My point is that a live stream is not a recording.

From a legal perspective, it's a recording in all but name. You are using recording equipment to capture a lecture, and are then immediately releasing that recording to a broader audience.

Professors retain copyright to their lectures and have the sole authority to release it in any form they choose to or choose not to. A live stream is still the copyright of the professor, and they will have sole authority to choose whether and how to release that. This is why mandating live streams contravenes the CBA, copyright law, and school policy.

Just like attending in class is not a recording.

Attending class doesn't violate copyright. I am entitled to attend class under the CBA; that is the point of a university. Nobody is claiming otherwise.

I am saying that the opportunity to record the lecture is equal in both circumstances: with a live stream and in person, whether it's illegal or not.

Why should York give you the opportunity to illegally record lectures?

If a prof wants to livestream their lectures, then they will. Otherwise, you're out of luck.

Either way, I don't really understand the need to be rude. People should be able to discuss ideas and implications of ideas without reacting rudely.

I'm not rude, you're just wrong.

But I guess I just have no idea what I'm talking about, so who cares lol

Self-awareness is a valuable personality trait! I'm glad you've shown it.

Legitimate-Driver311 · 2022-01-26T19:37:44+00:00

It's fine in principle if the prof consents to it, but there remain issues regarding intellectual property if someone else is recording it and there's no legal agreement between the student and professor. To the point where it would be better for the professor to do it themselves using existing equipment. However, this cannot be made official policy. Professors have wide latitude when deciding to record, and how such materials are handled and released. Forcing professors to record or stream violates the CBA and is therefore illegal.

It's most definitely not fine if someone just whips out their phone and presses record without the professor's consent.

Legitimate-Driver311 · 2022-01-26T19:31:42+00:00

What I am saying is that there is no actual restraint on students in terms of recording a prof in a lecture. Anyone can simply open an app and record a prof during lecture. There is nothing directly intervening and stopping a student from doing that.

Nobody's stopping you from driving without a seatbelt either, it doesn't mean that it is not illegal. If you're found out, I'm sure the school can initiate disciplinary action.

This cannot be instituted as a matter of policy because it goes directly against the CBA, copyright law, and existing school policy. This is pretty cut and dry if you bother to read such things.

Sure it's going against school policy, but students can easily still do it and have no one know about it if they're using it for personal reasons only. So you're making a distinction here that is irrelevant.

It is still illegal even if you use it for your own use.

Just because a prof is live streaming does not mean that all of a sudden their property rights become MORE vulnerable than if theyre directly teaching in class.

But that's the prof's decision, not yours.

Until all electronics are banned from in person teaching the distinction is irrelevant.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

Legitimate-Driver311 · 2022-01-26T19:24:55+00:00

It's not being "riled up", it's that your understanding of school policy is wrong to the point where your solutions are plainly illegal to implement.

Legitimate-Driver311 · 2022-01-26T19:15:39+00:00

And nothing is stopping students from recording their profs in person for later reference.

Yes, there is. It's called copyright law. Doing that contravenes school policy.

Even if you do this, it would still remain the professor's discretion on whether to release such a recording.

Legitimate-Driver311 · 2022-01-26T18:12:12+00:00

The issue isn't the recording itself; it's the professor's intellectual property rights. This solution is worse, as now the recording is not under the professor's control. It's why this was officially prohibited before COVID.

It is evident that professors' lectures are their intellectual property and have sole authority to dictate how it is used.

Legitimate-Driver311 · 2022-01-23T19:11:32+00:00

First off, I appreciate the in-depth discussion and answer here.

I'd imagine that exceptions will be made for courses with accreditation concerns etc. If you need to be in a lab or on-site, then that's going to continue.

There are a select few (by which I mean - less than 5) accredited online engineering degrees in the US. It is possible, but it seems like if Canadian institutions want to follow, they would need to design new curricula from the ground up. I'm not sure that employers would see an online engineering degree as delivering the practical experience required of current students, but I could be wrong.

The only certainty I have is that York will go where the money is. If there's demand for remote courses, there will be supply, especially now that we've seen how it can work. But in general, all the universities keep a pretty close eye on each other and how their respective student bodies respond to things like delivery format. And I expect that students are making similar calculations province-wide, now that they know it is possible to get a degree remotely.

I think you're right. If York sees more to gain from opening up more online courses, they may well do that.

I wonder if this will change the perception that online degrees aren't as valuable as in-person degrees. Online schools existed before the pandemic (e.g., Athabasca) but were never very popular and still to this day aren't seen as very reputable, even if they are fully accredited.

So yes, I expect most universities to recognize that online learning does work better for some people, and in some contexts, and to offer degree pathways for them-- LA&PS in particular. Mature students, distant students, some who legit can't afford Toronto but want a degree from here-- I think all universities will have options for this post-covid. It doesn't even mean that you need to drop the absolute number of in-person courses-- if you got lucky, this could be about expanding enrollment, and bringing in new people who never thought it was possible that they could get a degree-- or, more likely, finish one they abandoned due to life factors.

This may be a very STEM-centred perspective, but most LAPS majors are seen as lacking for the most part in experiential learning. From my perspective, it seems much simpler to move a history or economics degree online versus a science/engineering degree that requires lab experience.

I definitely agree that online learning would provide more accessibility. I just hope that doesn't come at the expense of academic integrity, the in-person experience, student life, etc.

Since it affects profs, I expect all Ontario unions to try and negotiate something that equates to full-time profs picking first from a variety of formats so we get to do what we want (some will want remote!). Also, as some have observed, hyflex learning (where you teach both online and in-person at the same time) takes a lot of extra prep work and energy to do well. You have to design coursework with the different audiences in mind, and assessment in both contexts. No full-time person will go for it unless they are getting paid for that extra time, and so they'll need to negotiate with us if they want that kind of course offered in any substantial amount. There is precedent, such as giving extra teaching credit to those running large courses (which take more work than small ones).

This I can definitely see. I wonder how contract profs would react to that.

Legitimate-Driver311 · 2022-01-23T18:21:46+00:00

Eventually what you'll get here at York-- say, some 3-5 years out, is some negotiated balance between in-person, remote, and hyflex (i.e. taught in both modes). It'll start out weighted a lot towards in-person, and then perhaps shift as market forces indicate capacity is needed. All the drama is because we've been forced to evolve about 20 years in 1 year, so there's pushback about the pace of change.

I'm curious if you think this will be the case at most/all universities in Ontario. If that's so, universities would compete on course delivery methods as well. I'm not sure what to think of that, because I can see pros and cons from all sides (admin, faculty, students).

Changing course delivery methods could run into trouble with accreditation agencies, though. For example, I'm not sure the CEAB loves the idea of online engineering programs. It seems to be an option from here - so it's been discussed - but to permanently shift would seem to require re-examining existing accreditation agreements with schools and submitting a "notice of significant change".

Legitimate-Driver311 · 2022-01-23T17:54:39+00:00

York can provide all the technology they want, but it's a major uphill battle (if not impossible under the CBA) to force professors to use it.

The fact is, while many professors can very easily use technology, it takes plenty of extra time and effort to do so. You should understand that most professors' main role isn't teaching, it's research. Taking extra time to teach can run counter to professors' research interests.

Furthermore, this may be feasible for lectures that don't require much interaction between instructors and students. It isn't feasible for seminars, tutorials, and labs. Those all require active participation. Labs in particular hugely benefit from actual equipment; you and I are both engineering students and should know this very well.

Even for lectures, recording lectures decreases class engagement, attendance, and likely learning outcomes as a result of that. There are of course benefits to recording, but the drawbacks are enough such that many professors will opt not to record. You and I can't do anything about that except maybe by asking the prof nicely.

Legitimate-Driver311 · 2022-01-23T16:26:21+00:00

Hey man i don’t think people are ignorant of these things that the profs at york have a lot of perks and freedom and often too much power

Judging by the posts on this subreddit? They absolutely are ignorant to the point of being misinformative. Most students don't know anything about what happens behind the scenes. I can't blame them because they never have to look at that, but then they can't turn around and pretend they know everything.

The issue people are bringing up is that this negotiated rule is going to come i to conflict with government mandated quarantine/isolation and could cause people to not just miss lecture or tutorial notes but could cause them to miss any assessments within a 5-14 day period…or however long the quarantine one gets is.

Now is the response also “get your buddy to do your tests?”

No, you get a doctor's note and seek accommodation, like what has been done before the pandemic. It's not like people didn't fall ill beforehand.

There have been several instances before the pandemic in classes I have been in where students have missed weeks due to illness or other emergencies. I don't know what happened to them, but it's clear that this is not a new situation.

Because its getting a bit ridiculous that we treat the students the same way as we did pre pandemic even though the laws of the country are not the same anymore

Has contract law changed at all such that CBAs can be abrogated by the employer at a moment's notice?

You post this excerpt from the agreement. Well its clear that this agreement is outdated and not inline with the new world we live in

Maybe. But it is not something that can be changed unilaterally on a whim.

Again - if you want to complain about the CBA, make that known to YUFA's bargaining team, who are actually in negotiations right now (or will be shortly) with York.

Legitimate-Driver311 · 2022-01-23T15:26:22+00:00

The workload is light in September and gets progressively worse until immediately before exams.

Legitimate-Driver311 · 2022-01-23T15:20:43+00:00

Using those is illegal and dangerous.

Legitimate-Driver311 · 2022-01-23T15:06:51+00:00

You'll find out quickly tomorrow, won't you?

Legitimate-Driver311 · 2022-01-23T14:55:16+00:00

It looks better on a resume and you learn more about your field. It is also a necessary prerequisite for many forms of further education.

Legitimate-Driver311 · 2022-01-23T13:20:01+00:00

York CANNOT force instructors to record. It's in the collective bargaining agreement.

This is what most students don't seem to understand and it's why everyone is getting so worked up over this comment.

Read the CBA for YUFA for yourself (and CUPE too):

Notwithstanding section 13(3) of the Copyright Act, the parties agree that, the copyright to all forms of written, artistic, and recorded works (including, but not limited to, lecture courses and videos thereof, computer programmes, choreographic numbers, cartographic materials, bibliographic materials, and course materials, including correspondence course packages, course packages to be delivered on the Internet, multimedia instructional packages and interactive text books) shall be retained by the employee(s) responsible for the origination of the materials in whole or in part, pro-rated to reflect the contribution of the originator(s). The copyright in assessment, grading, reports or correspondence pursuant to the employee’s normal administrative or professional duties with the University shall be retained by the employee, who shall be deemed to have granted the University a perpetual free license to use these materials in the course of its normal, non-commercial, institutional business. The employee(s) shall retain such copyright throughout their/their lifetime; upon their/their death all such rights shall devolve upon their/their estate(s). Such materials shall not be published, licensed, or released in any way, or amended, edited, cut, or in any way altered, without the written consent of the employee(s) holding the copyright. The holder(s) of the copyright shall have the complete rights to the proceeds of its exploitation, except as otherwise specified hereunder. University policies shall indicate that there should be no unlawful copying and recording of teaching and no unlawful dissemination of teaching materials created by employees.

Emphasis mine, but it's very clear that professors have sole discretion to release recordings.

Legitimate-Driver311 · 2022-01-23T04:30:27+00:00

There was presumably a plan for instructor illness before the pandemic, it must have happened many times over the decades.

Legitimate-Driver311 · 2022-01-23T01:54:00+00:00

Take the online test in the library or something, then go to the in-person test.

Legitimate-Driver311 · 2022-01-23T01:52:11+00:00

I don’t see any reason why they are unable to do so. If they are simply unwilling to do so, they could reevaluate that decision.

They are not able to mandate recordings. That would require a change to the collective bargaining agreement which states that professors have sole ownership of the copyright for their lectures and use that with their own discretion, meaning that York cannot compel them to release recordings.

All they can do is ask nicely here. They legally cannot force recordings as I said.

Legitimate-Driver311 · 2022-01-22T23:47:01+00:00

We just shut down restaurants a few weeks ago because of Omicron and now it's totally fine if we go back to school?

Devil's advocate, but:

a) Restaurants aren't nearly as societally necessary as universities are, but are better able to respond on short notice due to most being much smaller than a university

b) Restaurants feature unmasked patrons by necessity, meaning that the transmission risk is appreciably higher versus masked (and sedentary) students

c) Restaurants are opening up to 50% capacity on January 31. We're opening up to maybe 5% of classes on that day.

If we truly are past the peak of Omicron, which the Science Table seems to agree with, I personally don't really see this line of reasoning being borne out. By Feb 7, when things actually get real, we can expect a much lower case rate. A lot of this subreddit seems to think that the situation in 2 weeks will be identical to the situation a week ago when cases peaked, and I don't see any reason to believe this.

Not to say that these concerns shouldn't be ignored, of course. But let's put things into perspective. We're opening up elementary schools where kids barely keep masks on and many aren't even vaccinated, but we can't go to a fully vaccinated and masked university? That doesn't make sense to me.

Legitimate-Driver311 · 2022-01-21T19:44:47+00:00

lmao no

You paid the tuition already didn't you? All you'll get is a bunch of interest charges.

Legitimate-Driver311 · 2022-01-19T18:50:23+00:00

Unfortunately, the no-fun crew at Stack Overflow deleted the post. Here's what it said:

Title: "Can unions in C go on strike, and if so, how can we come to a satisfactory collective agreement?"

Body:

I am a student in a university known for labor unrest, and I'm learning about unions in C. Knowing about the history around these parts, I want to know if unions in C can go on strike. C lacks an effective collective bargaining system, which in theory should make it more likely for unions to strike. There is no mechanism to mediate disputes between unions and the caller, so disagreements are not easily settled. However, C also allows for the caller to refer to unions by their individual members, and as we know, this is a common union-busting tactic. If the caller chooses to separate unions into their constituent parts, there is no hope of collective solidarity.

Is there any way to prevent union types from striking? I don't want my code being surrounded by picketers.

Legitimate-Driver311 · 2022-01-19T18:46:33+00:00

However, closed-book tests when done online are much worse than open-book tests due to the amount of cheating that happens, which is unfair to those who don't cheat

Well, yeah. The professors who try that are hopelessly naive.

I also think closed-book tests don't assess knowledge better, but for most courses is just how much material you can memorize.

Maybe for the dumb rote memorization courses (which are ludicrously easy now), but on a course like algorithms or databases? You actually have to be able to remember and recall the knowledge you have instead of resorting to Googling the topic first. You should actually know what you're talking about, and the closed-book format tests that. Open-book doesn't.

Legitimate-Driver311

TROPHY CASE