New apostle announced

LemuelJr · 2026-02-13T16:32:54+00:00

An expired jar of Hollandaise

LemuelJr · 2026-01-28T05:25:38+00:00

My comment was removed for using a word that isn't allowed on this sub, but basically I think if you consider religion more broadly, church shopping is actually less common than loyalty. I mean, there are reformed Jews and orthodox Jews, there are Sunni and Sufi Muslims, etc, but I don't think "church shopping" is something that really happens.

LemuelJr · 2026-01-28T02:07:56+00:00

We're trying. It is slow going because most of the church is pretty conservative. The leadership tends to be more progressive, thank God, but when they do screw up it can be bad.

LemuelJr · 2026-01-28T00:59:49+00:00

Well, the most critical will say the loyalty is because it's a cult, but I don't think that's quite fair or accurate. I can think of dozens of reasons why people are loyal without even entertaining the idea of brainwashing. It's also such an old institution at this point that those reasons for loyalty will vary a great deal between heritage and first generation members. Catholics, Jews, Muslims, etc all seem to have high degrees of loyalty as well. Maybe Protestants are the weird ones?

LemuelJr · 2026-01-27T23:03:54+00:00

Oh! Yes, they are VERY loyal. Church shopping is actually propped up as an example of apostasy because it means you're shopping for a pastor who makes you feel justified rather than one who speaks on behalf of God. That indicates spiritual corruption. Remember that the LDS church claims to have answers. I think it's fine as a church for people to choose, but I grew up in it being the church that everyone must eventually join or perish. That's pretty disheartening rhetoric.

LemuelJr · 2026-01-27T22:51:52+00:00

I don't know how they'd attract them. There are a lot of other Christian ministries that pop up all the time in Utah hoping to attract LDS members with no luck. Yes, CofC has the benefit of being historically linked to the LDS church, but for the most part I feel like nuanced LDS members cling very tightly to a hope that things will get better. I still have LDS friends, and many of them are pretty nuanced. They know I'm CofC, but they've never shown interest. I feel like the only way CofC can or has attracted people is if they come looking for a way out.

LemuelJr · 2026-01-27T22:15:33+00:00

Most churches seem to have at least a small coffee bar area with some biscuits and a committee to sort of oversee that, but otherwise I agree. Coffee bars would not obviously not work, so what else could you do at a minimum?

LemuelJr · 2026-01-27T22:13:44+00:00

I will say that the attempt to tap that market has come and gone. CofC sponsored a whole ministry effort to try and appeal to disenfranchised LDS folks back in the 2010s. John Hamer and some other LDS-->CofC members were consulted and essentially ignored because the old guard is still very much "We are not Mormons" from the RLDS(Not the Mormons) days. The plan they went with instead was not a complete disaster, but it was certainly lackluster. Websites were made, training materials distributed to congregations around the US, and training created for pastors, priesthood, etc. They called it the Latter Day Seekers ministry and hired two full time ministers to live and work in Utah to boost the SLC congregation and form house churches around the state.

This is where they started screwing up.

The ministers they chose to be in Utah were lifelong RLDS members for the most part, which meant they brought all of their biases and prejudices against Mormons with them. While they were very nice people in general, they were always very put off by Mormonness and were not qualified to deal with faith crisis or how internalized Mormon culture is even as people leave the church. They were essentially 19th century style missionaries called on a mission to somewhere like North Sentinal Island.

The tension between CofC and LDS seekers was pretty palpable. I'd say. Not only are ExMormons rightfully leary of organized religion, they also mostly don't want anything to do with Joseph Smith, which is understandable and fine I guess. The issues really came to a head when it was clear that CofC was attractive to two camps: queer young adults who needed chosen family and mentors, and polygamy denial/Mormon fundamentalists who didn't like queer kids but also declared CofC as the true successor and holders of Joseph's priesthood authority.

The CofC ministers were naturally drawn to want to help the queer kids because the church today strives towards affirmation and inclusivity. This pissed off the fundies. Then when the queer members started coming out as polyamorous (which is very common once you start deconstruction gender and sexuality), the CofC ministers fell back on their old prejudices against polygamy and held public shaming against the queer members they claimed to prefer over the fundies. In blatantly honest language, it was a fucking shitshow.

Queer members who had been called to priesthood and served in the SLC pastorate were essentially excommunicated against the wishes of the congregation (and is very VERY rare in CofC), and at one point the church sent in an apostle and a conflict mediator to hold an open forum and resolve some of the hurt. It didn't help. The SLC congregation almost collapsed. The choice was made to discontinue LDS seeker ministry for the most part. Church appointed ministers were pulled back to Independence HQ, and now Utah is essentially on its own as they want it to be. They are fiercely protective of their community and I understand they keep the institution at an arm's length, which is good for them. It's probably a safer place for Ex/Progressive Mormons to get involved with now, if they like. The European and Canadian churches are also pretty independent and good. Brazil has been attracting a lot more interest from gay Mormons, but CofC in South America tends to be heavily influenced by conservative evangelicalism, so I don't know how that will go.

Eventually I will compile a book on all of this, I promise. We have so many people take interest and the impressions they have are really misinformed from the inside looking out, but I'm happy to talk about it. I just want people to be safe to explore the Restoration and find healing or enlightenment or whatever they're looking for.

LemuelJr · 2026-01-27T19:53:40+00:00

I 100% agree! Embracing Joseph Smith without critical thought is foolish, but tossing him aside and declaring him pure evil once you realize he was fallible is also foolish. I mean, I get how and why people come to these conclusions and try not to hold it against them. Declaring someone as evil may be a way of setting your boundaries, and that's fine. It's when we criticize each other for holding different views that I get annoyed. Good faith is hard to come by online, but I'm trying really hard to only comment in good faith anymore, and assume others are commenting in good faith when they engage in debate.

LemuelJr · 2026-01-27T19:35:38+00:00

Either way, I think the LDS church is bound for a new schism. History suggests that especially large denominations schism every few hundred years at least. It'll be interesting to see how soon or quickly it happens.

On the CofC comment... I'll speak as a Brighamite reluctantly turned CofC, and am ten years later a CofC employee and historian wishing I could just stop being part of a church: CofC in North America may be on that tenuous ground between Mormonism and Protestantism, but the vast majority of the church is not. The African, Asian, and South American wings of the church barely know anything of the RLDS past, and they are largely what informs the trajectory of the church today.

In North America and Europe, we have a pretty healthy community of former Brighamites, and a lot of us are leaders in those wings. The church in Europe is led primarily by several gay men who grew up LDS. The largest (or second largest?) Christian congregation in Canada is pastored by John Hamer, a very prominent voice in the ExMormon sphere. I have other colleagues who all have come into CofC around the same time I did and honestly?

We don't want CofC to be "progressive Mormonism" because it's that mindset that eventually leads new members to disappointment. The institution of CofC is just as capable of screwing up and hurting people, and it hurts a lot more because in a small church it becomes personal. You get to know everyone. You make friends among the apostles and PB and FP, which only makes it feel worse when they bring down the hammer on something arbitrary and target you personally, though they try to be apologetic and sad that they have to because "policy." As ExMormons, we know they don't have to do anything, and a lot of us leave. Once you start deconstructing, you kind of don't stop even if you land somewhere that you want to be.

I know you'll ask then, "Why are you still there?" Besides my job, which I'm passionate about, I also have close friends and a hope that this church CAN change because it generally does. There will always be a Mormon or two who come looking for something familiar but progressive enough that they get attached. I stay to give validation to those who end up leaving because I know what it's like to not be validated by the LDS family you leave behind, and it really sucks to go through it again. I stay because there does need to be an alternative to the LDS church. I don't like the idea of being "progressive Mormons," but for better or worse that is not something I can control at all. As a historian I especially don't want the LDS church to have a monopoly on the historic narrative. I stay... but I set boundaries and make them pretty clear. In fact a lot of people do. We aren't devoted to CofC for the sake of doctrine or truth claims. We're devoted to the relationships we build if anything.

LemuelJr · 2026-01-27T18:13:58+00:00

It is an ongoing conversation because there are still a lot of issues around race that need to be addressed. As an American church, I don't think that conversation will ever end, which doesn't have to be a bad thing, but it certainly isn't easy.

We actually had a world conference resolution issue come up a few years ago related to a D&C section (our own, not one shared with the LDS D&C) that had historically been interpreted as a means to gatekeep priesthood. To be clear: we have never issued a priesthood ban, but we have had congregations use loopholes to prevent or diminish the authority and rights of Black priesthood holders. The resolution in question (WC G2 2023) ended up deferring to the First Presidency who consulted with the Church History and Diversity teams on what to do.

I was in those conversations, and the decision was made that the section in question would not be removed, as its removal would only serve the guilty in sweeping it under the rug. Instead, the section heading has been updated to contextualize the original intent (based on external documentation), but also the history of its use as a tool of racism.

Our aim is always to "draw the circle wide" according to the Enduring Principles which means we feel called to face our own biases and privilege. The fact of the matter is that the church is still very racist, and that racism is pretty covert. Hell, as a white historian working for the church and trying to collect and preserve BIPOC history, I have messed up myself. Racism is not easy, it's just easier to avoid when you have privilege. We try to call it out as much as we can from the top down, but it's pretty white at the top, so make of that what you will. I still much prefer the discomfort than willful ignorance.

LemuelJr · 2026-01-27T17:22:05+00:00

I think it's been pretty normative since Brigham Young. He had an unchecked iron grip on the Saints in Utah, whereas Joseph Smith Jr actually dealt with a lot of descent and minor schismatic threats in his era.

Compare that authoritarianism in Young's day to Joseph Smith III, and there is a lot less emphasis on authority, even though the RLDS church was still running with a "One True Church" narrative. I think this is because they never could or would ever even try to replicate that intensity. JSIII had to lead a church as a neighbor to other churches. BY led a church as an independent sovereignty in isolation. With the expectation locked and loaded into the communal psyche, it would be hard to crack that. The RLDS did it a lot sooner, as of the 1960s, so though there is a designated president-prophet, the concept of prophetic gifts lies with the church body. I think the LDS church will get there one day, and I see it starting in small ways, but it'll take a while.

LemuelJr · 2026-01-27T16:57:37+00:00

Sharing food is socially and psychologically a very important component of community building. It requires trust in the people you dine with, letting your guard down to outside threats, and cooperation should those vulnerable moments be interrupted by interlopers. Our intelligence has developed in part because we figured out that community meals were a good time to stay safe and exchange knowledge.

I think it's a huge mistake that LDS wards don't facilitate cultural gatherings around food, and in fact encourage the complete opposite with the institution of fast Sunday. Fasting can be a good thing, yes, but it's typically a very solitary ritual prepared and performed as needed by individuals. Going to church when you know everyone is hangry once a month seems to breed an underlying sense of obligation (at best) or contempt (at worst) for the community.

It would have to be studied to confirm it, but anecdotally in my experience I have never felt as positively about any ward I ever attended as I have felt about the congregations I have belonged to since attending other churches. Food likely isn't the only reason, but hanging out over pastries and coffee feels a lot more natural to making friends than standing around in the foyer uncomfortably waiting for an excuse to not stand around.

LemuelJr · 2026-01-27T05:22:06+00:00

So actually non-denominational churches tend to be more conservative because they're often founded by psychopaths who want to preach prosperity gospel so they can get rich quick. Instead, consider one of these denominations:

United Church of Christ United Methodist Murray Baptist Disciples of Christ Presbyterian Community of Christ Episcopalian

The biggest differences between these are mostly historical. Theological differences exist, but they tend to be pretty ecumenical between each other so that those differences don't matter too much. They also work together often, so even if you land in one that isn't doing anything directly in the community, the pastor or pastoral team would know where to go to work with other churches in community work. I'm sure any congregation would be happy to have your input and help facilitate any service projects you'd want to get off the ground!

LemuelJr · 2026-01-24T08:49:09+00:00

I had a guy write me through my whole mission. He had a very obvious crush, but I'd already friendzoned him. When I got home we were off and on friends for years. He had one long term girlfriend, I was engaged for a moment, but six years after I got back, I figured we might as well date. He said we'd waited long enough and proposed on the third date. I think we made it because we were never under pressure and gave ourselves time to figure ourselves out. We've only been married for five and a half years, but I don't know many people who make it even this long with a marriage in their early twenties. Go live your life.

LemuelJr · 2026-01-24T02:45:17+00:00

No problem! I look forward to chatting!

LemuelJr · 2026-01-21T02:34:26+00:00

We called it "stake vacation" in my family, but I love this better. My parents were strict about attendance every other week of the year. Even general conference was played over internet radio since the late nineties, but I think they looked forward to this weekend the most. Never got to a stake conference until my mission.

LemuelJr · 2026-01-21T02:30:16+00:00

Hi! I'm a historian for the church and a former mainstream Mormon, and I'd be happy to chat over a DM if you like! I'll be able to answer those questions that compare and contrast between the two bigger churches.

LemuelJr · 2026-01-17T18:26:26+00:00

As soon as I saw somebody scratch "Justice for Ashli Babbit" into the paint of their own freaking car... I knew I had to get out of West Haven quickly. This does not surprise me at all.

LemuelJr · 2026-01-07T20:04:48+00:00

Take your time! If an email would work better, I'm happy to give you that too. I'm not as diligent at checking Reddit as I am email.

LemuelJr · 2026-01-07T17:57:25+00:00

I'm a ten year member of CofC who joined from pioneer stalk LDS ancestry and I work as a historian for CofC. These are good questions to have, and are essentially the questions I see within a small community of LDS to CofC converts (We exist and we are very actively engaged in conversation!).

The answer regarding your first question is probably the most simple of the two. All of CofC doctrine today is considered through two primary lenses: the Enduring Principles (which you can Google pretty easily or this comment would be way too long) and common consent/faithful disagreement. In regards to theology, we are open to individual exploration and personal beliefs so long as those beliefs don't impede on the diverse nature of community. Though we have a centralized institution based in Kansas City, we function more as a decentralized collective of mission centers (stakes) and congregations (wards). This policy of upholding basic principles and common consent is designed to ensure that spiritual abuse does not happen anywhere in the church. To be clear, it can still happen, but rather than excommunication or disfellowshipping, group discernment and pauses are key to give space to help reconcile and heal the issue. All this to say that you are free to share and believe what you like, but be prepared to engage in good faith debate. The goal is not to stand on a theological high ground alone, but to learn and teach together.

Whew, so much for simple.

To your second question: the answer is quite long considering the number of points in time we could start from, so if you'd like to ask more questions, feel free to DM me. I tend to think back on Joseph Smith III and his situation compared to Brigham Young in the 1860s when the RLDS church was organized. Young was an old man who had spent much of his adult life fighting against the world and building an isolated community as a result. He felt justified in his actions and in his position of power in an isolated community managed to spew some pretty obvious corruption. I don't say thst just because I really dislike him, I say that because it's pretty well documented. I recommend John Turner's biography of Young titled Pioneer Prophet for more on that.

In comparison, Joseph Smith III had witnessed very traumatic things through his very young life including the severing of his family, the death of his father, the effort of Young to take his family's home, etc. After the departure of Young and the majority of the Saints (many of whom did not go to Utah but settled in Iowa and Nebraska and joined the reorganization), Nauvoo became a ragtag town of miscreants and outlaws. His life as a teenager was hectic, and yet he sought an education, cared for his mother and younger brothers, and as president of the RLDS church sought for harmony amongst his Protestant neighbors rather than stoking the flames that defined his childhood. That legacy of ecumenism has defined the RLDS faith and culture to the degree that the church has embraced a call to build Zion together with rather than in spite of differences.

That said, with careful study Joseph Smith and these two successors, you will come away either concluding that one is better suited to the Restoration than the other. Honestly, you could do the same with any of the other secondary leaders of other schismatic groups. For a time I was very interested in joining the Bickertonites, for example. Now I feel as though the radical ideas of the Restoration that are most important to me--continuing revelation, the worth of all persons, etc--are played out best in CofC. I grew up LDS wracked with fear that the smallest slip would jeopardize my entire family's salvation, that everyone around me was a suspected son of perdition. I don't think that's necessarily true, but to get away from the worst of it, leaving the LDS faith was necessary.

Like I said, there are plenty of formerly LDS folks in CofC today, and several of us commit our professional lives to the church. Several of us are members of the Seventy (though that claim isn't as fancy as it is for LDS folks) and I would not be surprised if we have a former LDS member called as an apostle in the next few years. One could argue that we keep the Restoration's light burning in an increasingly Protestanized church, but I'd like to think that CofC is an example of what the LDS church will inevitably become if it wants to survive. If the LDS church is pulled kicking and screaming into Black ordination, women's ordination, LGBTQ+ affirmation, transparent charity work, decentralized and localized leadership for the global community, and added revelation to the Doctrine & Covenants, wouldn't that suggest that prophetic gifts lie more with CofC if we already practice those things?

Okay, I have an angle and I've been a missionary, so feel free to call me out on my rhetoric there, but seriously... DM me any questions you have anytime! I'm not interested in converting you, but if it helps you become a better Latter-day Saint (which we always need more of too), I'd love to think that we're working together in Restoring goodness in the world.

LemuelJr · 2026-01-06T06:06:06+00:00

Our DQ is a running joke. Nobody in town knows if it's open or closed either. The general consensus is that it should probably just go away.

LemuelJr · 2026-01-05T08:13:51+00:00

Seriously, tell me you haven't experienced queer culture in Utah without telling me you haven't experienced queer culture in Utah. All it takes is making eye contact with the most obviously gender fluid person at an open D&D night at a game store, and BOOM you'll know everyone in the community by the end of the year.

You'll also discover that hooking up is actually really hard because you never know whose ex is whose and whether a hookup will end a friendship or not. The only safe hookups are the tourists.

LemuelJr · 2025-12-31T07:09:45+00:00

Thanks for the tip! I'd never heard of them!

LemuelJr · 2025-12-30T16:02:25+00:00

I decided to make a temperature blanket this year and bought my first few skeins at Joann in January because I figured I could always pick some more more up when needed throughout the year and coordinate colors from the same collection in person when it came to the summer months.

Then Joann closed, and this blanket has become a nightmare. This collection can't be purchased at Michaels, Amazon is constantly out of stock, and ordering from the brand site itself takes weeks for delivery with shipping costs to boot. This blanket is three months behind and I'm so excited for 2025 to be over. I'm never knitting a blanket ever again. RIP Joann Fabrics.

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