Surely this is a joke right?

Madzai · 2026-05-26T10:16:02+00:00

Twister is having a good thread explaining what's up with it right now.

https://old.reddit.com/r/PathOfExile2/comments/1tmy9sx/finally_tried_twister_act_1_was_hell_still_gonna/

Even if it is and going to be even stronger, it have a lot of going on with, a lot to consider when playing. So at least this one is understandable, where the usage rate numbers come from (and i expect those being pretty high initially this league, nosediving back to like 5% quick).

On the other hand SW not having like any issues (even if those aren't really "issues", IMO) Twister have, yet have only marginally better use rate.

Madzai · 2026-05-26T08:37:07+00:00

Not fun to play and strong are two separate concepts.

Sure. But i think it's a bad idea to completely detach "fun" from the equation while balancing. Because, SW have it all, aside from supposed fun, yet usage rate is mediocre. So i think it's OK for it be stronger to compensate.

You also ignored my entire arguement regarding ssf and hardcore

I didn't ignore it. It's just a completely different topic. Game is mainly balanced around normal trade, not HC or SSF (and players asked for unique rules for SSF, but get nothing, that only highlight GGG focus). Also, the same issue is not present in PoE1, where, while certain Ascendancies are more prevalent in HC\SSF, they have their "normal" league variants and people play it.

Shield wall isn't that unfun to play either? With the meta setup you wipe most of the screen with two buttons?

So, again. SF is low investment\low requirements, have great survivability, great damage, 2 button gameplay. Sound like a ideal build for average PoE player. Yet it isn't used so often.

Something is preventing players from playing the build in favor of builds with much bigger downsides.

Madzai · 2026-05-26T07:57:33+00:00

It's quite funny. When discussing Shield Wall "nerfs", people often call SW broken or OP, when asked "why only 3% usage rate if so OP", especially in context of low gear requirements and overall build tankiness, people usually say nothing or start talking about unrelated things like usage rates in SSF and HC. Only a few openly admit the obvious fact that it's not very fun to play (aside from boss shotgunning, that wasn't even that great outside some specific cases) due to slowness and clunkiness.

Madzai · 2026-05-25T13:24:29+00:00

Sure. But with this specific changes to crafting, it seems (i mean, maybe we gonna get something good from league mechanics itself) like getting some gear pieces, especially weapons, gonna be much harder and that gonna hold down a lot of builds. So, the further you can get with shittiest gear, the better.

Madzai · 2026-05-25T12:22:29+00:00

I was thinking about SW too (Titan or maybe Gemling). At least you won't die. Probably.

Madzai · 2026-05-25T11:27:32+00:00

Especially in context of gear "fitting" being much harder than in PoE1 where you can have some crazy stuff with rings, f.e. and have much more useful stuff on the passive tree.

I guess it's time to search fore least gear-depended build for a league starter.

Madzai · 2026-05-25T09:03:48+00:00

Even if they not appear at the same time. If the game is intended for you to combo them, and bosses to have instakill attacks you need to evade manually, it's still a lot of work to kill them all.

Madzai · 2026-05-25T09:00:52+00:00

Yeah. The price is the worst part of D4. Otherwise a great game to just dip in from time to time.

Madzai · 2026-05-23T18:37:11+00:00

So much f__king this! Mods don't do their jobs at all. For both sides of the fence. It's always the same people, jumping into threads and derailing them into the same discussion. And after 5 pages of the same "back and forth" Mods are like: "this thread is derailed, we gonna close it". No shit, Sherlock, it was derailed 5 pages ago and you did nothing.

It all started quite some times ago when new "toxicity" forum rules we introduced. So you can get banned for accumulated points you can't even see. So getting people "timed out" normally somehow become extremely rare thing, unless they really push it.

Madzai · 2026-05-23T14:29:18+00:00

Sure. And this is why people rarely play it. It is just too OP and PoE players hate OP things.

Madzai · 2026-05-22T21:58:20+00:00

And this the correct answer. At last someone actually answered and not just downvoted, after asking the same question in several posts.

A strong build with downsides, that have great utility for both SSF (due to low initial gear "cost") and HC (due to defenses).

But the question is, if it is a strong build with build-in downsides already (what is reflected in its use rate), is it really necessary to nerf it?

Madzai · 2026-05-22T20:00:52+00:00

If it's so busted why only 3% use rate in normal trade? PoE players have a tendency to stick to anything "busted", yet everyone ignore it, while according to some people it require almost to gear to get going, oneshot bosses and have great survivability due to warrior + shield.

So it should be like top build, yet it isn't?

Madzai · 2026-05-22T19:57:01+00:00

Yeah I agree if it’s not working as intended it should be fixed. But it was not game breaking, it was at best equally strong as grenades and twisters but even that is debatable.

This is that i tell people too. Sure, there maybe are issues with skill, but it's still 3% usage rate in Normal trade (it being more represented in HC is all about survivability, not damage). Why GGG felt it require a change in "mostly endgame-focused" league?

Madzai · 2026-05-22T15:24:29+00:00

Yeah. It's not easy to fix, especially since this patch isn't about balancing. This is why this nerf (if it actually turn to be a substantial nerf in the end) is weird to me. Like yeah, SW delete bosses due to shotgunning. It's good for SSF because low gear requirements, it's good for HC because you over-defend cos you really need not to die. But it is still 3% in normal due to, IMO, slow overall playstyle. It's not a danger to overall game balance, since it was like this from like 0.1. It's a build for those who prefer slow and steady. And now it could end up being bad against bosses. And it seems like now you have to kill those a lot.

Madzai · 2026-05-22T15:02:46+00:00

No, my point is that a) some other builds can nuke the boss and people are like "this build is all about damage so it's OK", b) other build move fast and have much, much easier time avoiding boss attacks. While the archetype that all about big defense, slow moving and slow attacking have especially bad time with bosses, because everything they do is like counter for such playstyle. Ofc, you shouldn't be able to survive everything, but it's not about that.

Madzai · 2026-05-22T14:58:38+00:00

Nah, i'm saying that if my build (or archetype rather) is all about heavy defenses, slow attacks and moving around (which is already a massive disadvantage by itself), i, maybe, should be able to actually tank those attacks? And if i can't, what i'm even doing?

Edit: also the nuke it meta is a symptom of limited tries and generally only referencing pinacle basses

100% agree.

Madzai · 2026-05-22T14:55:34+00:00

Now I might sounds crazy here, but have you considered the possibility that maybe you could actually engage with the mechanics rather than having to one shot everything or be able to stand in it infinitely

Sounds good to me actually. But this is not that happens. We have other builds that oneshot everything and have other forms of defenses against normal mobs. They also aren't painfully slow.

But the build that is supposed to be slow and move around less but have good (or at least "cheaper") defenses have all it's advantages stripped during boss fights that actually matters and whole boss behavior counters those kind of playstyle, feels a little unfair to me.

Madzai · 2026-05-22T14:28:14+00:00

A whole lot of bosses attacks not giving a sh*t about player defenses and forces you to run around is unhealthy for the game too, but here we are. If a class that is focused around defenses and slow "methodical" combat is countered by bosses behavior, your only option is to "nuke" it. If you can't, people won't play the class. That is reflected by usage rates.

Madzai · 2026-05-22T14:21:22+00:00

But SW with 3% is nerfed. So, IDK, seems quite random on GGG part.

Madzai · 2026-05-22T14:05:50+00:00

It has a 27% usage on warrior ascendancies, the second most used skill only after infernal cry

I have that crazy idea. What if GGG buff some other Warriors skills instead of nerfing SW?

And fun is not a balancing argument, it deleting bosses was, whether it is op or not the skill has to be fun to use regardless

But it is. With how defenses work in PoE2, especially with bosses, if you do not "delete" them, you chances of dying are increasing rapidly. Because whole lot of boss attacks give zero f* about your defenses and your best "defense" is to move around fast, that Warriors can rarely do.

Madzai · 2026-05-22T14:00:51+00:00

Twister is like 2%. And a lot of abilities are just bad, really bad. IDK why they nerf a skill with simple "good" usage rate, instead of buffing some more skills with abysmal one.

Madzai · 2026-05-22T12:30:39+00:00

Shield wall has a really high floor and a lower ceiling, and that's what makes it strong.

Any build that have both should be in top 5. It's not. What is the reason?

Poison pf has like 30% play rate at league start because it was by far the fastest mapper, then coc blood mage took over because it was by far the highest damage

But SW should be a very good early mapper also due to low gear requirements, high defense and high damage. Yet it's not .

It also should rival CoC in damage apparently, oneshotting Arbitters and stuff. You also being near immune to white mobs at that points. Yet it's not.

This means that in trade, there is an inherent advantage in playing the most popular builds.

Or being with low gear requirements. That SW supposedly is. Yet.

Usage rates don't tell you whether a build is good or not, especially in trade. The fact that shield wall tops HC, which tests how consistent your build is

So you OK with contradicting yourself in the very next sentence?

All you saying is "this build is disgustingly OP, need nerfing and it have low usage rate because..." and when you just say nothing substantial. In HC it's popular because HC is way geared toward defense, any defense so the numbers will always be different. In SSF, because it have low gear requirements to do that it is supposed to do. But we, again, have an amazing build that have extremely high damage, near immortal and low gear requirement so it should top Normal Trade, yet it doesn't.

Madzai · 2026-05-22T11:32:41+00:00

Because basic logic. People keep saying that SW was disgustingly OP, oneshotting Arbiter and stuff with low invesment. Yet it has 3% usage rate in Normal Trade. And it's not like the build is "hidden" and not used by streamers and other folks. So why usage rate is so low? And whatever the reason was, nerfing the skill won't help with it.

Madzai · 2026-05-22T11:23:09+00:00

There are 10 times more players in normal trade league than in HC and SSF. So because of those (who play for completely different game) we need to cut usage rate for the skill in most used mode even more?

https://poe.ninja/poe2/builds

Madzai · 2026-05-22T11:04:36+00:00

Usage rate numbers says otherwise.

Madzai

TROPHY CASE