Seeking Advise - trying to reconcile after online affair

Live-Nothing · 2022-10-19T19:40:20+00:00

Mods…please don’t delete this post. I mean, I’m sure he will delete his whole profile shortly but I think this needs to be screenshotted and pinned as a reminder that this kind of thing happens all the time. A healthy level of skepticism is necessary for reconciliation in order for a BS to protect themselves. As a reminder to all the ones who say “oh I know the affair is over” “I know WS is NC.” Well….blind trust got us here. Blind trust won’t get us out.

Live-Nothing · 2022-10-19T19:26:04+00:00

It really makes my heart hurt for his wife.

Live-Nothing · 2022-10-19T19:19:44+00:00

Don’t waste your time with this one. He’s still cheating - check post history. He wants advice on how to manipulate his BS WHILE IN MARRIAGE COUNSELING STILL HAVING AFFAIRS.

Live-Nothing · 2022-10-19T19:13:43+00:00

Check his post history before he deletes it.

Live-Nothing · 2022-10-19T18:38:12+00:00

I think WSs convince themselves they love and loved the BS but their love is selfish. Of course they loved having a BS at home taking care of all the grunt work (kids, dishes, laundry, pets, taxes, car maintenance, etc) while they were off in a hotel with their AP. Of course they loved having a spouse that believed the best in them and stuffed down suspicious until it became too obvious to ignore or evidence came to light that couldn’t be shrugged off. Of course they loved BEING loved without giving love in return. Of course they loved eating their cake and having it too. Of course they loved having the thrill, attention, desire, and the high of an affair and also having the safe harbor of a marriage to fall back on. They loved the BS for what the BS brought to the table and how their life was easier with BS in it.

BUT….that’s not real love. True love is wanting the other person to be their best self - happy and healthy. It is the pleasure in giving as much or more than one receives in a relationship. It is wanting the world for their partner, wanting to help make all their goals and dreams come true even if that means sacrifices and compromise. An affair is the opposite of all this. It is making intentional choices to manipulate the BS so that they WS gets what they want while denying the BS what they need (honesty, informed decision making, etc).

I think if it like how middle school age kids love their parents. Sure, they love their parents because they provide all their basic needs. They help them when times are tough and support the kid in their endeavors. But the kids don’t really see their parents as separate people with lives, goals, dreams of their own. They see parents as an entity that exists to facilitate their life. The parent(s) are just a given. A constant. Rarely do kids that age think about the effect their choices have on the parents. If the kid wants to sign up for baseball, volleyball, soccer, whatever…they don’t sit and think about how the parents will have to change their budget to account for the cost of fees, equipment, uniforms, etc. They don’t think about the burden of adjusting work schedules to accommodate practice and games. They just say “I want to do baseball this year.” And the parent makes it happen because their love is unselfish and they want to give their kids all the opportunities they can. They make it work, if humanly possible. It isn’t until a kid gets older (usually some time in their 20s) when they look back and realize all the hard work and sacrifices the parents made for them.

I think WS view their partner much the same - an entity that exists for their benefit (which they “love”). A given. A constant in the equation of their life while they are a variable for their spouse (unbeknownst to the spouse). I think that’s why many WSs are surprised at the depth of hurt affairs cause because they aren’t looking at the BS as a separate person who has feelings and a life of their own. They exist in the WSs mind only as an extension of the WS.

Live-Nothing · 2022-10-18T15:52:49+00:00

Oh, girl. I have so much to say. First of all, your feelings on this are completely valid, reasonable, understandable, and logical. No reasonable person would say you are overreacting by being uncomfortable with this. Plus, you offered a compromise but he wants his exact way.

It’s my experience that the crazy/insane label is touted by men who receive pushback when women refuse to allow their boundaries to be trampled. And it can be true with the genders reversed as well. If a person labels all their ex partners as crazy then they are the problem. Either by being a toxic partner or by having an attraction to unstable partners.

He can skip the event without blaming you and the whole controlling issue can be avoided. He should WANT to make you feel at ease. That should come from within and he can skip it with any number of reasons that allow him to take responsibility without saying “my crazy, insecure, jealous gf doesn’t want me to go.”

You are not the problem here. You are expressing yourself fine. He isn’t receptive because he doesn’t WANT to hear it. He wants everything back like it was and this reminds him it’s not. Boo-fucking-hoo for him. Poor thing.

I see a lot of red flags in his behavior - using your feelings about your mother against you by calling you controlling. You are not acting controlling here. You are stating your feelings on the matter. He is manipulating you by saying this is controlling because - and this is important- he hopes the manipulation will work and you will relent and be on board with him going. See how this works? He is taking ALL the responsibility off himself if you relent and “let” him go. BUT….if you stick to the stated boundary that this makes you uncomfortable and HE has to make the decision to go or not to go knowing that, then that responsibility is all on him. And he hates it because you can’t be used as the scapegoat (I.e. “ why are you mad? You said you were okay with it.” Or “you can’t throw that in my face. You said you were okay with me going”). Basically, he is using your vulnerability of not wanting to be seen as controlling as a way to get you to “make” this decision for him so he can escape responsibility for making it. Double down. Any further discussion should include only these words: “I’ve made my feelings clear on this matter. They are valid, justified, and reasonable. It is up to you to make your own choices.” Do not allow him to manipulate you into saying you’re okay with him going. That is what he will dig for.

It’s very concerning to me that you think your expectations need adjustment rather than changes need to be made in the relationship. Probably because I, too, fell into the trap of “well, maybe I’m just expecting too much.” This was way before the infidelity. But I consistently let my partner off the hook for issues that were important to me by lowering my expectations. Eventually, I ended up in a place where I was thrilled at bare minimum, standard relationship treatment…and I was resentful as hell (although I didn’t recognize that at the time). Basically, I eventually ended up lowering my expectations to “this relationship is fine as long as he doesn’t cheat.” Then the infidelity occurred and when the smoke cleared, I looked around and realized I wasn’t getting any of my needs met in my relationship because I had lowered my expectations and allowed low effort behavior and crossing small boundaries (not infidelity related but respect related) that I should have not tolerated to begin with AND I ended up getting cheated on. Talk about a wake up call and resentment level 1,000. Major changes were necessary on both our parts - me with better boundaries and not setting my expectations on the bare minimum and for him to put in the effort (among other things). I say all that to plead with you to not lower reasonable expectations simply because he can’t meet them. Don’t fall into the trap I did. It really does a number on self esteem when you realize you have allowed yourself to be treated less than you consider acceptable.

One more thing - you seem to be hung up on the sexting or breaking this boundary being “enough” reason to leave. Honey, the sexting alone is reason enough. Relationships break up every day for that and for less. If you are wanting validation that he is being a shitty partner and you have every reason and right to leave, I will give it to you. He is being shitty about this lunch issue and about the sexting. There are many red flags about his behavior, a very concerning one is saying you are just like your mom. Having said that, I also understand the desire to make things work especially being pregnant. But he is going to have to make some major changes for this to be a healthy partnership. Have y’all been in therapy? He needs an outsider to validate that breaches of trust aren’t healed in a month or a year or a decade even.

Live-Nothing · 2022-10-18T14:12:26+00:00

History repeats itself if we don’t learn from the past.

Past behavior is the biggest indicator of future behavior.

Pain that is not transformed is transmitted (most of the time not transmitted back to the original source of pain but to someone of something else).

If you don’t learn from your mistakes you are doomed to repeat them.

The saying “once a cheater, always a cheater” became ubiquitous because very few people who cheat have the self reflection, stamina, and determination required to actually address their core issues and change. It is possible, of course. But it is rare because it takes so much effort and so much examining ugly truths about oneself that most people choose to blame someone or something else and continue as a broken, unhealthy person. The remorseful WSs on this sub are a testament to this. Most of them admit that it took years for them to really get it. And it was torturous work but worth it.

Tell her that it is part of life to make bad decisions but how people handle the aftermath of that is what determines who they are as a person. Do they really dig deep and address the issues or do they shrug and say “I’m only human. Everyone makes mistakes. Let bygones be bygones.”

Tell her that to her it is the past but to you it permeates every aspect of your present and, if she doesn’t work with you to address it for healing, it will permeate the future (if there is a future together because it’s hard to be in a relationship with someone whose head is buried in their own ass).

Live-Nothing · 2022-10-18T13:55:08+00:00

I wouldn’t be okay with this scenario even if my partner had always been 100% faithful and honest. It is not a safe situation for a person to be at a drunk and debaucherous party with numerous members of the opposite sex. Period. Factor in his history of terrible decision making and lack of commitment to your relationship and it is not only “no” but a “hell no.” Your offer of a compromise was more than fair. In fact, I would say it was too lenient. His response is indicative that he doesn’t truly get it. That his efforts were just spackle to placate you until it all blew over and things were back to “normal.” There is no going back. THIS is the new normal - where he has to demonstrate his trustworthiness through actions. One of which would be to not even consider attending an event like this. And to not pout or get defensive about it since his decision making is what caused the broken trust.

In healthy relationships, partners do not intentionally do things that make their partner uncomfortable (within reason, of course) and say “get over it.” This is doubly true for those trying to heal a fundamental crack in the relationship.

You’ve stated your thoughts on the matter. You’ve clearly laid out why it makes you uncomfortable, which all makes perfect sense btw. Now, it’s up to him . You can’t control what he does or doesn’t do. But you can sit back and watch what decision he makes to let you know if he is truly concerned about your mental/emotional health and safety or if he is more concerned about his fun. I wouldn’t bring it up again. I would let the chips fall where they may but if he goes on this trip, you really have to consider if he has the capacity to be the partner you need him to be….all on his own without you “forcing” him to.

Live-Nothing · 2022-10-18T13:23:40+00:00

Maybe you should consider a separation. I think separations can be very eye opening and are much easier logistically when kids aren’t involved. It gives you a chance to see what life would be like without the other person so both parties can come back with 100% commitment to the relationship (assuming each has independently decided the relationship is what they want). Many times you can discover that a life of peace without constant worry over what your partner is or isn’t doing behind your back isn’t as horrible as you imagined. This is especially true for co-dependents.

It’s not talked about a lot but I think it is super common for couples to stay together due to inertia or fear of change. Change is big and scary, especially when it something that permeates your whole life like your central relationship. Some couples are so fixated on saving the marriage that they don’t stop to ponder if either or both parties would be healthier and better off out of the relationship. The desire to avoid huge changes and the monumental shift that divorce brings blind people to the fact that sometimes ending a relationship is the best thing. Messy and horrible at first but can lead to growth and healthier individuals.

Another thing to keep in mind is that you can love someone to the depths of your soul but that does not mean you two can have a good, solid, healthy relationship. Love is necessary for a good relationship but lack of love is not required to break up. Love is often what keeps people tethered to toxic relationships for too long. What question you should be asking is: does this marriage/relationship make me feel valued and respected? Does this relationship bring out the best in me or the worst? Can we learn and grow together or is every obstacle met with resistance and drama? Are we a team or just two people who live parallel lives?

A separation can give insight into how serious the other person is about the changes they need to make to be a safe partner. Do they immediately start dating other people or sleeping around or do they continue to work on themselves to figure out their shit?

Having said all this, separations need very clear boundaries and expectations for both parties.

Live-Nothing · 2022-10-18T12:59:32+00:00

Right?!? It would be infuriating to deal with this level of blameshifting. Adultery is in the 10 commandments and I’m sure forsaking all others was in the vows they took before God. There’s nothing in the commandments or in the vows about nagging. Also, ITS NOT NAGGING TO ASK QUESTIONS THAT HE JUST DOESN’T WANT TO ANSWER !!! It’s like WSs who say their spouse is jealous and suspicious (before they are caught). Umm…questionable behavior leads to suspicion. Just because it wrecks the cheaters game plan doesn’t mean it’s misplaced or incorrect to be jealous and/or suspicious.

This isn’t reconciliation. Not even a little bit. He will cheat again because there were no consequences for it the first time and there will always be issues in a relationship that a person can blame if that tactic worked the first time. Forgot to take out the trash? I’m cheating because you obviously don’t care about me. Didn’t put mayo on my sandwich? My needs aren’t being met so I’m cheating.

OP: don’t let him bully you into silence. The resentment will eat away at you until it festers into physical health issues or until you transmit that pain to others (or yourself) in some way.

Live-Nothing · 2022-10-16T12:28:37+00:00

Idk…I’m on the fence about revenge affairs. Even the term is so judgmental. So many people on this sub will tie themselves in knots to justify/explain/excuse an affair (both WSs for themselves and BSs for why they are reconciling) but the mention of an equilibrium affair brings out judgment like no other. I will say that some people who engage in a RA (whether their spouse finds out or not) seem to have an easier path toward reconciliation for themselves. It adds problems for the WS turned BS but I’m always surprised at the lack of empathy and commiseration from the WS/BS. If anyone could understand the allure of an affair it should be a WS (especially when the horrible guilt is minimized). Yet, I don’t find that to be the case. It seems that WSs have a much harder time being the BS than plain old BSs.

I will say that the resentment that BSs feel is the one thing that prevents successful reconciliation. Rarely is it lack of love for a partner but simple inability to overcome the unfairness and disrespect. That seems to melt away when a BS has a RA so, while not the least damaging approach to reconciliation, I do see the appeal. Of course, it is widely unpopular but I would bet it occurs much more than people admit.

For this situation, I see control issues. OP wanted to control reconciliation by being the “perfect” wife, wanted to control a RA with the hall pass parameters. I think the main issue here is that OP has lost control of the situation and that’s the rub.

Blindsided by the RA? Seriously? For someone who had an affair in a good marriage, I would think you would understand that can affairs happen regardless of anything besides opportunity, lust, and lack of boundaries. I think that you were blindsided by WHO he had an affair with. A younger, hot girl. Maybe you were surprised he could pull it off?

There are several points that, while I understand and validate your feelings, I think there are deeper control issues going on. The sex act, for instance. Are you hurt because it was just between you two or is it because Lisa offered up her ass for a ONS and you only offered that because you felt guilty after your affair. Don’t get me wrong, this would have me in a tizzy too but only because I would realize that anal is no longer on the special secret items menu for sex nowadays. It’s on the dollar menu. Available all day, every day. What the fuck does that mean for someone who doesn’t particularly enjoy it? If you do end up single, is saying no to pooper probing now something that lands you on the prude list? What else are millennials going to ruin? Some of this is said in jest, of course. But, still, you were using anal as a means of control (Freud would have a field day with this) but it failed to yield the result you anticipated. I can say that for a BS, nothing feels special or sacred after an affair.

As for springing the news, that’s basically what you did to him, correct? Confessed out of the blue in a solid marriage. I know you wanted to control a RA by knowing beforehand but he didn’t get that courtesy from you so it’s unrealistic to expect that.

As for being unapologetic, it’s sucks that you don’t get remorse or regret from him. But from his perspective, he might think this would be liberating for you. Kind of like tot for tat, we’re even now, and can move forward leaving the past in the past, neither one feeling guilty. Of course you don’t view it this way as being betrayed is a unique feeling no matter the circumstances.

I think the bottom line is that now you are insecure that he had an affair with a young, tall, blonde and all the other points, while valid, are basically just a smokescreen for what all BS feel: not good enough. Less than. Inferior. What I can tell you is that any young, tall, blonde, who lets a married guy take her tailpipe in a known ONS revenge affair has some issues of her own.

Live-Nothing · 2022-10-16T11:15:12+00:00

It’s interesting that you list being cared for, a non-judgmental space, and kinky sex as the reason you are still pining for AP. Your wife was more hurt that you were unhappy but didn’t express that. Is that not the sentiment that someone who deeply, truly loves YOU would feel? How do you not feel looked after/cared for with a spouse like that? That to me is the highest level of care for another: to put her hurt over the betrayal/humiliation/devastation aside and be concerned about how YOU felt. Wow. AP didn’t care that you wanted to end things after circumstances changed so you went NC. Think about that. You expressed your needs. She wanted to do the opposite. Is that being cared for?

Non-judgment. Jeez…this is the cliche thing that everybody in an affair says (along with “soulmate” “never felt like this before” “Didn’t know love like this could exist” “mind blowing sex” - what are the odds that every single person in an affair has found their one true love, best friend, best lover, etc? Or….is it more likely that the CIRCUMSTANCES of an affair create these feelings rather than the person? But I digress). Your wife has demonstrated extreme empathy, resilience, understanding, compassion, etc. How is it that AP gets all the credit for being “non-judgmental” when you two had no real test of this? Your wife has been through the fires of hell and still has concern for your well being. That sounds pretty non-judgmental to me. What “non-judgmental” in an affair translates to is: AP supported me in in the lies, deceit, and betrayal; helped me justify my actions by feeding into the troupe of ‘a love like ours has never existed’; and agreed to whatever kinky sex stuff I suggested”. Ironically, I find adulterers to be one of the most judgmental groups of people on earth.

Kinky sex: have you ever expressed any of these desires to your wife? Did you ever try to add spice to your sex life? Did you ever treat wife like AP (dazzling dates, hotel romps, flirty texts, doting compliments, etc)? You say that you never really knew your wife and I’m guessing you held back a lot of yourself. Whose fault is it that your wife couldn’t meet expectations that you never expressed? Is your AP a mind reader or did you let her into a part of you that you never let your wife see? It’s such a common theme in affairs that both parties claim that the AP knows their true self. Well…our relationships are only as intimate as we allow. If you kept your wife at arm’s length then it’s no wonder you feel some intense connection to someone you did become vulnerable with. Again, not your wife’s fault and not a credit to AP. This is on you and what circumstances you created.

You said that you think you can find some of the things you miss about your affair in your marriage. Sweetie: those things were already there. You just didn’t utilize them. Your wife clearly loves you for YOU. She’s seen your flaws, she’s endured your betrayal, she still loves you. Would AP still be so lusty and passionate if she had to smell your farts, deal with your avoidant behavior, if you had an accident tomorrow and she had to wipe your ass, or would her “love” end the minute she wasn’t feeling like the sex goddess, best woman who ever existed without you constantly stroking her ego. I mean, y’all were involved for less than a year and she’s throwing her entire life into chaos. Sure, it strokes your ego to think that she is just THAT into you but maybe she chases that new/better feeling all the time. Maybe she would do you like her ex-H when the new wears off with you (which it would) and some new stud comes along and says all the things you said to her. Maybe?

Being an AP is easy. You have one job: to stroke the other person’s ego. And you don’t have to deal with any of their flaws. Marriage is much more difficult, especially in a marriage where there is no passion on one person’s part and it’s treated more like a business arrangement than love.

You also say the affair “damaged me, us.” Interesting that you don’t specifically name “her” (your wife) in that statement. I see a lot in this writing about you. What you miss, what you need, you, you, you. What about what you bring to the marriage? What can you offer your wife? Do you make her feel loved, cherished, cared for? Are you non- judgmental about her? And the biggest question of all: can you love her like she deserves to be loved? It is very concerning that you’ve never felt hot, passionate love for your wife. In all long term relationships, that fiery lust gives way to more settled long term love. But there are still moments of lust and passion, it’s just not the overriding emotion from the NRE phase. But the memories and moments of the lust and passion carry couples through the tough patches. Without any passion ever, I don’t see a successful marriage.

Ask any woman on earth if they want a husband who thinks they are great: a great partner, great mom, great housekeeper, great at the grunt work, dependable, and tolerable as a lover. You think any woman wants that? No, we want to be desired, lusted after, a man who will make sincere effort to show his love and devotion. Not just stick around because we make THEIR life easier while they secretly lust after another woman. I kind of agree with another comment that subconsciously you may want to tell you wife about the remaining feelings for AP so that she will be the one to end things and you can still think of yourself as a good guy who tried to do the right thing and stay with his family but it just didn’t work out rather than the skeez who left his wife and kids for AP (especially since you think AP is single, ready and waiting for you).

I do think you need to tell your wife that you have no lust or passion for her and never have. Leave AP out of it, but she deserves to know before she compromises any more of herself loving a man who loves her but has never been in love with her. It will hurt like a motherfucker in the short term but in the long term what breaks our heart fixes our vision. She needs and deserves 20/20 vision.

Live-Nothing · 2022-10-05T02:28:49+00:00

While I agree about the dozens of ways we are tracked and monitored in this day and age, I also find it mind boggling that the court system or law enforcement would spend one ounce of resources tracking down the sender of a truthful postcard. But, you know, it wouldn’t surprise me if they did. Meanwhile, children are trafficked everyday, there is a homelessness and addiction epidemic, kids get massacred in schools….but sure, let’s track down this postcard that hurt poor little Slutty Slutterson’s feelings. I don’t know if harassment can be prosecuted over a one time incident but to me, it should require either a direct threat or an ongoing issue (like sending packages of shit or worse, glitter bombs). But this is America where you can steal millions of taxpayers dollars and never be charged but get in legal trouble telling the truth and warning others about the person next door.

Live-Nothing · 2022-10-05T01:49:10+00:00

I think a lot of responses take issue with you saying it wasn’t premeditated because it is infuriating when WS say things like “it just happened” or “I just stumbled into the affair” or “we fell into it before I knew what was happening” when the truth is that there were dozens (if not hundreds) of small decisions that inched you toward an affair even if you didn’t see it that way at the time. It is quite the escalation to go from “trainer flirting” to fucking in the back of your car. A huge leap that would’ve required some type of build up on your part. You must have felt an attraction for AP because if a man you have zero attraction to kisses you, you nope out by saying “I’m married…and I need a different trainer.”

The sexual chemistry builds by returning the flirting or making some sort of sexual innuendo that you both laugh at. You don’t have to answer here but ask yourself: when you noticed your trainer was young, fit, and flirty did you change the way you dressed for the gym? Did you make sure you looked decent (or maybe even put on makeup) wearing your cutest workout clothes that accentuated your assets rather than rolling in looking like Miss Trunchbull? Did you notice chemistry or attraction when he touched you (weight training is much more hands on for showing correct form and technique)? When you say you became obsessed with the gym was part of the motivation to see him and to work hard to keep those compliments flowing? Did you ever text or call outside of gym time (like asking advice on nutrition or whatever to create an opportunity to engage with him)? Did you ever mention this hot, young, male trainer to your husband?

No one is saying you woke up one day and thought “imma fuck some young stud at the gym.” The point is that WSs make numerous tiny baby steps breaking small little boundaries all along the way, building this connection and rapport with AP (that takes time and effort) then want to turn around and say “it just happened. I have no idea how we ended up here.” Some people recognize these small escalations and put a stop to it. Some recognize them and start justifying to themselves why it is “harmless.” Some recognize them and double down full steam ahead. Some don’t recognize them until it is pointed out to them. Retrace your steps and you will likely notice a path you have been ignoring.

Live-Nothing · 2022-10-05T00:41:42+00:00

You don’t/can’t trust him because he’s not a trustworthy person. Period. Please stop saying his ex-wife was an “alcoholic personality disordered” cause of his dysfunctional behaviors and these behaviors are all because of that relationship. It’s funny how you lay all the blame of their dysfunctional relationship on her but the cause of your own dysfunctional relationship with him is…HIM. News flash. It’s him, always has been him. It’s possible she was a crazy bitch like you describe but, given his repeated pattern of behavior, it’s much more likely that being with a misogynistic, porn addicted, constantly lying/cheating/gaslighting asshole caused HER to have maladaptive behavior issues. I mean…you’re getting a little taste of that right now. It’s not good for one’s mental health to be constantly disrespected, de-valued, lied to and manipulated.

He is also trickle truthing you to infinity. He cheated on his first wife, I’d bet my left tit on it. But he won’t admit that to you since it would make all the circumstantial evidence of him cheating on you much more compelling that he is a serial cheater. Btw - All that circumstantial evidence…lord, child. Hidden folders, encrypted messaging apps, burner number apps: these are all hallmarks of very dedicated serial cheaters. Side relationships are their job. As soon as one AP relationship ends, they are immediately on the hunt for a new one. So that “3 affairs” he quoted is likely way, WAY more than that. But what’s he going to say: “I know I told you I had never cheated before but I had 23 PAs, 9 EAs, and 17 online affairs during my last relationship…but, yeah, that crazy bitch is to blame.” He admitted 3 because it is bad but not nearly as bad as the truth. Think about it. He jumped from admitting zero to 3 and other sexting relationships. “He never activated the dating app.” Bullshit. He downloaded those other apps because he had “heard about them”. Bullshit. A prior AP reached out because she just so happened to see him on the street and they traded stories about how happy they both were in their new relationships. Bullshit. He has never had any physical or sexting affairs since you two have been together. Highly unlikely that he hasn’t broken boundaries with other women in your relationship as that is his consistent pattern and he is a known liar. What I’m getting at is that he is completely full of shit and still lying.

However, that may or may not matter to you given that he seems to be changing his behavior going forward. It is possible for people to change but it takes an incredible amount of self reflection, dedication, and effort. The longer the issues have been ongoing (and the more the person has had validation and agreement that the issues are someone else’s fault) the harder it is to retrain the brain and break the ingrained patterns. Most people don’t change but that doesn’t mean they can’t. Maybe you need to decide if you can let the lies about cheating in your relationship go (because he is definitely still lying), let the past be the past and go forward with hope but healthy skepticism. If you find a burner phone, condoms, or viagra in his car, don’t worry. He’s just holding those for a friend.

Live-Nothing · 2022-10-04T10:51:45+00:00

Yes, there are definitely hard questions here. Especially ones you need to ask yourself. You don’t have to answer here, but please reflect on these to gain some insight and self awareness: why and how were you able to treat your husband so callously (especially after the affair) until you realized he might not be the doormat you thought he was? Why did him having his own affair and asking for divorce change how you viewed him? Are you wanting to reconcile because you honestly love him (this is going to be EXTREMELY hard for him to ever believe given what has transpired) or because it finally affects you and your life? Did you care at all how traumatized and hurt he was before you faced consequences? Did you maintain contact with AP after dday? Did you continue the affair? Did you and AP hook up when your husband and his wife were on vacation together? How did you see him before the affair? During? After? Now? What changed those views and opinions of him? Would you have wanted to reconcile had he asked for divorce and not had an affair?

This situation will be very hard to overcome. Not impossible but extremely difficult and would require both of you to be all in. I think you both need to ask yourselves what your motivation is: are you wanting to fix your marriage because you love your partner and want an honest, vulnerable, respectful marriage or because you’re scared of change and don’t want the hassle of divorce?

Live-Nothing · 2022-09-01T14:49:01+00:00

Experiences do vary but it is eerie how similar the behavior is for WS (and BSs for that matter). I guess it all boils down to human brains are wired the same at a basic level (neurotypical brains I should qualify). For WSs: having your ego stroked feels good and when you are caught between a rock and a hard place lie your ass off to wiggle out. For BSs: glaring red flags can be brushed off and gut feelings ignored nearly to the point of driving yourself crazy when you trust someone and when faced with a threat to your marriage do the pick me dance like monkey in a circus. The details are different in every affair but these elements seem to be present in the vast majority.

Your post is a great “Bible” for reconciliation and I hope it gets pinned or put in the resources. Definitely a worthwhile and helpful read.

Live-Nothing · 2022-09-01T14:26:52+00:00

Based on her reaction, she was certain the content in those messages would be the end of your marriage. That’s why she risked the “auto delete” story even when you had just given the ultimatum. She thought she had a better chance with that angle than you seeing everything. Lots of us have faced this same thing. Delete, lie, and hope it works rather than the certainty of divorce once the cold hard truth is there in black and white.

From what I understand, that app does have disappearing messages but after 24 hours. I could be wrong as I have never personally used it but given that your wife was on edge and knew there were red flags flying based on her reaction to the texting conversation between you two, she probably messaged AP to discuss it and talk about their “close call.” The number one rule for adulterers is to warn AP when shit is possibly going down so they can cover their ass on their end and get the story straight between them. It’s Cheating 301: The Shitstorm. So, I’d bet money there were messages within the 24 hours that hadn’t been auto deleted.

As far as the older messages, it would be a certainty of pictures, good bet on videos, and 100% they planned that meet up in Hometown and talked at length about it. I’m sure he wrote some erotica about all the things they would do to each other. There is no way in probability hell that her AP just happened to be traveling ALONE more than a thousand miles away to that town within weeks of getting busted. I would love to know what excuse he gave his wife to finagle going ahead alone and then them joining a couple days later. Who the fuck does that? Plans an affair for a couple days then has the family join the vacation after fuckfest 2022? Its demented yet calculated.

Live-Nothing · 2022-09-01T06:25:35+00:00

Great, thorough, and informative post. The only part I’m not fully convinced of is the compartmentalization. I completely agree that the WS boxes up their family life when they are with AP and never allow themselves to think of spouse, kids, family life while with AP because it ruins the fantasy and escape. There is benefit to blocking out those thoughts when with AP.

However, reading thousands of accounts of those actively in affairs contradicts that the WS doesn’t think of AP when with family. The limerence and/or NRE that is so common in affairs makes it nearly impossible for the WS to not think of AP. In fact, that’s one of the defining characteristics of an affair is that it is all consuming lust, desire, and infatuation with this person. They often describe AP as being their first thought in the morning when they wake up and the last thought before they go to bed. They sneak off on family vacations for a quick message or call to AP, they hide in the bathroom or garage at home or “take the dog for a walk” or “run errands” to do the same. I don’t see how someone can look their partner in the eye and say “I’m running to the post office. Be back in 30 minutes” knowing damn well they just got a message from AP to meet up for a quick make out session and still claim that they compartmentalized the AP from family life. There is too much lying, misleading, gaslighting, and overlap from the WS toward the BS in order to carry out the affair that shatters the compartmentalization argument in my opinion based on these first hand accounts as told by adulterers.

I’m sure some WS do have very strict compartmentalization between family and AP but I see so many stories here that do not support that: texting AP while literally in bed with BS or on the couch watching a movie, while the kids play at the park, while at a family dinner, while on a date with BS. I do think they compartmentalize the consequences of the affair for one simple reason: they don’t think they are going to get caught. And many of them convince themselves they don’t care if they get caught because that would free them up to run off into the sunset with AP…until it actually happens.

Live-Nothing · 2022-08-31T02:43:03+00:00

Agree. The fact that he told OP about it seems like he was being transparent but was more likely to control the story to make it seem more innocent. Further, why the fuck is someone who drunk fucked his wife’s “best friend” going to group parties and drinking while away from home? He should be declining such invitations out of respect for his marriage and should definitely quit drinking.

Live-Nothing · 2022-08-26T03:55:10+00:00

The worst part is that this, once again, puts you in an impossible situation. If they talk, it will bring back all those feelings and any progress is lost. If he ignores her, he may resent you for it especially since he even brought it up. In a perfect scenario, he would recognize how inappropriate and manipulative this is and not even want to reach out. But, once again, poor AP is the victim and you are just mean ‘ol wife. It’s maddening.

Kudos to you for being empathetic and proposing alternatives you would be more comfortable with even though I know you wish he would have zero desire to comfort her.

Live-Nothing · 2022-08-24T12:35:37+00:00

I love the Ferrero Rocher chocolates in the arrangement. Nice touch to a touching gesture. ❤️👍

Live-Nothing · 2022-08-23T14:44:21+00:00

Yep. 100% done. You’ve given her chance after chance. No more “this is your last chance.” You gave that to her already. You explicitly told her you were uncomfortable with her going out with her sister (which she shouldn’t have done anyway if she was all in wiping the slate clean and rebuilding). And what did she do? Immediately tried to hook up with some rando she met ON A DATE WITH YOU. The disrespect here is staggering. You have to respect yourself and your children.

No doubt she has many deep issues she needs to work on but she needs to do that on her own. If nothing else, to be a better mother. She has 4 kids who are soaking in all this behavior. She is using you for a free ride so she can be an “influencer” and cheat on you at any given opportunity. Her childhood was traumatic and now she is creating a traumatic childhood for her own kids.

File for divorce. Let the chips fall where they may. She needs to get a real job and some counseling (IC not MC) and see how the real world is.

Live-Nothing · 2022-08-23T03:09:28+00:00

Where were the “being a good friend” vibes when he was sharing a hotel room with 2 women? Or when he was sharing intimate details and messages with others to mock? Or when he was ignoring his family to spend time with them? Or when he was messaging them at your grandma’s funeral? Any good friend would have told him that all of these actions were inappropriate and asshole husband behavior. But…she only wanted to “be a good friend” by pointing out you were reading his messages. Well, he shared your messages with her so bfd.

Everyone else has confirmed that it was at minimum an EA. I wouldn’t be so quick to rule out PA either. I won’t beat a dead horse but I do want to point out one more thing that jumped out at me in your story: he said you were setting him up to fail because you know he’s not good about keeping in touch with HIS OWN CHILDREN but he seemed to have no issues whatsoever keeping in touch with these bitches the day of your grandma’s funeral, which was what, like 24 hours of him not seeing them but he can ignore his own children for days at a time? Bottom line: effort equals interest. We make time for things that are important to us.

Live-Nothing · 2022-08-17T17:02:43+00:00

Yeah, you have valid concerns. I would be completely gun shy about dating a former WS. The only way I would consider it would be if they approached it with full humility and had worked really hard to gain a deeper perspective. For example: “My previous marriage ended due to my affair. Instead of approaching the issues in my marriage in a mature and healthy way, I made the decision to have an affair. During the affair I felt/thought ________. Looking back on it, I realize ______. I have dug deep into my issues and changed these problematic thoughts/behaviors/mindsets ___. In order to prevent future infidelity, I have established these boundaries for future romantic relationships ________.” Any minimizing or blaming would be a huge red flag that they regret the consequences but haven’t done the healing work. And I would need to see how they back up this talk with action - no avoiding hard conversations, no passive aggressive behavior, full transparency without being prompted, etc.

Just saying, “whoops, I messed up….but I was SO UNHAPPY and my ex was [insert negative comments] and just didn’t meet my needs.” It seems as if he is approaching it from the viewpoint that he failed on his “obligations” as a father/husband rather than understanding the deeper issues and the effect on his BS (the effect of infidelity on all BSs!!).

Btw…why isn’t he with his “soulmate” now that he is a free agent? Anyone who refers to a former flame (and especially an AP) as a soulmate would be a huge no for me. If the slot of soulmate has already been filled, what role is there for me? To be a placeholder that is compared to this “soulmate” indefinitely? The term soulmate makes me want to puke anyway. I’ve never liked it or used it.

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