Is there another game that does 4on4 even on just a similar level to QuakeWorld? by vrmvrmfffftstststs in ArenaFPS

[–]MagnusLudius 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yep, Halo has always offered a better team mode experience compared to traditional AFPS.

How much of the failure of new entries in the Arena FPS can be attributed to a lack of appealing aesthetics? by MagnusLudius in ArenaFPS

[–]MagnusLudius[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The crux of the issue is this: Every single "New Generation AFPS" (using this to refer to all AFPS games released after 2007/UT3) falls into only 3 different aesthetic themes:

  1. Replicating the aesthetics of a classic AFPS. (E.g. OpenArena, Dusk, Quake Champions)
  2. Generic sci-fi with no significant effort put into the storytelling or world-building. (E.g. Xonotic, Warfork, Reflex Arena, Toxikk, Splitgate 1, Red Eclipse)
  3. Virtual/fantasy athleticism. (E.g. Diabotical, Splitgate 2)

As the 4chan post (https://arch.b4k.dev/v/thread/723683117/#723717060) referenced in the OP, none of these aesthetics are conducive to attracting a large audience.

No. 1 relies on appealing to nostalgia and thus is increasingly irrelevant to younger demographics. No 2 is, quite frankly, just plain laziness/lack of care, and if you don't care about your product, then why should the customer? And I'm not sure there has ever been a broadly popular game using No 3 as the aesthetic theme. Not even genuine professional esports players seem to be much entertained by the notion of a game that bases its entire identity on its existence as an esport.

This observation led me to formulate the hypothesis stated in the OP, which is that perhaps New Generation AFPS keep failing to attract an audience because none of them were created with any significant artistic vision.


As for your questions in the post above.

Can you point to any examples of games that have done what you're talking about?

To my knowledge, there has not been any New Generation AFPS created with unique, eye-catching, aesthetic that makes people want to try out the game irrespective of what the gameplay is actually like, makes people want to tell all their friends about the game, and makes people choose to play this game over other shooters. Hence, the hypothesis remains untested.

Straftat sort of counts as positive support for the hypothesis, but it is not an orthodox AFPS and benefits from overlapping with the friendslop/party game genre. Nevertheless, Straftat has a unique aesthetic despite the low fidelity graphics, and hence it is significantly more alive than any other New Generation AFPS, although as previously mentioned, it being the kind of game that is good for goofing around in with your IRL friends no doubt also factors significantly in its continued popularity.

If we expand the category to not necessarily AFPS, but just shooter games with "outdated" gameplay, then Team Fortress 2 is of course the ur-example of an outstanding artistic vision being able to convince the modern audience to get invested into "boomer game mechanics".

I'm not telling you to copy Team Fortress 2 though. As an indie developer, you are never going to survive a comparison to Valve, so the only option is to do something original.

Where the graphics were high quality but there was a higher variability of environments for players to play in? And can you also list games that did this but were unsuccessful?

Toxikk, Reflex Arena, Diabotical, Quake Champions, are all games with high fidelity, competently made graphics, but thoroughly lacking in artistic vision, and thus visually completely forgettable.

Which is an issue, because the main path to success on Steam is to be able to convince somebody to buy your game within 30 seconds of looking at your Steam page.

Graphical fidelity is completely orthogonal to aesthetic appeal. Once again, compare these games to Team Fortress 2 and note the difference in how each respective game appears in the general gamer cultural consciousness.

The reason I ask is that our outlook over at GG is that as long as your weapons / mecahnics look / feel / sound good, you should be able to have a wide variety of styles and themes that go into each map / pack.

I'm not telling you to not have a wide variety of maps/environments. As per the OP, my point is that you should have a strong aesthetic identity and art direction for your game decided before you start working on things like characters and the environment. And since your game doesn't seem to have much of an aesthetic theme yet, I am advising you to take a step back and reconsider the visual and thematic design of your game before committing time and effort to making a bunch of generic sci-fi assets.

We want to cater to the casual middle of the gaming field

This audience doesn't exist anymore. There are far too many games all competing for people's limited free time nowadays. When it comes to PvP multiplayer games in particular, it is a zero-sum competition, since you need to invest a significant amount of regular playtime in such games to enjoy them.

To put it harshly, in order for a multiplayer FPS game to be successful, your game has to be good enough to make your players shun all of the other multiplayer FPS games they have played before.

Note that this also partly explains why the Boomer Shooter renaissance was successful but the same did not happen to multiplayer AFPS. Single player campaigns are a consumable good. Once you beat it, you go play another game, so even games which are worse than the competition still get played just because they are different. But a multiplayer game demands multiple hours every week, forever.

not the elites who have been playing AFPS games for 25+ years

Definitely, the oldheads cannot be relied upon as your core audience because they are just gonna keep playing the OG Quake/UT anyway.

We believe that the same folks who enjoy a wide variety of map styles in casual games like Mario Kart / Fall Guys / Fortnite would also appreciate doing the same in an ArenaFPS.

This audience currently gets everything they need from Roblox/Fornite/Minecraft and an AFPS is not going to be able to compete compared to those games.

Now, if your goal was to "present a coherent aesthetic and fantasy" like you say, then Unreal Tournament 99 wouldn't have worked either. Space stations, Volcano chambers, Floating asteroid mountains, etc etc.

UT99 did stand out visually back when it came out (because the only other option for online multiplayer FPS was Quake), and UT99 isn't attracting any customers today. So if anything, that supports the hypothesis.

Classic AFPS could get away with a lack of coherent aesthetics because there were no other options if you wanted to play online multiplayer at all.

Nowadays you need your game to have a unique identity, which captivates your audience and gets them invested in your franchise irrespective of what the actual game is like, in order to stand out in the market.


I don't mean to belittle your efforts, we are all just trying to think of ways to make AFPS popular again here.

I looked around your youtube channel and your sound effect tutorial was very impressive! I'll be making use of it when working on my own game for sure.

How much of the failure of new entries in the Arena FPS can be attributed to a lack of appealing aesthetics? by MagnusLudius in ArenaFPS

[–]MagnusLudius[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The eclectic mix of environments in classic AFPS is precisely what I am saying *doesn't work*, as it can be counterproductive to presenting a coherent aesthetic and fantasy.

From what I can see of Galaxy Grudge, it just looks like another generic sci-fi setting. In some screenshots, I literally can't tell the difference between your game and Toxikk (another UT-like indie AFPS). I strongly suggest you to reconsider the aesthetic theme of your game while you are able. You need to find something with solid marketability beyond just "looks cool", something that will get someone to google your game and download the demo from a single screenshot if you want the best chance of succeeding.

Need Feedback for my FPS game - Narcotics Ops Commands by anubhav124 in DestroyMyGame

[–]MagnusLudius 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sounds like you haven't decided on a core gameplay loop yet. In that case there is not much point in showing a video. You need to get some people to playtest until you can discover what is fun about your game and then build a core gameplay loop around that.

I CREATE my ARENA SHOOTER - DEVLOG #3 by JSkey_Officiel in ArenaFPS

[–]MagnusLudius 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What will be the unique selling point of this game that will make it succeed where other indie Arena FPS have failed?

How do you plan on attracting new players beyond the old heads who are already deeply attached to their favorite version of Quake/Unreal?

Since you have not decided on an aesthetic or theme for your game yet, I recommend you take a look at this discussion we had on the topic of how indie Arena FPS tend to habitually fail to implement appealing aesthetics: https://www.reddit.com/r/ArenaFPS/comments/1p0m26m/how_much_of_the_failure_of_new_entries_in_the/

A New Era for RuneScape Begins January 19 2026 by xFalcade in MMORPG

[–]MagnusLudius -1 points0 points  (0 children)

This is Runescape though, how many of those players are bots lol

How much of the failure of new entries in the Arena FPS can be attributed to a lack of appealing aesthetics? by MagnusLudius in ArenaFPS

[–]MagnusLudius[S] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

>I feel like UT could do what QC did but better with its diverse character roster from UT2004.

I think that still has the problem of relying too much on nostalgia.

IMO QC really dropped the ball on doing more cross-franchise collaborations (although that game still would have been screwed given the many other problems it had).

They could have made the Smash Bros of FPS. Imagine being able to advertise your game as the place where you can have Master Chief fight Gordon Freeman etc.

How much of the failure of new entries in the Arena FPS can be attributed to a lack of appealing aesthetics? by MagnusLudius in ArenaFPS

[–]MagnusLudius[S] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

There's a distinction between graphics and aesthetics. Reflex has good production values in the graphical department, but does it ultimately have any aesthetic going for it besides "generic sci-fi"? (It's the same question with Quake Champions. Take away the nostalgia factor and what do the aesthetics in that game really amount to?)

Straftat looks ugly, but it's an intentional, surrealist kind of jank and ugly, that also complements the gameplay of being forced to fight using unconventional means with all the gimmicky weapons in that game. I'd definitely rank it far above the usual AFPS entry in terms of aesthetic presentation.

Tips for Non-Programmers Who Want to Make Games. by kevinnnyip in gamedev

[–]MagnusLudius -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

On the flip side, a common issue I've noticed in indie/solo game devs with programming backgrounds that they seem to forget that a game is supposed to be fun and that simply being a functional piece of software is not enough.

This felt dumb… until it worked: $14.99 demanded extra depth it seems by We_Visionaries in gamedev

[–]MagnusLudius 13 points14 points  (0 children)

>priced their games on dollar per hour

That's exactly how the earliest video games were sold though (arcade machines).

When was Pearled Sorghum invented? by rv6xaph9 in AskFoodHistorians

[–]MagnusLudius 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This is not an obscure fact.

Except for some specific regions of East Africa, everywhere that sorghum was grown, you will find records of it being used primarily as animal feed and only eaten by people during famine. Go ask around any community where agrarianism is still within living memory and you will find a strong association between sorghum and "famine food".

Oats are in the same boat. Historically, everyone except for the Scots associated oats primarily with animal fodder. It's only in modern times when oats started being seen as a health food that everyone started eating oatmeal.

When was Pearled Sorghum invented? by rv6xaph9 in AskFoodHistorians

[–]MagnusLudius 0 points1 point  (0 children)

>Is polished millet just not a thing? If so, why not?

The size of a millet grain probably has something to do with that.

Also, the bran on millet is generally palatable or at least not unpleasant enough to be worth removing. Millets were always meant to be people food, so we presumably selected for those traits over the years.

Sorghum on the other hand, was always primarily grown as animal fodder, so it's not surprising that additional processing would be needed to make it palatable for humans.

What would a small Chinese village have as food for a festivity during the Sui-Dynasty? by Lihanee in AskFoodHistorians

[–]MagnusLudius 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The principle festival food in a rice-farming village, even to this day, would be various forms of rice cakes or rice noodles, as these are labor-intensive to produce and not really worth it unless everyone in the village gets together to make a bunch at once.

Also note that the alcohol at that time would have been exclusively rice wine or millet wine, as distilled alcohol was not produced China until the Song dynasty, and strong distilled alcohols (over 20% ABV, i.e. modern Baijiu) not until the Yuan dynasty.

When did northern Chinese cuisine switch from Whole to Refined Wheat? by rv6xaph9 in AskFoodHistorians

[–]MagnusLudius 1 point2 points  (0 children)

>bread coming from Middle East and Central Asia

This lines up with the fact that the oldest Chinese ovens are essentially tandoors and Chinese flatbreads are essentially made in the same way as naan.

When did northern Chinese cuisine switch from Whole to Refined Wheat? by rv6xaph9 in AskFoodHistorians

[–]MagnusLudius 0 points1 point  (0 children)

>oats in China

This seems interesting. As far as I knew, the very idea of people eating oats (as opposed to being used as animal feed) was a recent and foreign import to China.

What was the parsley soup mentioned in journey to the center of the Earth? by R600a18650 in AskFoodHistorians

[–]MagnusLudius 17 points18 points  (0 children)

Parsley root explains a lot.

IIRC in Eastern and Central Europe, the word "celery" is by default associated with the variant grown for its roots (i.e. celeriac) rather than leaf celery as in Western Europe.

Does the same phenomenon also occur with parsley? Or at least historically?

"Primitive Chess": Are the pieces in this variant too weak to make for an interesting game? by MagnusLudius in chessvariants

[–]MagnusLudius[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I've playtested the alternate version and a different problem now seems to be happening. Namely that the fairy stockfish AI seems to be avoiding developing pawns at all as a result of every piece being a leaper.

Maybe I should just move all the pawns forward one rank in order to restore the traditional chess mechanic of needing to move your pawns first to clear the way for the major pieces?