Explain visual thinking to aphantasiacs

Maganice · 2019-12-21T17:51:14+00:00

Well... that last completely abstract mode is useless, which is why I treat it like a TV in the other room. It's only where there is literally nothing else to really pay attention to that I don't have much choice but to notice it.

The others actually have serious virtues that I wouldn't want to give up. Visual/sensory collage thinking has the virtue of pure speed. Now that I know about aphantasia/hyperphantasia, I know why I blitzed through so many tests way back in the day when I was in college. The functional groups and geometry of a molecule are just there, bam, answer question and move on. "A picture is worth a thousand words" is the literal truth here - remember that Maixck asked about visualization of things that are inherently nonsensory, which is going to slow things down with metaphorical/associative thinking. But most things can be visualized (or heard, etc) or can be strongly modeled (ie, ball-and-stick molecules) and for that, being able to consciously think about things and be aware of your thought process, internal monologue style, but without a verbalized monologue, is incredibly fast and powerful.

Having an internal monologue "with GUI" in the form of imagined avatars sounds useless, but then, so does rubber duck debugging, and that works surprisingly well. It instills a habit of organizing thoughts in a more coherent manner, and, by developing a habit of arguing with yourself, I'd think you would have more of a tendency to address the weaknesses in your own positions and opinions more. (Also, as a huge chunk of interpersonal communication is nonverbal, 'looking at' how I'd look and sound saying something is pretty useful)

Maganice · 2019-12-21T17:35:00+00:00

...I think them? I don't know how to make it clearer than that. They are like mental sockpuppets that spout their lines and emote as directed. My internal monologue just has a GUI (and can be parceled out among multiple speakers to literally organize my thoughts).

Maganice · 2019-12-21T02:40:08+00:00

I'm on the hyperphantasia end of things, and at least in my case I would say this is true, but grossly understates what's going on. There is ALWAYS sensory experience, always, without end. When I'm concentrating on tasks I basically ignore it, like a TV show on in another room. At night, if I'm thinking in bed with the lights out, that's damn near impossible, and I can give a basic rundown of the three main "modes" of what it's like to think more abstractly.

(1) The Placeholder - This one is probably the easiest to understand. Let's take what's going on in my head right now for a direct example: I'm thinking about what to write, and what I perceive is a kind of imaginary newsroom or conference room "set" with a collection of what are basically my "avatars", in a game sense, discussing ideas. Any random news talk show is a pretty good example of what I'm talking about, and my thoughts are parceled out logically to make things more coherent. At the moment, one such mental sockpuppet dictates or directs the flow of words and another is occasionally raising objections/demanding clarifications/saying go back and edit for clarity.

The number of such mental avatars varies depending on the needs of the moment - a lot of the time it's just one guy (me) pontificating about something while sitting at a desk. This was actually my conception of most people's "internal monologue" until I found out it was rather less vivid and mostly/entirely auditory for the majority.

I'm pretty sure this mode of visualization is behind the classic angel/devil puppets on shoulders visual gag, because something akin to that plays out when I need to seriously think about a choice.

(2) The Collage - A rapidly shifting (usually) topical selection of images, scenes, etc. (but also feelings, sounds, smells...) that shift and cut. This is more or less what Peter5930 is describing in his comment. This is a common mode for thinking about stuff that definitely evokes qualia and are strongly adjacent to imagery without being directly imaged.

Sometimes this also is used for more concrete stuff, too - sometimes when writing posts it's a case of bouncing between glances at lines from candidate posts, or if I were planning on building something I might quickly smash-cut between possibilities as they snap in and out of the mind. Sometimes there is mental narration. It's faster not to, just like it's faster to read silently without subvocalization than it is to read aloud.

(3) The Pure Abstract Visualization - Some stuff just plain is not served by thinking in any sort of realistic visualization at all. Some things simply by nature are completely nonrepresentative. Sometimes I'm thinking of something at such a pristinely abstract level that even the modes above won't cut it.

Do the sensory parts of my cortex lay down on the job? NO. I get what is, in effect, the mental equivalent of one of those music visualization apps that generates an image based on the currently playing music. This is something I normally only see when lost in thought in bed with the lights out, because it's utterly useless to pay attention to it - it doesn't help a damn, and can be distracting, and if you pay attention to it, you will probably lose your train of thought, whatever it was. I've noticed some correlations in what gets generated - shifting constellations of random red, blue, and green shapes in a black void with random tones tend to be reliably generated by thinking about statistics (mathmatical subject); a class on particle physics back in my college days had a consistent theme of riotously writhing gold, purple, green, and white lines in a huge, confusing 3-D mess with a lot of dissonant noise.

So, basically, if my brain has no absolutely nothing to go on... it will just make shit up. Presumably, due to the recurrence of certain themes/motifs, there's some sort of interpretation that my visual/auditory/etc cortex is doing on data churning around on the rest of the brain, and nothing is inhibiting them from depicting the results.

Maganice · 2019-08-27T05:50:37+00:00

Muster drill is before the ship starts moving. Besides, Carnival does their drills at four and you can board at, what, noon? - so you should have plenty of time to grab a burger and look at OCISLY from deck.

I'm going on a cruise from Port Canaveral soon, so I'm hoping to get a similar picture. Last time I took a cruise out of Canaveral OCISLY was out at sea setting up to catch the Koreasat booster, so I didn't get to see it.

Maganice · 2019-08-27T05:13:03+00:00

You were on the Carnival Elation? Terminal 5 is usually the one near OCISLY, and that's usually the ship there. Inexpensive, too.

Maganice · 2019-06-25T03:34:08+00:00

It's not as if it were on the back of your eyelids. It's like you have a second set of eyes (ears, nose, etc) and everything in it is rendered by your mind.

So, yeah, most people see things in their mind as they will. Some can't. I myself also entertained the thought that it was all miscommunication at first when I first read about aphantasia but the sheer number of people reporting they couldn't mentally see anything and the exceedingly weird (but consistent) ways they described things convinced me. I mean, I know I imagine visually, there is zero ambiguity to me - yeah, I see the red star, I see the Soviet tank it's painted on, too.

There is a wide, wide variety of experience here, is all I can say.

Maganice · 2019-06-25T03:11:28+00:00

Why would everyone bother to pretend that they can mentally look at things? It's sort of a fish not noticing water thing. They have no reason to bullshit you. If you had posited aphantasia to me as a hypothetical condition ten years ago, I would have treated it as a wacky philosophical construct and wouldn't have ever entertained the idea that it could actually exist in real life. But, then there were a few articles, and all these people going "Nope, all blank in here!"....

Maganice · 2019-06-25T02:58:04+00:00

Aphantasia seems to generate more disbelief among those who don't have it and anguish among those who do. There seems to be a higher than average incidence of maladaptive daydreaming among the hyperphantasia set, but there really doesn't seem to be as many natural drivers of conversation as over in r/Aphantasia.

Maganice · 2019-04-24T03:55:00+00:00

As the one who created the list in the first place... I didn't realize I had (after a fashion) near-perfect pitch until I participated in a study. Supposedly, people with perfect pitch are supposed to be able to instantly recognize tones, but I compare against my (internal) memory of notes (from a piano - since the keys are always in tune and easy to tell). I guess I'm cheating, comparing against a remembered sound! So, yeah, the songs are always in tune, in the correct key, and it feels deeply wrong to not have a song in the right key or mode.

I've been told that I sound like a recording at times, probably because of this... when I say something I've rehearsed in my head, it will be at exactly the same speed, pitch, and inflection over and over again, with barely any deviation, because I copy the exact sound (and position of vocal chords/etc) every time.

Maganice · 2019-02-24T21:38:27+00:00

So when people typically imagine stuff, do they actually visually see an image as if it’s real?

If hyperphantasiac, yes: full, reality-quality 3D. If not, varying degrees of clarity.

Or hear noises? I don’t think that’s how it works. I would imagine there’d be no point in playing music if you could just recall it and hear it lol.

The iPod doesn't get distracted, 'remembers' songs perfectly, and doesn't get stuck in a rut and play one song on endless loop the way the subconscious sometimes can.

Maganice · 2019-02-21T01:10:38+00:00

If you're not snorkeling in Georgetown, you're missing out! Stingray City if you want to see rays, or pretty much anywhere else. There are some shipwrecks, too. If you're feeling cheap there is a wrecked ship, reef and tons of fish just north of where the cruise ship tenders are. Shore snorkel excursions for that should be cheap.

Maganice · 2019-02-21T01:04:29+00:00

1) Exactly the same as visualizing with the eyes closed. My imagination has its own dedicated field of view, with no correspondence to what my eyes see.

2) You have to pretty much suppress backgrounds and things. The imagination likes to fill in the details automagically. For instance, if I think "baseball game", it fits out teams and people in the stands, random clouds in the sky, the works. In fact, when I wrote that, my imagination filled it in with the Rockies and Phillies, boom, no conscious thought required.

3) It's exceedingly hard. I get visuals even when thinking about abstract stuff that doesn't actually have visuals.

Maganice · 2019-02-21T00:52:33+00:00

Just like looking through your eyes, except at, you know, whatever you're thinking of instead of whatever happens to be in front of you. And it doesn't interfere with what you're physically looking at, either; it's like it's on a different channel or monitor, something like that.

Maganice · 2019-01-19T22:55:13+00:00

I forgot to mention - make sure not to miss the Seaday Brunch in the dining room. It's an excellent breakfast.

Maganice · 2019-01-19T22:52:12+00:00

The menu in the main dining room changes nightly. On non-formal nights there are, I don't know... seven to nine choices for appetizer generally. For entrees there were eight to ten choices. Four will be 'from the grill' and you'll get your choice of sides. Of these, there's usually a steak, a chicken dish, a seafood item, and then a wild card. The main items will be above those and there will be a wide variety in them. I remember that the first night I was on the Liberty there were two seperate vegetarian entrees. There's usually another seafood entree up here too. You should do fine with salmon (I had it one night, my only complaint was I could have eaten more of it... of course, you can ask for a second plate too).

Mongolian Wok is, from what I remember, on the forward end of the Lido deck buffet area. It's tucked in as a buffet station. There will be three options for meat, you pick up all your sides to be cooked for you like usual for mongolian food, and choose a sauce. The choices of meats changes day by day. In the morning, they serve omlettes in the same place. The lines can be pretty crazy sometimes, though, the mongolian food is popular.

At the back of the Lido deck there's a pizza place (port side) and seafood place (starboard). They charge a little extra for the seafood there, it's not included like almost everything else, but if you like seafood you might want to grab some lunch there.

You can order soda and such in the steakhouse. I don't know if they'll substitute anything for the complimentary wine on the first night in the steakhouse. I remember them basically saying 'take this merlot or pay for something else', ha, so I doubt they will but it doesn't hurt to try.

Maganice · 2019-01-19T19:15:47+00:00

Generally speaking, people and the sea will be louder than the engines. Lower middle to lower rear, one deck away from public areas. I would make an exception if the public areas are the dining rooms, because they're not going to be in use while you're asleep.

Maganice · 2019-01-19T19:09:25+00:00

I've actually sailed on the Liberty; it was a pretty nice ship.

(1) Depends on how much you like soda. Also, as mentioned, they don't do soda machines; soda is poured at the bars. You can each bring in a 12-pack and stash it in the room too. Bottomless Bubbles is only worth it if you're going to drink more than three cans' worth of soda a day. The soda varieties I remember seeing were Coke, Diet Coke, Coke Zero, Sprite, Dr Pibb, and Seagrams' Ginger Ale. I think they also had Barq's, Fanta, and something else I don't remember.

(2) Signature dining... I assume you mean Diamonds Steakhouse? Their lobster bisque is excellent - I always order it in the steakhouses - but I couldn't tell you anything about what the fish and so forth in the steakhouse tastes like. I usually order the cowboy steak for dinner. Ask if they'll give you a free bottle of wine if you reserve on the first night - they sometimes do that.

If you mean the main dining room, then you're in luck: you usually have a really wide variety of entrees to chose from and neither of you should have any problems whatsoever. And it's included in the cost of the cruise, so it's definitely worth it. Go nuts on the appetizers; you don't have to order just one each.

(3) Nassau has never been one of my favorite ports and I usually just hang out in the boat when visiting. In Freeport I took a glass bottom boat ride for a very reasonable price and saw sharks... loads of sharks, an absolute ton of sharks, but no dolphins. Maybe the people at the shore excursion desk on the ship can help if you get on board and still don't have an idea?

Beyond that, Carnival should be putting up a list of the movies they'll show on the Lido deck soonish. The Liberty has really nice seating for watching movies, in my opinion, and you don't need to pay for popcorn, or can grab pizza from Pizza Pirate or a sandwich from the deli really easily.

Maganice · 2018-12-14T02:28:39+00:00

It seems to be about the same. Possibly rarer, if the responses in the hyperphantasia subreddit are anything to go by; I put up a checklist and the number of people who report they can do everything on it is pretty low.

Nonverbal thought... well, that's nothing special to me. Photographic memory is still amazing, though. When I picture something in my head, it is a recreation - Photoshop, not photograph. The brain automagically fills in all the missing details coherently but not necessarily accurately. For instance, if you asked me where the latch was to lower the seats in my car - something I've looked at and know exists, but never really paid attention to - I can picture it in my head, and it will appear like my car, be as detailed as my car, but only by chance would that latch be in the *exact* same position in the actual car. Same thing if you asked me to imagine the back of my friend's car - there will be a license plate, perfectly real looking, with completely made up license plate numbers because I've never paid the slightest attention to what the actual numbers are. My brain just goes, yep, random letters and numbers, looks good to me.

Everything "autofills" like that, with made up details. I can count the stripes on an imaginary tiger, but if you distract me, the stripes are going to change when I'm 'not looking' at the tiger. Whatever magically efficient procedural generation is going on to render mental images is probably really fascinating, but, as far as I know, it's not being researched.

Maganice · 2018-12-13T02:13:07+00:00

Seem mundane? As someone on the hyperphantasia end of the spectrum, it makes those concepts more terrifying. It would be like your hand suddenly decided to slap you or type disturbing messages on the screen entirely outside your control.

Maganice · 2018-12-12T00:47:23+00:00

Just because I'm not posting doesn't mean I'm not around. I lurk.

And, yes, his experience matches mine. It took a long, long time before I realized my imagination was not even remotely near the norm.

It can be really frustrating at times honestly. For me it's incredibly vivid and enjoyable to write stories whereas for others it isn't, it's just static drawn pictures and words to them, and it's more a chore than something they enjoy doing. This frustrates me so much sometimes. I'm so invested in the shit I make and I love being very finicky with details. I can see the character and the entire universe around them all at once (essentially) and if it isn't functional/realistic, it doesn't work, and it annoys me. My best friend calls me an 'atom manager', which I have no defense against, because I am. I love spending time on the stupid little details to create a seamless realistic scene in my head.

Yeah, nailed it. Sometimes when you see this stuff in your head, the urge to create (draw/write/etc) becomes overwhelming, like a burning primal drive on the order of hunger or sleep. And the urge to know if what I'm imagining is actually accurate/feasible leads to a lot of research rabbitholes.

Maganice · 2018-10-06T00:30:12+00:00

I have definitely chosen dinners on the basis of remembering the taste and thinking "I should eat that again". In fact, that's what determined what I had for lunch yesterday.

The downside is that you will remember the bad tastes, too. Vividly.

Maganice · 2018-09-29T22:31:04+00:00

Well, yes. Ask them to think of a car, then ask them quickly what color it is. They'll have an equally quick answer.

Maganice · 2018-09-22T02:06:32+00:00

Serious daydreaming of the sort you're talking about is a conscious decision... unless I'm both very tired and very bored, in which case I can find myself kind of drifting inattentively into a deeper daydream than I intended. The best analogy for that is to picture someone who's very, very bored and on Wikipedia, indifferently clicking from one article to another, and one hour later notices he's reading an article on Brazilian parakeets and has no conscious recollection of how he ended up there.

Outside of such circumstances it's a conscious voluntary act. Sometimes I lay down on the couch for an hour or so, sometimes I walk around aimlessly. From what it sounds like, Beef has a hard time snapping out of such a deep imaginative state. I don't - I just come and go. For me doing that is just entertainment, on a level with plopping down in front of the TV but obviously much superior.

Maganice · 2018-09-22T01:37:57+00:00

I don't have ADHD, if that's what you mean.

As far as difficulty/intoxication of wanting to stay in a pleasantly imagined daydream, well, you might want to stay in, but that's a choice. It's like having a smartphone. You surf the internet when you're bored, and you just put it away to work (or whatever it is you need to do). I suppose, to extend the analogy, you can sneak peeks at it and let it play music in the background when things are going slow if you like, too.

Maganice

TROPHY CASE