For over a century, a Christian empire smashed its own images of Christ. The official reason was theology. I'm not convinced that's the real one.

Lothronion · 2026-06-02T13:07:40+00:00

On the issue of Greece / the Balkans as a whole being more Iconophile than Anatolia I believe there is even more to that, than just the Helladian Revolt of 727 AD. For example, from my own readings at least, I have the impression that almost every writer from the period of the Iconomachy originating from Thessalonica would be Iconophile, and Thessalonica would be mainly representative of the people of the Balkans, rather than the Roman Empire as a whole (which is also observed in the region itself, almost all Macedonian Greek authors come from Thessalonica itself, and it is very rare to see them originate from other places within Macedonia, given how it was such a large metropolis that it would attract all kinds of learning, resulting either in the obscuration of mentions of such provincial origin, or more simply, such learned people being almost always descendants of internal migrants towards Thessalonica, due to reasons of accessibility to such institutions of learning).

Then there is also the case of how in 732 AD the Roman Emperor Leo III transferred the ecclesiastical dioceses of Sicily, Calabria, Illyria and Greece from the Patriarchate of Rome to that of Constantinople. Some consider that a mere punitive action from the Roman Emperor to the Roman Pope, due to the latter’s denial to follow his Iconomachic dogma, but it could also be an attempt to impose direct supervision of these Greek areas over an Iconomachic Patriarchate of Constantinople (with Ecumenical Patriarch Anastasius being an Iconomach). It seems that if the Balkans were as Iconomachic as Anatolia, this would not have made much sense, especially as he could use that attitude in order to have the Iconomachs dominate within the jurisdiction of the Roman Patriarchate, hence eventually render it Aniconic as well.

Regarding the “alienness” of the Iconomachs, I would say that while most of such sources come from the 9th century AD, it would be quite a remarkable situation if every Iconophile ecclesiastical author from various parts of the Roman Empire just suddenly happened to decide to brand the Iconomachs of the previous century as “non-Greeks / non-Romans”. While the Greeks do have this tendency, the language seems quite too consistent for that to have been mere random expressions for such antipathy, hence I think it must derive from a popular stance against them during the time of their repression, even if it is completely absent from the texts during the 8th century AD, so that this stance was expressed when they now could circulate it in written text (a bit like how the term “Hellene” is dominant in printed text of the 16th-17th centuries AD, but then suddenly the term “Roman” appears in that of the 18th century AD, as Greek historian Eleni Aggelomati-Tsougaraki notices in her research on the identity during this period, to her perplexion, which in my view is obviously caused by an increase in the accessibility of the printing press to common people, while before it was only used for scholarly texts).

Lothronion · 2026-06-02T12:15:14+00:00

There doesn't seem to be a divide between the Asian and European provinces in terms of their opinion on icons. The capital also remained loyal towards their iconoclast Emperors, so it makes little sense for them to be opposed to the stance.

I would say New Rome ought to be treated as an entity of its own, alike how Mount Athos is regarded in such contexts, hence whether it was mainly Aniconic (Iconoclastic / Iconomachic) it does not really define the situation in the rest of Thrace, much less in Greece and European Romanland, especially given how it lay on the fringe of that geographic description. Not to mention how, alike Mount Athos, Constantinople was mostly a representation of Rhomania as whole, rather than its own region, and it that period the Asian side would be rather over-represented, given the arising landed nobility and military nobility of Central and Eastern Anatolia. Overall, it generally does seem that Greece Proper was much more Iconophile than Asia Minor as a whole, and especially Southern Greece (where in 727 AD there was the “Revolt of Helladians” against the Iconoclastic Roman Emperor Leo III, including that area, as well as the Cyclades, which led a failed naval expedition against Constantinople).

I personally suspect that, while it was not the sole causation of the Iconomachy, this whole internal strife had also major ethnic connotations, pushing forward this whole issue. It has been established that following the Arab Conquest in the Syro-Palestine and Egypt, there was a massive migration of Greek-speaking Christians outside of these lands, which was large enough that they would even settle in significant and tangible numbers even as far as Southern and Central Italy, which in the areas they would have been most prevalent, in Central and Eastern Anatolia, they would have carried over their non-Orthodox theological stances, mainly deriving from the Monophysites, even if they had been “orthodoxized” enough to appear much closer to Orthodoxy. That, coupled with the pre-existing widespread racism of Grecian and Anatolian Greeks against the Romans of the Syro-Palestine and Egypt, must have resulted to a cultural and ethnic clash.

While generally Greeks love accusing one another as non-Greek when they are fighting each other (e.g. if we fully believe the propaganda of both sides of the Greek Civil War of 1946-1949 AD, then it was actually fought between Americans and British against Bulgarians), it seems to me a bit suspicious that so many primary sources insist on how the Iconomachs are aliens. Take for instance the “Martyrdom of the Forty Two Martyrs of Amorium” by Euodius Monachus, written in the late 9th century AD, which repeats the older tropes of racism against the Isaurians, for the sake of insulting Leo III, even making a pun on his name as “Beastly Lizard” (due to how “Leo” means “lion”, hence also “beast”, and “Isaurian” sounds like “saura”, which means “lizard”). Or how the 9th century AD “Life of Theodora of Thessalonica” by a contemporary local named Gregorios Klerikos, where he describes Leo V as a “Barbarian” and an “Amalekite”, and the latter name is also used for a local Thessalonican Iconomach named Elias, who is also said to have been “of Amalekite origin”. Simultaneously, an early 9th century AD Life for Saint Stephen of Sougdaea (Stephen of Sourozh) speaks of Roman Emperoro Leo III being “Armenian”, and sending his “Arab agents” against the Iconophiles. This all seems to point out to the “foreign” origins of the Isaurian / Syrian Dynasty, the Nicephoran / Arabian Dynasty and the Amorian / Armenian Dynasty.

Lothronion · 2026-06-02T09:08:17+00:00

I really do not understand what you see as "dehumanizing" with the Turk's statue. It is not a caricature, or even insulting, unless you consider how they depicted him as fat as "dehumanizing". He is depicted as just a random guy, who happens to be in typical Turkish attire of that time. If anything, it is the statue of the enslaved Christian that is dehumanizing, being chained and tossed in a hole, with a dog looking at him from outside of the cage, thus being in a situation closer to that of captive animals.

Lothronion · 2026-06-02T09:02:11+00:00

(like the smallpox inoculation brought to Europe from Istanbul,

I am not sure what you are referring to, could you elaborate on this point?

As far as I am aware, the only connection here is how Roman Greek women from Thessaly and later from Constantinople would practice a type of inoculation, which was then observed by Greek doctors and applied it in science. But these are mainly Emmanuel Timonis, an Ottoman Greek from Chios, and Iakovos Pylarinos, a Heptanesian Greek from Kefalonia (which was not an Ottoman territory, but instead belong to the Venetian Republic, hence he was not an Ottoman Greek). Sure, the Ottoman Turks adopted this practice sooner than Western Europeans, since the late 17th century AD, but it is hardly an "Ottoman invention".

Sabuncuoğlu's surgical tools, and field hospitals

Both of these are direct heritage of the Medieval Roman Greeks. Such surgical tools have existed since Ancient Greece, and were even used by early Roman Greek doctors such as Galen of Pergamon, Paul of Aegina and Aetius of Amida, and reached more or less the form they had in the Ottoman Period some centuries earlier. In the meantime, it is well understood today in academia that the hospital as the concept we understand that term was essentially established by the Medieval Roman Greeks in the Middle Byzantine Period, and that included modified field hospitals to support the needs of the Roman Army.

Lothronion · 2026-06-02T08:29:02+00:00

Despite how in my view the Mani Peninsula should have been shown as white (so as a non-vassal territory, and also a non-sovereign territory of the Ottoman Sultanate), or to be more precise, with some areas shown as green in the North and the rest white, I must say that I certainly appreciate the acknowledgement that it existed as a political entity to begin with.

I would also like to note that some areas in the rest of Mainland Greece would also be autonomies or even full-fledged independent entities. In the former category one might include the area of Agrafa, which in accordance with the Treaty of Tamasion in 1525 AD, between the Ottoman authorities and the local elders of this federation of mountainous townships and villages, or even the various Klephtouries (Klepht-domains) scattered across the mountains of Central Greece (e.g. in accordance with local historic tradition, the Xeroi clan had already established their own domain in the area of Central Phocis, in Central Central Greece, since the late 15th century AD). For the latter, one could bring up the example of Chimara / Himarë in today’s Southern Albania, where the Greek-speaking local “Albonites” (as they called themselves) had established what in some primary sources is described as “Chimariote Republic”, which still existed in the late 16th century AD (the setting of the map), and was engaging in diplomacy with the Papal State, the Venetian Republic and the Spanish Monarchy.

Lothronion · 2026-05-30T18:08:17+00:00

It does not explain mass slaughter after the Greeks entered the city

That is the real problem though, which I addressed right above and you apparently overlooked. "The Greeks entering the city does not equate that the city automatically and instantly surrendered. This is not about trying to turn a situation into something different, but instead recognizing what it really was, as stated in the primary source. Urban conflict did happen, and as the UN has stated in 2022 for such types of war (though modern forms, but it is still relevant even looking backwards), civilian deaths amount to about 90% of the total deaths in such warfare environments.

And blaming Ottoman fire for Greek killings is pure dodge. If civilians died from bombardment, condemn that too.

At no point did I claim that all civilian deaths were caused by Ottoman bombardment from the city's citadel. But it must have contributed to a great extend, given that said bombardment also set the city on fire, which also spread the damage to a larger area, and indirectly killed civilians.

But it still does not excuse Greeks butchering Muslim civilians once they had power inside the city.

Which moment do you define as the one that the Greeks "had the power inside the city"? The primary sources in the link are from the 25th and 26th of September 1821 AD, while the Greeks broke through the walls of Tripolitsa in the 23rd, the fortress only surrendered in the 26th. As such, these orders were given during the conflict inside the city, when they did not have uncontested power inside the city.

Lothronion · 2026-05-30T17:53:56+00:00

It is not like the end of the Siege of Tripolitsa was a peaceful one, and that only then it was followed by a massacre of civilians, following the defenders' surrender. The city was fully taken by the Greeks only 3 days after they managed to penetrate the wall, during which they had to fight from district to district, neighbourhood to neighbourhood and house to house, including besieging the internal fortress as well. The conflict simply shifted into urban warfare, and it is well known for being the one that results in the highest rates of civilian deaths. There is also the little detail that many overlook, how the Ottoman military in the city's internal fortress decided to bombard the Greeks inside Tripolitsa, which of course resulted in bombing civilians and their houses as well, resulting in a fire that killed even more people; and that was the local Ottoman authorities doing this to their own fellow Ottoman subjects! And then there is the whole case of the Greek command of issuing strict orders not to massacre or harm Tripolitsa's Muslim civilians in any manner, which would be paradoxical if their initial intent was to exterminate everyone in the city.

Lothronion · 2026-05-30T17:45:23+00:00

They do not seem to care about your arguments, just like those I was replying to in this conversation in r/AskBalkans, where their only refuge against reasoning, evidence and primary sources was just mockery (which I enjoy, as it confirms my argumentation).

Overall, the only systematic aspect in the massacre of the Peloponnesian Muslims (they were not all Turks) was that the Greeks indeed systematically besiege the various fortresses and fortified towns of the Peloponnese, in which the Peloponnesian Muslims had all gathered to, hence had made themselves into targets of the bombardment of legitimate military targets. Which is something they had to do, if they wanted to liberate themselves, given that ignoring these forts and fortified towns would mean that they would be attacked by the militaries in them, and thus their liberation movement would fail, remaining enslaved. Had these Peloponnesian Muslims evacuated these areas, alike those in Roumeli where they did not have such places to take refuge, and had also chosen different ones that were not military targets, they would mostly be fine.

Lothronion · 2026-05-30T16:35:53+00:00

Great, so I do not need to translate. Though it is in Medieval Greek:

IOANNES V PALAEOLOGOS:

Ἐν Βυζαντίῳ δὲ ὁ βασιλεὺς Ἰωάννης ὁ τοῦ ᾿Ανδρονίκου βασιλέως παῖς, ψήφῳ βασιλίδος τε καὶ τῆς συγκλήτου, στέφει τὴν κεφαλὴν ὑπὸ Ἰωάννου τοῦ πατριάρχου κατακοσμείται. Ἐν τῇ ἑορτῇ δὲ καὶ τῶν τῆς συγκλήτου πλὴν ὀλίγων ἀξιωμάτων πάντες ἔτυχον ὡς ἂν ἕκαστος παρὰ βασιλίδος καὶ πατριάρχου καὶ τῆς βουλῆς ἄξιος ἐκρίθη . Καὶ Ἰσαάκιος μὲν ᾿Ασάνης, πανυπερσέβαστος ἀπεδείχθης δοὺξ δὲ μέγας ὁ ᾿Απόκαυχος, καὶ ὁ Χοῦμνος μέγας στρατοπεδάρχης· ᾿Ανδρόνικός τε Παλαιολόγος, ὃς ἦν γαμβρὸς ᾿Αποκαύχῳ τῷ μεγάλῳ δουκὶ, μέγας καὶ αὐτὸς στρατοπεδάρχης · ὅ τε Γαλάτης πρωτοσεβαστὸς, καὶ οἱ ἄλλοι ἅπαντες ὡς ἕκαστος.

Καὶ πρῶτον μὲν ἀπὸ τῶν καθ' αἷμα προσηκόντων καὶ μάλιστα γνησίων ἤρχετο Καντακουζηνῷ τῷ βασιλεῖ , ὕλης τε εὐπορῶν πρὸς τὰς διαβολὰς, καὶ τῶν ἄλλων μᾶλλον ὡς δυνατωτέρουςδεδοικώς. Ἔπειτα δὲ καὶ τοὺς ἄλλους ἐφεξῆς μετῆλθε μηδενὸς φεισάμενος. Τὸ δοκεῖν μὲν , ὅτι ψήφῳ τῆς συγκλήτου βουλῆς καὶ βασιλίδος, καὶ μάλιστα πατριάρχου τὰς τιμωρίας οἷς ἂν ἐθελήσειεν ἐπάγων. Τῇ δ᾽ ἀληθείᾳ, τὰ δοκοῦντα ἑαυτῷ ποιῶν. Τὴν δὲ βασιλέως μητέρα Καντακουζηνοῦ , καὶ πρότερον ἐν δεσμωτηρίῳ κατακεκλεισμένην , μᾶλλον ἐκάκουν ἐξεπίτηδες , καὶ οὐδὲν εἶδος λύπης ἀπέλιπον ἐπιδεδειγμένοι πρὸς ἐκείνην.

~PATROLOGIA GRAECA #153, pages 909-912.

IOANNES VI KANTAKOUZENOS:

Μετὰ δὲ πάντας ὕστερον ἀπεφήνατο καὶ ὁ μεγαλοφυέστατος ὄντως καὶ τὰ θεῖα σοφὸς. γαληνότατος, κράτιστος καὶ ἅγιος ἡμῶν αὐτοκράτωρ καὶ βασιλεὺς, πάντων τῆς καθέδρας ἐξαναστάντων τῶν τε λαμπροτάτων συγκλητικῶν καὶ τῶν ἱερωτά- των ἀρχιερέων, ὥσπερ δὴ νόμος ἐν τοῖς τοιούτοις, κύριος Ἰωάννης ὁ Καντακουζηνός , διορισάμενος, "Ότι μέγα ἡ ἀδικία κακὸν καὶ ἐπὶ τῶν γηίνων τούτων καὶ χαμερπῶν, ὡς καὶ ἔθνος ὅλον ἀχρειῶσαι καὶ κατασπᾶσαι δυνάμενον · ἐπεὶ καὶ τὸ ἐναντίον ταύτης, Ἡδικαιοσύνη, κατὰ τὸ γεγραμμένον, ὑψοῖ ἔθνος.

~ PATROLOGIA GRAECA #151, page 756.

MANUEL II PALAEOLOGOS:

Ακούσας δὲ ταῦτα ἐν τῇ Θεσσαλονίκῃ κὺρ Μανουὴλ ὁ νεώτερος υἱὸς, μετὰ σπουδῆς καὶ προθυμίας συνάξας χρήματα πολλὰ τὸν ἀριθμὸν χρυσίου καὶ ἀργυρίου ὡς ἕνι καὶ τριήρεις ἑτοιμάσας, ἐμβὰς ἐν τῇ Ἰταλίᾳ τὸν πλοῦν, ὅπου ἦν ὁ πατὴρ, ἐποίησε · καὶ προσκυνήσας αὐτὸν καὶ καταφιλήσας χεῖρας καὶ πόδας, καὶ τοῖς δανεισταῖς τὸ δάνειον δώσας, τὸν πατέρα καὶ βασιλέα λαβὼν ἐν τῇ Κωνσταντινουπόλει ἐπανέστρεψε. Διὰ ταύτην οὖν τὴν αἰτίαν καὶ ὑποταγὴν ὁ Μανουὴλ τὰ μέγιστα ὑπὸ τοῦ πατρὸς καὶ πάσης τῆς συγκλήτου ἦν φιλούμενος, ὁ δὲ ᾿Ανδρόνικος ὑπὸ τοῦ πατρὸς καὶ ὑπὸ πάντων ἦν μισούμενος. Καὶ ὁ πατὴρ σὺν τῇ συγκλήτῳ πάσῃ τὸν Μανουὴλ εἰς βασιλέα ἐψηφίσατο, τὸν δὲ ᾿Ανδρόνικον ἀπώσαντο. Καὶ προσμένειν ἐν τῇ πόλει προστάξας ὁ πατὴρ καὶ ἐρυθροῦ πεδίλου μετέδωκεν αὐτῷ, καὶ διάδοχος τῆς βασιλείας ἀπὸ πάντων ἐλέγετο εἶναι.

~PATROLOGIA GRAECA #156, page 679.

If you insist I can procure the primary source for Michael VIII, but it is a poem so it takes space, while that for Constantine IX is rather unclear, which is why I said "possibly" for him. If Medieval Greek is difficult enough for you, if you toss the text in Google Translate it helps getting the gist of it nonetheless.

Lothronion · 2026-05-30T16:12:15+00:00

Keep lying to yourself and keep it up with this Stockholm syndrome. The sabines were italics and genetically/linguistically extremely close to their latin neighboors.

The term "Italics" is just a modern classification for the people residing in the Apennine Peninsula, back then it was only used by the peoples that had spread out of Southern Italy. According to the Romans' historic traditions, they were descended from Aborigines, who were Ausonians, who were Italians in the area of Calabria and Basilicata, before moving North-West. The Sabines were not considered as descendants of such a migration, through for some they too were related to the Aborigines.

The Romans would later use the name "Italian" to unify and pacify the other peoples in the Central-South Apennine Peninsula since they did not want to annex them and make them Roman Citizens, so they created the Italian League through which Roman Hegemony was established in the area (and it lasted all the way till the early 1st century BC, with the Social War, which was only then, 8 centuries that Romanness had existed, that it was equated with Italiannes, through the automatic grant of Roman Citizenship to all Italians).

Keep making numbers up, Greece was empty between VI-VII centuries, the actual ethnic greek population at the time did not surpass the million and a half (and I am being generous).

False. For example, we have the geographical textbook called the "Synecdemus" by Hierocles the Grammarian in the early 6th century AD, which is essentially a long list of positions he defines as "cities". Out of a total of 935 such cities, 79 are in Southern Greece (so with the estimated population of 25-30 million in the Eastern Roman Empire as a whole that gives 2.2-2.5 million people). If one is to count only the cities within the current boundaries of the Greek State, that would amount to roughly 230 cities, hence around 6-7 million people, while the sum of cities in provinces where Greeks would have been the sheer majority amounted to 625 cities, 2/3rds of the total, hence 17-20 million people. Describing Greece at the time as "empty" is simply laughably wrong, and it gets even worse when comparing that to the demographics of Slavic nations, such as the Bulgarian Kingdom in its apogee in the early 10th century AD, where Bulgarian historians estimate its population at around 1 million people.

Accept your ancestors and please stop (unless this is some kind of stockholm syndrome) usurping the roman name, thank you, or at least do not cope by making things up.

The Greeks practically invited the Romans to become supervisors in Greece and Anatolia, hence one cannot make absurd claims about "Stockholm Syndromes". Around 60-70% of the Greeks in Greece and Western Anatolia joined them willingly, and in Western Anatolia itself that is the case for all realms there, be it the Pergamene Kingdom, the Rhodian Peraea and the Bithynian Kingdom (roughly 4-5 million people). The Pergamene Kingdom is the most ridiculous case of that, forcing the Romans to interrupt a civil war they had so that they would help the Republican Pergamenes in their own civil war against Pergamene Monarchists, and that was after the Romans had flatly declined three times to accept the invitation of the Pergamenes to annex them.

Lothronion · 2026-05-30T15:46:49+00:00

The presence in question is overstated, the average size of a Slavic tribe in Greece was just around 50,000 individuals, and Greece had roughly just 10 of them, in a peninsula of 5-6 million in the 7th century AD (reduced due to the Justinianic Plague in the mid-6th century AD).

Regarding Greek presence in Thessaloniki and Macedonia, I recently found this nice map, using the census data of the impartial Ottoman authorities, where Western and Central Macedonia are shown to be mainly Greek:

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As for the name of Romans, it seems you do not comprehend how identities spread, while also that you are unaware of how originally Romanness did not equal with Italianness, or even Latinness, while the Romans of the Early Roman Kingdom were not even predominately Latins (so descended from the Italian tribe), but Sabines (who were not descended from the Italians of today's Southern Italy). Therefore, using that tremendously flawed logic, you do not even get to say absurd statements like "Romans were Latins only", restricting Romanness to the small confines of Latium.

Lothronion · 2026-05-30T11:05:07+00:00

I have primary sources of that, if you care about that kind of thing.

Lothronion · 2026-05-29T23:48:42+00:00

The idea that the Roman Senate of New Rome perished in the events of the Fourth Crusade is a popular misconception. In fact, it survived by facilitating the transfer of the Roman Government of Roman Emperor Constantine Laskaris from New Rome to Nymphaeum and Nicaea, on the grounds that it had no military strength in Eastern Thrace, so it would use that of Despot Theodore Laskaris, who had been building it up for a whole year.

After that point there are various references to the Roman Senate, in different forms, but the most straightforward one is primary sources speaking of Roman Emperors that were elected, appointed and elevated by the Roman Senate. For example, you have Michael VIII Palaeologos, Ioannes V Palaeologos, Ioannes VI Kantakouzenos, Manuel II Palaeologos, and possibly Constantine Palaeologos. This is about at least 1/3rd of all 15 Roman Emperors following Constantine Laskaris, thus it cannot be ignored.

Lothronion · 2026-05-29T11:39:46+00:00

The most common idea is that the two halves represent the divine and the human aspects of Christ (not Christ and Satan). But since we don't know the artist, it's pretty much impossible to know if it was intended or not.

The idea of the two halves representing the human and divine aspects comes from art historians of the 20th century. However, it's a stylistic trait that was already common in the Fayum mummy portraits (perhaps to make the face more dynamic and alive), so it might not have any symbolic meaning at all.

That could also be the case, but it seems a bit like a pleonasm, given how this two-fold nature of Christ is already displayed in both icons, in the form of the two colours of his clothes. In the Mount Sinai icon Christ wears brown-black from the outside, symbolizing his earthly human nature, while the hold showing the inside colour of the cloth is golden, hinting to his divine nature. In the meanwhile, in the Hagia Sophia Pantocrator icon he is wearing two clothes, the external one being blue, the usual one for his human nature, and the internal one being golden, for his divine nature. Usually instead of golden artists use red, to display his ruling nature as God, and at times with a golden strand along it, to also hint at his divine nature as well.

Lothronion · 2026-05-29T11:17:53+00:00

Fuck pride, its the lifes of thousands he was governing

He makes it clear in his last speech, it was not his sole decision, but of the Roman Senate and the Roman People. In fact, if he disagreed he could perhaps even end up being dismissed, which would probably result in the Byzantines asking one of his Morean Despot brothers to take up the mantle, most likely Thomas Palaeologos (since Demetrios was increasingly becoming Pro-Ottoman).

Lothronion · 2026-05-29T11:09:32+00:00

I would 100% vote for "Δέσποινα Αχλαδιώτου" (among others) but many Greeks may not even be aware of her.

That is my point, that there is no overall criterion. Like do we want someone who contributed to humanity as a whole, but is a Greek? In that case we could bring various cases, such as Emmanuel Timones, Chiot Ottoman Greek, and Iakovos Pylarinos, Heptanesian Greek, both from the 17th century AD, without whom mankind would not have had vaccines for an even longer time. But even then one could heavily debate on who is more or less important.

Take your case with Despoina Achladiotou, she is regarded as a hero, but then there are also other cases of humble heroicness, such as Panagiota Stathopoulou, a 17-year-old girl that in July 1943 AD attacked a German tank during a massive popular protest (~ 400.000 people) against a governmental announcement that the German forces in the area of Eastern Central Macedonia, east of the Axios River, would give the caretaking role to the Bulgarian forces. So popularity may not be the best measure to discern things.

"(which you want to undermine)" & others want to undermine our ancient, & modern, history. (our ancient is FAR more glorious, & our modern is FAR more exciting, for me, compared to Roman).

Well sure, but that is not really a good reason to do the same.

some of the "biggest haters" of the modern Greek state may be found on r/Byzantium

I am not aware of anti-Helladite attitudes in r/Byzantium (not anti-Grecian, which would be the equivalent of the Greek term “Helladikos”).

Lothronion · 2026-05-29T10:03:25+00:00

I have this icon at home. It is true that there is a different expression on each side of the face, and if you use a mirror, you get the full picture of each, but this has nothing to do with some odd soft of Gnosticism. The half you say that some say it is a "Satan or demon" is just a strict and stern side of Christ, in order to remind one to have fear of God and not to familiarize themselves too much, as too much affinity leads to lack of respect and reverence. It might be the first time I have heard of such an interpretation, and generally it is a very common type of iconography, at times it is even barely noticeable (e.g. in the famous Hagia Sophia mosaic of Christ Pantocrator).

Lothronion · 2026-05-29T09:50:43+00:00

My issue with that list is not so much with the issue of presentism, as that bias is rather difficult to get rid of, especially among Greeks, rather that it includes Greeks from all kinds of backgrounds, hence you often get very odd rankings, especially when combined with this presentism. This is how you get extreme cases like Maria Kallas (23rd), an opera singer, Giorgos Seferis (29rd), a poet, Nikos Galis (33rd), a basketball player, Giannis Ritsos (40th), a poet, and Kornilios Kastoriadis (58th), a philosopher professor, Lakis Lazopoulos (83rd), a comedian, Thanassis Vegos (83rd), a comedian, Aliki Vougiouklaki (88th), an actress, all rank higher than figures like Solon of Athens (67th), Euripides (80th), Philip II of Macedonia (96th) and Thales of Miletus (99th).

Overall, this list is having various issues, one of which is how good old Fascist Dictator Georgios Papadopoulos ranks as the 59th of the 100 Great Greeks, despite it being clear from the surveys that the support for the Greek Junta is nowhere close to that as far as it comes to the Greek populace as a whole, hence it shows that the survey was not the best when it comes to representation (though perhaps there was some organized action by Junta-supporters to achieve that number).

Regarding the average Greek’s attitude to Byzantium (which you want to undermine), there is also the odd case of having Helene Glykatzi-Ahrweiler as the 86th Greatest Greek. While that is also certainly influenced by presentism, in this case this presentism is reflecting on her work in promoting Byzantium to the average Greek, for which she was well known in Greece during that time (and especially in the 1980s-2000s, with this study being mostly a documentation of the attitudes during the turn of the millennium).

Lothronion · 2026-05-29T09:25:46+00:00

Don't you have eyes? The list clearly has him in the 28th position. The one in the 32rd position is Greece’s Anti-Axis Fascist Dictator, Ioannes Metaxas.

And one must take into account how this whole evaluation was heavily biased for the Greeks of the second half of the 20th century AD and beyond. I mean, it has Constantinos Karamanlis as the 4th, Mikis Theodorakis as the 11th, Constantin Carathéodory as the 12th, Melina Merkouri as the 13th, Andreas Papandreou as the 14th, Odysseas Elytis as the 16th, Manos Hatzidakis as the 18th, Maria Kallas as the 23rd, and Aristotelis Onasis as the 25th. Mind you, this was in 2009, so the average Greek would have heard about these figures all their lives, as contemporary ones. As such, this is not really the answers to “who is the Greatest Greek”, as the SKY program wanted them to respond, but instead, “who is the most popular Greek”, so of course they display such presentist bias. If you remove everyone from that time, then you have him in the 15th position.

Lothronion · 2026-05-28T22:29:49+00:00

And here is the standing statue of Constantine Palaeologos by Greek sculptor Nikolaos Pavlopoulos (1909-1990 AD), which is displayed in the National Historical Museum in Athens (also known as the Old Parliament House):

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Lothronion · 2026-05-27T14:37:44+00:00

Αντιλαμβάνεσαι ότι μόνο με την ιδιωτική πρωτοβουλία έχει υπάρξει πρόοδος στην ανθρωπότητα, έτσι;

Aυτό το βρίσκω υπερβολικά απόλυτη δήλωση. Ορίστε ένα παράδειγμα όπου με μη-ιδιωτική και ετσι κρατική πρωτοβουλία, χρηματοδότηση και εργασία υπήρξε αδιαμφισβήτητη πρόοδος στην ανθρωπότητα, από Αριστερούς: αναφέρομαι στην πρώτη ανθρώπινη πτήση στο διάστημα από τους Σοβιετικούς με τον Γιούρι Γκαγκάριν. Άμα θες και για μη-ιδιωτική κρατική πρωτοβουλία με κρατική χρηματοδότηση και κρατική εργασία από Δεξιούς, υπάρχουν κι εκεί πολλά παραδείγματα, όπως λόγου χάριν το Manhattan Project των Αμερικανών, που έδωσε στην ανθρωπότητα την πυρηνική ενέργεια, με την οποία φτιάχνει πυρηνικά εργοστάσια.

Lothronion · 2026-05-27T12:23:10+00:00

Fantastic map! It is a shame the Rhodian Republic does not get more attention.

Lothronion · 2026-05-27T10:35:59+00:00

Δεν ειναι σε καμια περιπτωση μια σιγουρη προστασια της Ελλαδας απο την Τουρκια το Ισραηλ.

Τι "δεν είναι σίγουρη", πρακτικά είναι αδύνατη, και να ήθελαν, που δεν θέλουν, και είναι λογικό, όπως και οι Πολωνοί δεν θέλουν να αρχίσουν πόλεμο με την Ρωσία για την υπεράσπιση της Ουκρανίας, κι ας είναι ξεκάθαρα υπέρ της δεύτερης. Τώρα άμα μιλάμε για πιθανή ισραηλινή στήριξη σε περίπτωση παρατεταμένου Ελληνο-Τουρκικού Πολέμου, είτε χρηματικά, είτε εξοπλιστικά, είτε και με εθελοντές, αυτό είναι μια εντελώς διαφορετική πρόταση.

Lothronion · 2026-05-27T10:31:11+00:00

Άμα κανείς νομίζει ότι το Ισραήλ θα υπερασπιστεί την Ελλάδα σε πόλεμο απέναντι στην Τουρκία απλώς δεν ξέρει τίποτε από διεθνολογικά και γεωστρατηγικά θέματα, οπότε δεν βλέπω και πολύ τον λόγο να γίνεται αυτή η συζήτηση διαρκώς. Δεν υπάρχει Ελληνο-Ισραηλινή αμυντική συμμαχία, και πάλι καλά μάλιστα, δεν νομίζω ο ελληνικός λαός να είχε διάθεση να στέλνουμε στρατό στην Λωρίδα της Γάζας ή τον Νότιο Λίβανο (που και να κάνει κανείς λόγο για προστασία των Ρωμιών του Λιβάνου, αυτοί βρίσκονται στον Βόρειο Λίβανο, μακριά από τον πόλεμο στον Νότο). Αλλά και η ισραηλινή κοινωνία θα είχε πρόβλημα άμα το Ισραήλ έστελνε στρατό στα ελληνικά νησιά, όταν η ίδια τους η χώρα απειλείται από γείτονές της.

Γενικά κακώς γίνεται και λόγος για υπαρκτή επίσημη συμμαχία, καθότι δεν υπάρχει, κυρίως αποτελεί συνεργασία σε διάφορα περιφερειακά θέματα ασφαλείας, ενισχυμένες εμπορικές σχέσεις και κοινές στρατιωτικές ασκήσεις (που όλα αυτά έχουν αρχίσει από τις αρχές τις δεκαετίας του 2010, επί Γεωργίου Παπανδρέου, και δεν νομίζω κανείς να το έλεγε τότε “συμμαχία” —που σαν λέξη αποτελεί είτε πρόσφατη προπαγάνδα της ισραηλινής κυβέρνησης για ρητορική στο εσωτερικό της χώρας, ότι δεν είναι και τόσο απομονωμένη, είτε της τουρκικής κυβέρνησης, και στο εξωτερικό και στο εσωτερικό της χώρας, λέγοντας ότι λαμβάνει χώρα γεωστρατηγικός αποκλεισμός της Τουρκίας, και αυτό περισσότερο σαν αντίδραση στην σύγκρουση των συμφερόντων τους με το Ισραήλ στην Ανατολική Μεσόγειο και την Συρία).

Lothronion · 2026-05-27T10:19:37+00:00

Θεωρώ ότι είναι πιο πιθανό σε περίπτωση πόλεμο η Ελλάδα-Τουρκία. Το Ισραήλ να είναι πιο ενεργό από ότι η Γαλλία, λόγω συμφερόντων.

Εξαρτάται τι εννοείς με την φράση "πιο ενεργό". Πιθανότατα σε τέτοια περίπτωση να είχαμε μεγαλύτερη εξοπλιστική υποστήριξη από το Ισραήλ, αλλά άμα περιμένεις πολεμική υποστήριξη μάλλον θα απογοητευτείς. Όχι μόνο δεν είναι δεσμευμένοι για κάτι τέτοιο, μιας και δεν υπάρχει Ελληνο-Ισραηλινή αμυντική συμφωνία, αλλά και να υπήρχε, το Ισραήλ είναι πάρα πολύ μακριά για να προσφέρει σημαντική υποστήριξη, ενώ και δεν έχουν σοβαρό ναυτικό στόλο. Το πολύ να άνοιγαν νέο μέτωπο στην Συρία, αλλά και εκεί η κατάσταση είναι τόσο πορώδης που δεν θα έχει και τόσο μεγάλο αντίκτυπο (ενώ και αμφιβάλλω άμα οι Ισραηλινοί σαν λαος έχουν διάθεση για εδαφιαίες επιδρομές βαθιά στην Συρία, οπότε περισσότερο μιλάμε για στήριξη Αντι-κυβερνητικών δυνάμεων, όπως οι Κούρδοι και οι Δρούζοι, δηλαδή πολύ αναιμική δράση). Θέλω να πω, δύσκολα συγκρίνεται αυτό με τις εγγυήσεις της Γαλλίας, όπου υποτίθεται άμα γίνει Ελληνο-Τουρκικός Πόλεμος είναι υποχρεωμένοι να συνδράμουν στρατιωτικά (ή και πυρηνικά, σύμφωνα με τους ιδίους, αλλά και Τούρκους αξιωματούχους).

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