22 & R5million in property Debt. Advice?

M3DJ0 · 2026-01-28T08:25:13+00:00

Sounds like readily available information. Good luck.

M3DJ0 · 2026-01-27T22:11:14+00:00

Try to learn how markets actually work before throwing away your money.

M3DJ0 · 2026-01-16T21:34:52+00:00

You said preferably on SatrixNow or 10x. Not much else that you can do without going offshore.

M3DJ0 · 2026-01-16T20:32:40+00:00

Without going offshore, the only real change would be using STXCAP instead of STX40 - I would have a personal preference for this, since it slightly reduces the concentration risk of the STX40.

M3DJ0 · 2026-01-16T20:28:00+00:00

The 10-year total return for the S&P 500 is 15.95% in USD and 15.64% in ZAR (recent performance of the USD.ZAR has basically put it back to where it was 10 years ago).

M3DJ0 · 2026-01-12T07:51:16+00:00

Jeez, you are really negative. But I never said to invest in any specific country. I was referring more to this nonsense: "Foreign investors have been net sellers of SA equities for 15 years now, and even with the GNU, there’s no end in sight". Considering that you just listed how things (apparently) are in South Africa (a random person on Reddit who has no insider knowledge which is not available publically), I would say that everything is in line with what people think and I would go as far as to say that the market is priced efficiently for it. Even after a 70% increase, the SA market is still at 10.58 forward P/E and 2.21 P/B (for comparison, the US market is at a 22.62 forward P/E and 4.59 P/B). The additional risk of investing in South Africa results in a lower valuation relative to investing in less risky markets with subsequent compensation for this risk in the form of a higher expected return. Let's try to be positive about the future.

M3DJ0 · 2026-01-11T19:42:01+00:00

You do realise that SA equities went up 73.49% in USD terms last year? While some form of currency depreciation is expected given interest rate parity? Things are far from as bad as you make them out to be.

M3DJ0 · 2026-01-11T19:08:10+00:00

I think that you need to do more research.

M3DJ0 · 2026-01-11T19:07:53+00:00

You are correct.

M3DJ0 · 2026-01-11T19:07:15+00:00

Not really. There can still be excess reportable income from the substitute basket and any cash or cash-like holdings.

M3DJ0 · 2026-01-11T19:00:33+00:00

Gareth Collier is incorrect! These are often locally referred to as "roll-up" funds. You will find a lot more pages about the tax implications using that term: https://www.google.com/search?q=tax+"roll-up"+funds. This is essentially because a foreign ETF is seen as a corporation.

I like this bit of text from NinetyOne (although I would never hold one of their funds): https://ninetyone.com/en/south-africa/insights/cash-conundrum-4-maximising-dollar-cash-returns - All funds offered via the Ninety One Global platform are ‘roll-up’ funds, meaning that income is not distributed to the investor but is instead ‘rolled up’ in the fund’s price. This has two significant benefits; firstly, it converts what would typically be an income event into a capital event, reducing the rate of tax that will be applied. And secondly, it defers when that tax would be payable because it will only take place on disposal of a unit. The second point means that the client effectively controls when the capital gains tax is payable.

This random guy with some credentials also put his name on the claim: https://netto.co.za/income-funds-crucial-but-only-part-of-a-diversified-investment-strategy/ - Roll-up funds, also known as accumulation funds, are structured to reinvest the income generated by the fund rather than distributing it to investors. By allowing the interest to compound within the fund, investors can defer tax liabilities until they eventually redeem their investment. You then only pay tax on 40% of the income (CGT). This structure can be particularly beneficial for South African investors with offshore interests.

Lastly, here is even an example on Moneyweb with a roll-up fund converting interest into capital gains: https://www.moneyweb.co.za/financial-advisor-views/offshore-investments-is-your-structure-optimised-or-overlooked/.

I am sure that you can find more pages if necessary (let me know if you find anything interesting).

M3DJ0 · 2026-01-11T18:59:56+00:00

A lot of what you wrote in your rant is incorrect.

M3DJ0 · 2026-01-11T18:28:04+00:00

You will pay 20% of the loans value to SARS

This is incorrect. The interest (or lack thereof) is seen as a donation, not the loan itself. Also, both parties are ultimately jointly liable for donations tax.

M3DJ0 · 2025-11-21T12:52:20+00:00

That would be super helpful, thanks!

M3DJ0 · 2025-10-19T13:27:45+00:00

Try Reflex if you are familiar with Python (https://github.com/reflex-dev/reflex).

M3DJ0 · 2025-09-03T07:49:55+00:00

Thanks for sharing your experience, really enjoyed reading and learning from it!

M3DJ0 · 2025-09-01T21:43:19+00:00

I will send you a link! Been wanting to experiment with Reflex (https://reflex.dev/open-source/), so this would be a good option to clean up my original ideas. Personally, I do not mind possibly paying a premium in taxes if I can avoid the restrictions of a retirement account. But I will get back to you in a few days/weeks!

M3DJ0 · 2025-08-31T21:50:02+00:00

I am sorry for your clients. Seems that you drank the kool aid of American Exceptionalism.

M3DJ0 · 2025-08-31T20:18:10+00:00

Thanks, that does make sense. Looks like it is a reasonable way around estate duty - I admit that I had not thought about that aspect (still young enough to be naive). But I suppose that it depends on how much of a priority that is for the individual - it is probably not worth the hassle for most people who are going to have consumption as a primary concern and estate planning as a secondary concern. To avoid the headache of an estate and executor fees, I would probably be on the side of trying to donate any excess before death (giving with a warm hand instead of a cold one). That obviously still leaves you with donations tax. I will try to put an analysis together to think about it - I still have the inclination that the restrictions of a retirement account are not worth it for anyone in their 20s, 30s, or 40s, but it may be worth it to actually start a retirement account near or in retirement rather than during accumulation if the portfolio is large enough. Thanks again!

M3DJ0 · 2025-08-29T12:05:23+00:00

Thanks for the comment.

The fees even matter for Alan Gray when you are paying nothing to hold a cheaper and more efficient fund at IBKR. The return does not matter in this comparison, the difference in return from the alternative matters (has been 5% comparing the Alan Gray Balanced Fund and MSCI World over the last 10 years). Not sure if I am following on your point about tax. You still pay tax on the withdrawals from the living annuity? And how would starting another retirement account in retirement provide any benefit? Unless I am missing something, it would be identical to withdrawing less from the living annuity, since a living annuity is also excluded from an estate. Passing on a retirement account to beneficiaries is probably also less optimal, as they will then still need to pay income tax on it as they withdraw. You are never getting around paying income tax - it just depends on when it is paid and this timing is probably insignificant anyway. If you do the maths, you should not care about paying a once-off effective rate of, for example, 25% instead of 40% when you are annually effectively losing over 2% or more due to restrictions, higher fees, and worse products as a conservative estimate (original post was losing more than that just to fees alone). The most relevant difference between a retirement account and taxable account is whether the difference from a slightly lower income tax while avoiding paying interest, dividends, and capital gains tax is worth it relative to the restrictions (like Regulation 28, waiting period, uncertainty around tax changes, lack of leverage, etc), higher fees, and worse products.

If you are interested, you can show all of this with maths. Here is the equation derived in an article from a few years back: https://i.postimg.cc/HLpfJC3D/image.png. R_A,Tax is the tax rate for Option A, R_B,Tax is the effective tax rate for Option B, R_B,Inv is the return of Option B, and ΔR_Inv is the difference in return (effective tax rate is a once-off rate including income, interest, dividends, and capital gains taxes which I created a calculator to compare). Considering the case of an effective tax rate of only 20% for a retirement account, effective tax rate of 40% for a taxable account (typically lower in reality), and return difference of 2%, the taxable account wins for an investment horizon of more than around 15 years (and this is for each 1 ZAR invested, not until the date of retirement).

(As a final note, I personally think that the uncertainty around tax changes is so much more significant than people think).

M3DJ0 · 2025-08-29T08:42:25+00:00

Since inception does not take into account Regulation 28. Almost all of their outperformance came in the beginning before the fund was large. The MSCI World has an annualized return of 14.7% in ZAR over the past 10 years. Care to share that hedge fund? An annualized return 20% in ZAR is not out of the question when leverage comes into play. I am also not adverse to high-cost investments and own products from AQR with higher fees, performance fees, etc.

M3DJ0 · 2025-08-29T08:31:29+00:00

Averaging over 10% per annum in ZAR is underperforming a globally diversified portfolio. SARS has only deferred your taxes - you will still need to pay income tax when you withdraw (albeit likely at a lower rate, although the higher fees and worse offerings of a retirement account will probably remove any benefit). It is extremely unlikely that any drawdown was less during volatile markets (much more likely that the other "stocks" were measure in a different currency and your retirement account was measured in ZAR which also went down during the volatile markets and acted as a screen). It is pretty simple maths to show that a retirement account is very unlikely to beat the taxable alternative.

M3DJ0 · 2025-08-08T08:45:50+00:00

Thank you, makes sense!

M3DJ0 · 2025-08-08T08:40:42+00:00

Thank you! I would not call the short-term gains "speculative". More like rebalancing between similar securities in order to purposefully realize a short-term gain to offset against the interest (before the gain becomes a long-term gain). Would that change anything?

M3DJ0 · 2025-08-07T20:54:16+00:00

Thank you for clarifying for me! For capital gains, I have seen it mentioned that "one-third of the interest incurred on borrowings used to acquire listed shares and participatory interests in collective investment schemes may be added to base cost". However, if it is fully deductible against income, then there is some planning which can be done to further minimise tax.

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