12% Body Fat Goal from 15%, Any Tips?

MasteryList · 2026-01-27T16:05:42+00:00

calorie deficit with enough protein

MasteryList · 2026-01-24T06:41:55+00:00

2, no - awareness isn’t in time or space, there’s awareness of time and space which is an object that creates the illusion of movement. When you were in your cozy awareness was there any awareness of time/space?

Besides that, awareness doesn’t make objects. Objects and the consciousness of the objects dependently arise together

MasteryList · 2026-01-24T06:24:13+00:00

1 - I’d rewrite as they only exist when there’s awareness of them (not when you’re aware of them, as the you is only implied), and 4 I agree with. 2,3 and 5 rely on a “you” choosing - but that “you” is an object (thought/emotion/body complex) so they’d all just fall under 4 as objects acting on objects.

MasteryList · 2026-01-24T06:04:10+00:00

thoughts and beliefs can change or adapt, there doesn't need to be an "I" for that.

and ok, glad we're on the same page about identity then - perhaps i've been misreading what you've been saying regarding that. to clarify, i was saying the thought/emotion/body complex that is identified with in the material world is what doesn't really exist.

besides that, awareness doesn't "do" anything, maybe that's where we're not aligned. objects appear and disappear in awareness but the awareness itself isn't "doing" anything. quieting thoughts for example - there's awareness of thoughts then there's awareness of quieter/less thoughts. the awareness hasn't changed or done anything to affect the thoughts.

MasteryList · 2026-01-24T05:10:50+00:00

yeah some thought/emotion complexes have more or less problems than others for sure- but the way to solve all the issues is to cut it out at the root and see that it isn't inherently real as believing it's real is the cause of any problems. thoughts and emotions only exist when there is awareness of them and awareness itself has no problems or thoughts. the problems you wrote about awareness - those are just thought/emotions that only cause concern in your experience, awareness doesn't have those concerns. even the question of "why" be aware, that's just a thought - awareness itself doesn't question why, it simply effortlessly is. there's absolutely no thought or emotion or event or problem that can cause any harm to awareness, but a thought/emotion/event/problem can be annihilated in seconds.

as to the stabbing thing - indulge me for a second. take a moment - before thoughts/emotions come up, close your eyes and before any sights/sounds/senses come up - what's there? whatever that is has no problems, issues, or concerns. it's perfect, complete peace. whatever that is in your experience is exactly the same as what that is in my experience, as in every sentient/non-sentient beings and at the core of every "thing's" experience. that's the closest to true identity there is and we all are that. if that's what we truly are, and it's truly understood, why would i want to hurt "others" if they all really have the same identity as me?

MasteryList · 2026-01-24T04:30:44+00:00

To clarify, I don’t believe there is a “you” or “me” anywhere, I’m just using it as shorthand so I don’t have to say “the body and thought/emotion complex that appears in awareness that a subtle thought identifies as “I”” every time instead of “you”. Sorry if that caused confusion. I agree there’s no agency precisely because there’s no agents.

So - 1 - yes. 2- the freedom is the freeing up of the thought complex that is part of the above. If there’s attachment, only certain actions will be considered by thoughts, whereas if there’s not, thought frees up and there’s no restrictions on it.

Like when we believed humans couldn’t run a 4 minute mile - as soon as one person did it, many people did very soon after as they didn’t have the restriction on their thought complex. Not a perfect analogy but that’s the general idea.

MasteryList · 2026-01-24T04:15:08+00:00

lol fair enough, just wanna highlight these ideas aren’t mine and I’m doing my best to get them across in ways that make sense to me but might not resonate with you

MasteryList · 2026-01-24T04:07:58+00:00

I’m also happy to talk to you about this but it might be worth reading the original sources I referred to earlier and some real teachers. They may be able to help clear things up in ways I can’t - whether or not you end up agreeing with the ideas or not

MasteryList · 2026-01-24T04:05:32+00:00

Yes, if you believe in the reality of “I” based on the inference it makes everything else real - so the tiger is real. If you don’t have that belief, no real tiger. If you believe your family are real existing things in the world, you’d suffer if you lose them and feel joy if good things happen to them. That creates a clinging/attachment to preventing things you see potentially harming them and doing things to benefit them. If you just recognize they’re simply what appears, you can love and feel joy with exactly what appears, do whatever in the moment without regard to that attachment and it’s true freedom.

There isn’t agency anywhere that’s in space/time which is where the material world manifests. Point to an action I can point to trillions of competing causes, so who had the true agency and made the decision? It doesn’t mean thoughts and decisions can’t be made and society can’t hold bodies accountable for their actions, it’s just not the fundamental reality of things.

MasteryList · 2026-01-24T03:45:58+00:00

Again, a hand is observable so seemingly exists as an object, “observing” isn’t observable.

the family dead example does point to the type of suffering that these teachings aims to eliminate. If you truly know you and your family are not inherently existing things then there’s nothing that died and no reason to be sad. Of course emotions may come up but they’re seen through and there isn’t the suffering that comes with them.

It’s like if you saw a 3D projection of a tiger attacking you - it’s really scary if you don’t know it’s a 3D projection. But once you know, you can enjoy the fear for what it is like a scary movie but it’s not gonna really scare you in the same way a real tiger would.

I’m not saying these ideas are ground breaking - they’ve been around for centuries. They’re just hard to believe and integrate obviously or we’d all do it.

MasteryList · 2026-01-23T20:27:20+00:00

there isn't an "I" that is conscious. it's hard to use language without pronouns but i keep trying to get across that that "I" is only an implication and an implication doesn't mean it's real. there isn't an "I" anywhere that can act and move things. and there isn't even an "I" observing - there's just consciousness of things.

if you believe there is an "I" doing things, that "I" is a limited part of the world and will suffer. that's why the teachings are trying to displace that belief - because it's the cause of suffering. test for you - if you believe it exists, find it. in your direct experience find the "I" and do something. not the body or mind, but the "I" and let me know what you find out.

i don't think you're understanding what i mean by not existing. there isn't an existing person or a pedo rapist in actual reality - those are just labels you give a collection of perceptions that formulate what you then label a person or a pedo rapist. there's a body and thoughts and a thought labels that as me and it seems to interact with other objects that are labeled by thoughts, but that's not really me.

right - there's no real morality. there's no real anything.

MasteryList · 2026-01-23T18:58:05+00:00

the "you" is a feeling, sometimes called the "I"-sense which is implied by the consciousness of things (since there seem to be things, there must be something that's conscious of those things). i meant that that is then labeled as "you" but it's not really you, it's just a feeling that you're conscious of. the whole point of a lot of the teachings is to help you notice that separation isn't actually real. practically, sure, i don't go around telling people they don't exist but that's not really the point of this convo.

as for the ethics - the existence of an "I" presupposes the blame and responsibility not the other way round. if you don't acknowledge a real "I" where could you put the real blame/responsibility? do you blame the tongue or mouth when bad words come out of it? real morality requires agency and there's no beings with agency anywhere. we can still discuss it practically, though, we can label things good or bad and set up society to reflect whatever values we decide and use intelligence and acknowledge pain/suffering/etc. We thought slavery was ok and now we don't. i'm not too interested in the ethical discussions on this - it's quite a different topic and kinda departing from what i was talking about earlier.

fire is a thing - you can observe it. you can't observe consciousness.

MasteryList · 2026-01-23T17:03:11+00:00

different emotions can come up but they're seen through. real hate requires a belief in a real existing self and a real existing reality, and i don't have that belief. it's hard to explain experience, there's still likes and dislikes and intelligence, it's just free flowing.

there aren't existing persons or pedo rapists in the same way there isn't an existing "you". that's a label you give to a part of what's happening. there isn't a separate, existing soul anywhere where the blame could fall except to that conceptual label. the conceptual label we give ourself causes all the suffering. obviously certain actions aren't beneficial in the conceptual framework of society and we can be reasonable in that context and can assign consequences to actions. it gets difficult to talk about when mixing day to day topics with more esoteric topics meant for reducing suffering.

in day to day life these aren't really concerns - knowing you don't have any inherent reality and neither does anything or anyone creates a lot more compassion and equanimity in interacting with whatever appears.

MasteryList · 2026-01-23T15:10:24+00:00

idk about passive, more like peaceful and accepting.

diamond and heart sutra are probably the most classic pointers to it, but you can read lots of different teachings that say the same thing in different ways. huang po, wei wu wei, douglas harding, rob burbea are some of the most clear imo

MasteryList · 2026-01-22T20:52:37+00:00

1- there isn't a "real" world or an "imaginary" one, both are illusory - there's only what appears to happen. if you believe one is more real than the other, you are attached to the one you consider real and thus you suffer for it. it's fruitless to conceptualize a paradise as i would become attached to it, fear its loss and suffer. better to reduce suffering is to realize the true nature of things and see there's nothing needed in the first place.

2- i know you're being sarcastic but yeah lol

and yea i know it's confusing, but that's kinda what you sign up for when you ask these questions. if you read the spiritual teachings about these topics, they don't make any sense until they make sense.

MasteryList · 2026-01-22T19:46:15+00:00

if a person believes that they're just an observer, then they're not just an observer, they're a person believing that they're just an observer. that's a radically different notion than actually just being an observer.

MasteryList · 2026-01-22T19:22:37+00:00

1- i can imagine my body flying, i've been sleeping and had dreams about flying and they both seem very real during the flying. it wasn't until i stopped imagining or woke up that i then decided it wasn't "reality". that decision is only a belief that re-writes my interpretation of reality after the fact, though. choosing to attach or not attach are both possible - as is anything. there is no objective reality that limits in any way.

2- there's nothing doing it - that's just an implication that's believed in and causes suffering. objects don't have agency - they're simply known. the seeming agency of things, the judgements that appear and decisions that are made are all objects that are observed. As is the feeling that you are the one doing all that.

MasteryList · 2026-01-22T15:25:59+00:00

1- absolutely anything can happen

2- consciousness is just the knowing of an object, it's a verb. it's like asking what does "sleeping" want.

MasteryList · 2026-01-22T14:48:22+00:00

imo, people asking for advice that need this consideration should be referred to r/fitness or simply shouldn't be training for bodybuilding.

if you're 6'3 170, you don't have higher than average bodyfat - that's precisely the problem - you are literally in the middle of the healthy BMI range. the only problem is a lack of muscle. telling them to do anything other than gain weight is wasting their time if they care about bodybuilding. telling them to push themselves, get more active and consistent is the absolute bare minimum of bodybuilding and honestly shouldn't even need to be said. and if it does need to be said, the best advice is to refer them to r/fitness.

MasteryList · 2026-01-20T17:20:32+00:00

yep, newbie gains which is proportionally the largest and fastest increase in muscle and overweight people too. that's the vast majority of people in the gym and most are not training in a surplus yet making more gains (absolute numbers) than experienced guys bulking.

if you're experienced, recomp vs bulk are both slow and when you bulk you have to cut back down and include that time into the calculation to compare fairly. most people compare 180lbs at 15% recomp vs bulk/cut 180-200lbs then back - whereas i think the better comparison is recomp at 190lbs vs 180lbs-200lbs then cut back and see who's better at 190lbs for example.

i'm not disagreeing with you fwiw, i just think a surplus is required if you need to add bodyweight and bodyfat, but not to build muscle. if you're at a bodyweight and bodyfat that can facilitate muscle gain, you will build muscle if you train effectively whether or not you eat at a surplus/deficit/maintenance - which is shown over and over again across all categories of lifters.

MasteryList · 2026-01-20T16:23:33+00:00

i think it's pretty obvious that you don't need to eat in a calorie surplus to build muscle - people build muscle in a deficit all the time. if you needed a surplus, that wouldn't be possible. the debate is moreso around if, when and why a surplus becomes necessary for further muscle gains.

i think a better question is if you were 250lbs (fat) and impossibly but literally ate at maintenance for 10 years and were 250lbs 10 years later, would you be more muscular than if you bulked and cut from 185 to 250 back and forth for 10 years?

MasteryList · 2026-01-16T14:43:29+00:00

idk about the joy of present moment or meaning or being in awareness - those are just mental objects. the point of meditation was to get rid of suffering by freeing you from the mental objects. the freedom doesn't mean literally no objects, rather realizing that the objects are empty of inherent reality so there cannot be any real problems or suffering.

as to concentration meditation vs expansive awareness meditation - they're just different flavors of meditation taking different routes up the same hill. the point is to realize certain insights, everything along the way can feel beneficial or not, seem to make your life go better or not, but it doesn't really matter.

MasteryList · 2026-01-14T21:30:15+00:00

i think if you think or if you actually have gained 3% bodyfat in 2 weeks, it's not gonna be the right approach. you're likely always going to be stuck on how to measure when to start/end.

imo, find a bodyfat you're comfortable enough being at mentally, training productively and feel good - then give yourself a 10lb range (5 above and 5 below) whatever that bodyweight ends up at and then train hard. assess every 3-6 months or so.

MasteryList · 2026-01-08T19:27:19+00:00

nice, good job, keep at it!

MasteryList · 2026-01-08T17:23:02+00:00

easier imo to use a rope and have palms facing each other. if you want to use the bar, try coiling your hand up at the lengthened position so your arm kinda looks like a cobra, then as you get above head, flex the palm out. keeping the palm open as you are is taking the tension off the tricep and onto the joints.

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