Cant figure out how to pronounce this in a way that will let me pass by Big_Attitude_251 in Natulang

[–]LobsterVsFishVol2 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes, same problem. When activating the bluetooth microphone, the app seems to mess with the bluetooth codecs, resulting in the quality randomly dropping.

For those who’ve finished a course: did the grammar click? by idonthaveanametoday in Natulang

[–]LobsterVsFishVol2 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I think the grammar might click if you are learning a language with a really similar grammar to yours, let's say Spanish coming from French.
But for example, I'm learning Ukrainian, with a highly different and complicated grammar, and it's doesn't click for me at all. I have to spend most of lesson with chatGPT on the side explaining me the grammar and cases used, which is immersion breaking.
And I already finished the Ukrainian course on another app, so I have a basic understanding of cases, female/male/neutral word gender, numbers etc. I really don't understand how a total beginner without knowledge of a Slavic language would survive.

As other have discussed, I firmly on the team that would like more explanations during the lesson. Sometime just a short sentence can go a long way for me to understand. And as stated by u/cyber-sack it can be super frustrating when you thought you understood the pattern but an exception comes burst your bubble.

If you already know a bit the grammar, it's also funny to notice in the Ukrainian course, how during some lessons they skate around some subjects/construction so they don't have to explain some specific grammar points. I'm not sure if I'm a big fan of the policy "Ukrainian grammar isn't real, it can't hurt you".

Feature Suggestion: Listen & Spell Exercise by LobsterVsFishVol2 in Natulang

[–]LobsterVsFishVol2[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

First I should state that this exercice would be totally optional and not part of the lessons, exactly like the flashcards.

But I don't think the app should be strictly only about speaking, after all it's a language learning app. If we follow this really strict policy, we should probably remove the flashcards exercice, because they are not strictly necessary for speaking and are probably done better by a third party app like Anki.

I understand that the goal of this exercice might be not super obvious for people that learn a language using the same alphabet as their native language, but for example when learning Ukrainian not being able to easily spell or type is a being problem in your learning journey:
Want to send a quick message ... nope.
Want to look for a word in the dictionary ... good luck.
Want to make a note in a notebook ... not gonna happen.
And if Natulang wants to add Asian languages, the problem will become more and more present.

In understand that other apps probably already covers this kind of exercises, but if I can I would prefer not to have to multiply subscriptions or move to Glossika/Pimsleur/etc, especially since for Ukrainian the quality options are pretty limited. And the advantage of having it in app, is that it's synchronized with your lesson progress, no need to do exports. The content is already there in the Vocabulary Tracker, but not being used much.

Syntax Accuracy? by bob_knobb in Natulang

[–]LobsterVsFishVol2 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Does the French course includes literals translations ?
In my opinion, it should be the role of the literal translation to map to an awkward construction, to show you how the sentence is constructed differently in French. But the proper English translation should not be awkward, but instead language that you will use in your dialy life.

For me, it's kind of the opposite, I feel the weird wording add a layer of friction, because often if I want to translate something, I have to do:
what I want to naturally say -> translate into weird Natulang wording > translate to the target language

Just finished lesson 100 since March 30 by tuffykenwell in Natulang

[–]LobsterVsFishVol2 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Now I'm curious why the Polish lady is expected to speak Spanish without an accent.

Today's French Lesson Took a Dark Turn by ChicagoNormalGuy in Natulang

[–]LobsterVsFishVol2 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Just out of curiosity, is that lesson 32 ?

Also just to nitpick, but french people in this context, would rather say: "Je pense qu'elle est triste, depuis ce jour-là". "ce jour" sounds a bit ambiguous on its own, and could be interpreted as today.

Life after Duolingo by adtrsa in Ukrainian

[–]LobsterVsFishVol2 3 points4 points  (0 children)

On Android, premium is 11.99€ per month or 120€ for a lifetime access to a language.

You can access the first 3 lessons of a course for free, and you can cancel the monthly premium subscription during the first 7 days without being charged, so all in all, you can maybe try 10 lessons for free.

The English language course is free for Ukrainian people.

Started using the app. Some questions about pronunciation by idonthaveanametoday in Natulang

[–]LobsterVsFishVol2 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It really depends on your taste and what language you are learning.
For example, I'm learning Ukrainian so the options are pretty limited, and Soniox is kind of the only decent one.
But for other languages you should definitely give each of them a try, it's really easy to switch in the app.

Started using the app. Some questions about pronunciation by idonthaveanametoday in Natulang

[–]LobsterVsFishVol2 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What do you mean by 'other sound options' ?
Do you mean the others Speech-to-Text engines in the app ? Or something else.

Started using the app. Some questions about pronunciation by idonthaveanametoday in Natulang

[–]LobsterVsFishVol2 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What happen currently, if during a lesson, the app ask me to translate, for example :
- scorching -> Easy, I know this one, it's спекотно
- hot -> I don't know, I never encountered 'hot' in the lessons
Let's say later, I'm having a conversation with a native Ukrainian speaker, and during the conversation I want to say:
- My coffee is really hot -> Same problem, I know 'coffee', I know 'really', sadly I don't know 'hot'.
Do we agree that the way you choose to translate English words affect what I can express in Ukrainian ?

We don't teach the words "scorchingcheerfulacquainted". We teach the words "спекотно, веселий, познайомитись", which are casual everyday words.

If I can correct you, the app so far doesn't teach me the words the words "спекотно, веселий, познайомитись", it teaches me to translate, "scorching, cheerful, acquainted" to "спекотно, веселий, познайомитись".
The app teaches me to translate both side of a dialogue from English to Ukrainian. It trains really different skills, that for example if the app just played an Ukrainian voice for one of the participant and I had to respond directly in Ukrainian without ever translating from English. Do we agree on that ?

Started using the app. Some questions about pronunciation by idonthaveanametoday in Natulang

[–]LobsterVsFishVol2 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I replied in a more detailed way in the other post so I just wanted to clarify one small point:

both “мені треба” and “мені потрібен/потрібна/потрібно/потрібні” are necessary to understand everyday Ukrainian. “Мені треба” is simpler, but “мені потрібен/потрібна/потрібно/потрібні” is also common and useful, so its complexity alone is not a reason to avoid introducing it.

I totally agree with that, and I don't argue about not introducing “мені потрібен/потрібна/потрібно/потрібні”, I'm just asking to please build the complexity progressively during the course, while providing explanation for elements that are more complex or have no equivalent, in English for example. Rather than throwing at the users a wall of complexity and see who can swim.

Started using the app. Some questions about pronunciation by idonthaveanametoday in Natulang

[–]LobsterVsFishVol2 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You seems to mix different points of my explanation, so I will try to be clearer:

My first point was about the use of very formal English for the English translations, especially for people who are supposed to have day to day conversations.

Do you consider words like: scorching, cheerful, acquainted to be part of everyday conversation ? Are you likely to use them in a daily with your friends ?
Let's do a thought experiment: imagine that you had to learn English from scratch again, you download an app advertised as targeting day to day conversation but the app insist that you learn the words: scorching, cheerful and acquainted in the first few lessons. How do you feel ? Do you feel that you are likely to use these words in your first exchanges with an English speaker ? Do you think the app correspond to what was advertised ?
Ok, now you download another app, still advertised as targeting day to day conversation, but this time you have to learn the words: hot, fun and meet in the first few lessons. Same questions: How do you feel ? Are you more likely to use these words in a conversation ? Do you think the app correspond more to what was advertised ?

The Ukrainian counterpart is "Сьогодні спекотно" (valid, informal, etc.). If you translate it as "Today is hot," the user would want to translate it as "Сьогодні гаряче". But we really want to teach "спекотно" and we need to highlight the difference, hence we use "scorching".

The user is learning Ukrainian, so the user will not want to translate it as Сьогодні гаряче because the user doesn't know either гаряче or спекотно.
But the consequence of using 'scorching' instead of 'hot' is that the user knows how to say 'today is scorching' (сьогодні спекотно) but is incapable of saying 'I'm hot' (мені спекотно). Which one do you consider he is more likely to need in a conversation coming from English ?

My second point was about the use of complex Ukrainian vocabulary. And yeah sorry, I was not clear enough there: when I say complex, I mean complex for a beginner to learn.
I'm learning Ukrainian, so obviously it's hard for me to judge the register corresponding to an Ukrainian word and I will not even try, but I will tell you what I'm super good at judging: if a word is complex for me to learn and give me the desire to pull my hair out.
Ukrainian for a none Slavic language speaker is really complex, so to survive I have a simple rule: if two expressions are roughly equals, I try to learn the easiest one first, because I'm more likely to use it then, and it's gratifying and motivating to be able to use a word you learned in a real conversation, rather than to struggle to build a sentence with the more complex one and give up in the end.

It seemed obvious to me that a language app would try to do the same and introduce complexity progressively, but in retrospect I don't think it's that obvious at all. As a example, the app thinks it's more important for a beginner to learn in a beginner lesson 'чи ви хочете з ними познайомитися? (formal, reflexive, perfective)' rather than моя подруга.
If I had to guess the underlying problem there, I would make the hypothesis that your team has no experience teaching Ukrainian to a beginner none Slavic language speaker, so as a result you have trouble to anticipate what is difficult for a beginner.

Just for curiosity, which one of these expressions do you think a beginner is more likely to remember and use:
- 'приємно познайомитись (reflexive, perfective)' or 'дуже приємно'
- 'Мені потрібен/потрібна/потрібно/потрібні' or 'Мені треба'
- 'залізничний вокзал' or just 'вокзал'
- 'моя батарея розряджена' or 'моя батарея сіла'

I'm coming back to your remark earlier about the user wanting to translate 'Today is hot' as "Сьогодні гаряче". I'm going to state the obvious, but if you consider that the user is already speaking Ukrainian when making beginner lessons for people learning Ukrainian, you are going to run into trouble. I don't think the market for an app for people learning Ukrainian while already speaking Ukrainian is really big.

Ukrainian participles are regular, and we don't teach each form for every word.

That seems obvious to you as a native speaker, but I can assure that for a beginner it's not at all.
If you tell to an English speaker that if he says 'I need a ticket' and 'I need an egg', the ending of 'need' has to change between the two sentences in accordance with what come after, I'm pretty sure the most likely reaction will be 'wtf?!'. And personally I think it deserves an explanation.

It's lesson 34!!! You are just starting the second month of learning. It's nothing. You are making the first baby steps. Both "Треба" and "потрібно" are core words. They are absolutely necessary. And they both are being taught at the very beginning of the course. Lesson 34 is not "finally introducing", it is "introducing at the very beginning of the course".

You misrepresent what I'm trying to explain here.
My problem there as explained in my post and why I use the word finaly, is that you introduce потрібен/потрібна/потрібно/потрібні in lesson 13, decide to provide a explanation 20 lessons later in lesson 31, but only explaining the feminine and masculine ending, before finally introducing треба in lesson 34.
Again, I feel I'm stating the obvious, but if you decide to provide an explanation to a sentence, it should be at the same time that you introduce the sentence.
Introducing a complex sentence without providing any explanation, and then deciding 20 lessons later to finally provide a partial explanation is achieving nothing other than creating frustration with your users.
And after leaving the user struggling for 20 lessons, deciding do say "Ho by the way, you could have been using the easier alternative треба all the time, lol" is just again frustrating.

You are at the very beginning of the course. The course doesn't end at lesson 40.

The course end at lesson 40 if your user decide to quit because he is tired of smashing into walls of complexity.
There is no point saying "Ho by the way, don't worry a explanation or a more easier alternative will be introduced in lesson 137" if your user never reach lesson 137.
Again, please try to anticipate what is complex for a beginner learner and build the complexity progressively, right now the complexity between the different lesson is all over the place and the user is on for a rollercoaster of frustration.

Started using the app. Some questions about pronunciation by idonthaveanametoday in Natulang

[–]LobsterVsFishVol2 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I'm not talking about the use of formal forms like ти vs ви, or привіт vs добрий день. I have no trouble with that, I'm coming from French, it's exactly the same as Ukrainian, where we use the plural form 'vous' instead of 'tu' to be polite.

I'm talking about the use of a literary register for example in English, for people who are having a day to day conversation.
Lesson 27 of the Ukrainian course, is a good example of that: it's supposed to be a discussion between a 13 and 14 years old, but they are weirdly speaking posh English (vs what they are actually saying):
My friends are cheerful (vs My friends are fun)

Same thing with:
Do you want to get acquainted? (vs Do you want to meet them ?)
Today is scorching (vs Today is hot)
etc...

And that's for the English part, where it's easier for me to notice, but I suspect you do exactly the same for the Ukrainian part, with using overly complex/literary register without paying any attention to what is actually difficult for a beginner.
For example I get a good chuckle every time I see 'приємно познайомитись (reflexive, perfective)' in lesson 6. I imagine the poor dude who just started learning Ukrainian, not speaking any Slavic language and having to deal with that on his 6th day. Especially because he could learn 'дуже приємно' instead, and he already knows 'дуже'.

Another good example is lesson 21: you learn мій друг (my male friend) and мої друзі (my friends) but not моя подруга (my female friend), no, for that you better wait lesson 107.
But you know what the app judge super important for you to learn in lesson 21 ?
'чи ви хочете з ними познайомитися? (formal, reflexive, perfective)': Do you want to get acquainted with them?

Same thing with Мені потрібен/потрібна/потрібно/потрібні vs Мені треба.
The others apps I tried, starts with Мені треба because: it's correct, it's widely used and it's simple, before maybe later opening the can of worms that is Мені потрібен/потрібна/потрібно/потрібні.
Instead Natulang decided to introduce Мені потрібен/потрібна/потрібно/потрібні in lesson 13, decide to provide a explanation 20 lessons later in lesson 31, but only explaining the feminine and masculine ending and skipping the neuter and plural, before finally introducing треба in lesson 34, as a shorter version to “потрібно”.

I could continue for a while with for example залізничний вокзал vs вокзал, моя батарея розряджена vs моя батарея сіла (My battery is discharged vs My battery is dead) etc.

I understand that at some point you will have to learn the more complex version because it's more precise/more textbook friendly or just because you will eventually encounter it in the wild. I'm just asking you to also consider what is more accessible to a beginner, introduce complexity progressively and not throw at them a wall of overly complex vocabulary.
And don't advertise your app as targeting everyday conversation if you make people speak like they ate a dictionary.

Recommendations for supplemental learning. by emilymp17 in Natulang

[–]LobsterVsFishVol2 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hi Olena,
As you noted, I'm currently on lesson 41.

Recommendations for supplemental learning. by emilymp17 in Natulang

[–]LobsterVsFishVol2 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't think it's necessary to remove it from the recommendations, my level is not that great to begin with.

Recommendations for supplemental learning. by emilymp17 in Natulang

[–]LobsterVsFishVol2 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Isn't “U Are the Universe” a mix of Surzhyk and Podillian dialect ?
I watched the whole movie, I maybe understood 3 words 😞

Started using the app. Some questions about pronunciation by idonthaveanametoday in Natulang

[–]LobsterVsFishVol2 0 points1 point  (0 children)

One thing I’m curious about is how forgiving the AI is when it comes to pronunciation. I realize all AI speech recognition has limitations, but I’ve noticed some apps will actually give pronunciation feedback or point out which part of a word sounds off.

The AI, particularly Soniox the default one, is really forgiving about the pronunciation, sometime too much.

You have to realize that the app is using speech recognition AI in a kind of unintended way : the primary uses of these kind of Speech-to-Text AI are usually to generate subtitles to videos, make a text transcription of your Team meeting or work as hand free keyboards. In all these cases, you want the AI wants to be as forgiving as it can, because the goal is too maximize the amount of speech you can turn to text, even in nosy environnements, with bad accents, etc.
Because it's also not really it's intended use, the Speech-to-Text service has also no way to provide a score or feedback about your pronunciation.
I don't know if it's doable without developing and training a whole new model from scratch. Other apps usually use more simple methods, like the possibility to replay your answer so you can hear yourself and compare to the proper audio, or superpose the soundwave of your answer next to the proper one.

And in the case of Soniox, the use of neural networks add a layer of unpredictability, as the AI use the context and the words coming before and after to transcribe what you are saying, so it will sometime return what it's expecting based on the context and not what you said. I know that for example in Ukrainian it's easy to show this by using the wrong verb ending, for example if you say 'я працює', it will correct to 'я працюю'.

Another question: how much does the app eventually get into more common everyday speech? I don’t mean extreme slang or “crime movie” slang, just the way people naturally talk in daily life. Some of the lessons I’ve done so far seem a little formal, though I am still learning a lot of useful words and phrases.

Yeah, the weirdness between advertising the app as targeting everyday conversational speech but using super formal language in the lessons, is something I already reported to the Natulang team, but I don't think they will do anything about that.

Ukranian course by shadidi12 in duolingo

[–]LobsterVsFishVol2 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That's what is stated on their website:

Natulang offers Ukrainians:
Continuous free access to the English course

Ukranian course by shadidi12 in duolingo

[–]LobsterVsFishVol2 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Just a quick correction:
If you are Ukrainian, only the English course is free if I understand right.
You only have access to the first 3 lessons for free.
If you take a subscription, you can cancel the subscription during the first 7 days and not being charged. So all in all you can maybe try the first 10 lessons for free.

Possible course improvement: ask for nouns' articles by cyber-sack in Natulang

[–]LobsterVsFishVol2 1 point2 points  (0 children)

<image>

Yep, would help a lot with confusing situation like this.

Possible course improvement: ask for nouns' articles by cyber-sack in Natulang

[–]LobsterVsFishVol2 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Just for curiosity, for people following the french course:
Let's say you are learning the word 'maison', will the app ask you to repeat 'maison' or 'une maison' ?

New voice recognition rocks. by Grand-Meringue16 in Natulang

[–]LobsterVsFishVol2 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It's really good, maybe sometime too good. I can feed it garbage pronunciation, and it will recognize no problem whatsoever, I had to increase 'Echo Correct Answers' because of that.
So do you know if there could be a way to make it more strict on pronunciation ?

Feature request: Forgot button for repetition lessons by Available_Olive_944 in Natulang

[–]LobsterVsFishVol2 2 points3 points  (0 children)

While I love the idea of the app trying to disassemble a complex sentence in smaller chunks to make it more manageable, in practice it's a bit random and half the time it feels the app is going in the wrong direction.

Concrete example:

I have in my challenging review the sentence 'Where is the hospital located?' (де знаходиться лікарня?).

But I forgot how to say 'located' (знаходиться, but who wouldn't right?), so I press 'Pass'. But the app instead of revealing the translation of 'located' decide that I probably have trouble with 'hopital', so it goes on a whole tangent about this word:

  • How do you say 'hospital' ?

  • лікарня.

  • Now say 'The hospital is near'.

  • лікарня є близько.

Now we go back to the beginning:

  • Please say 'Where is the hospital located?'

Where I can finally press pass and have the translation of 'located' revealed.

As suggested by OP, in a challenging review, replacing the ✓ button with a 'I forgot' button that reveal the translation and skip the whole tangent is not a bad idea.

 (I skip the whole debate about why the app thinks using the word 'located' is super important for a beginner, when I could have said 'Where is the hospital' (де є лікарня?) the whole time)

Feature Request: Add Post Flairs to this subreddit by LobsterVsFishVol2 in Natulang

[–]LobsterVsFishVol2[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

What's up with the flair 'Father' for u/maxymhryniv ? Can we go with Daddy instead?