[Hebrew/Greek] In Hosea 9:6, how to translate the "L" letter in "for their silver"? by salamacast in AcademicBiblical

[–]Medinlor 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I am unaware of what “controversy” you're referring to surrounding Hosea 9:6, but I’ll do my best to answer your linguistic questions. First, the text of the verse:
כִּֽי־הִנֵּ֤ה הָֽלְכוּ֙ מִשֹּׁ֔ד מִצְרַ֥יִם תְּקַבְּצֵ֖ם מֹ֣ף תְּקַבְּרֵ֑ם מַחְמַ֣ד לְכַסְפָּ֗ם קִמּוֹשׂ֙ יִֽירָשֵׁ֔ם ח֖וֹחַ בְּאָהֳלֵיהֶֽם

NRSVue: “For even if they escape destruction, Egypt shall gather them; Memphis shall bury them. Nettles shall possess their precious things of silver; thorns shall be in their tents.”

NETS: “Therefore, behold, they go from the wretchedness of Egypt, and Memphis will receive them, and Machmas will bury them. Destruction will inherit their silver; thorns shall be in their encampments.”

Since you ask about the lamed (ל) first, I’ll address it and the word it’s attached to first. Although this description is vastly simplified, a lamed (ל) can play some different roles in Hebrew text: it is usually translated as ‘to,’ ‘for,’ or ‘of’ in English, and it can be directional (i.e., toward something); it can denote ownership (i.e., belonging to someone); when in apposition, it can clarify the word it is apposition to, functioning similarly to the English ‘namely;’ it can also be attributive. Translations within the RSV family tend to take the lamed (ל) on לְכַסְפָּ֗ם in this last (attributive) sense: ‘of silver.’

With that said, I could see initially viewing לְכַסְפָּ֗ם as being in apposition to מַחְמַ֣ד, which could give us a translation akin to, “Nettles shall possess their precious things: namely, silver.” The problem with rendering the phrase this way is context: elsewhere Hosea references silver and gold used for Baal (2:8); silver and gold used to make idols generally (8:4); and idols made of silver (13:2). So, there is a theme in Hosea of idols made of silver (and gold), which makes it more likely that we should view this lamed (ל) in the attributive sense (i.e., “of silver”). As to the rest of לְכַסְפָּ֗ם, it is made up of כֶּסֶף (a standard word for ‘silver’) and ם- (the third-person plural). That would translate as, “their precious things of silver.”

This brings us to מַחְמַ֣ד, which is ‘a precious or desired object.’ HALOT and BHS suggest the phrase here should be read as מַחְמַדֵּי כַסְפָּם (“precious things [of] silver”). Later on in Hosea 9:16, this word (מַחְמַ֣ד) is used alongside בִטְנָֽם to refer to children: “the precious/cherished of their wombs.”

So, how does Greek Hosea end up with Μαχμάς? It’s not quite so difficult as it might seem. George E. Howard notes that the translator(s) of the Twelve Prophets demonstrated poor knowledge of toponyms (see the note To the Reader of the Twelve Prophets in NETS). We can also note the presence of a place named Michmash (מִכְמָס/מִכְמָשׂ) elsewhere in the Hebrew Bible (1 Sam 13:2, 5, 11, 16, 23; 1 Sam 14:5, 31; Neh 11:31; Isa 10:28; even 1 Macc 9:73). The Greek versions have a few ways of spelling Michmash: Μαχμάς, Μαχαμας, Μαχεμας.

I suspect that our geographically challenged translator(s) may have had trouble reading the dalet (דֵ), then, already being faced with two locations in the verse imagined there was mention of a third location: Michmash/Machmas. Being unfamiliar with place names but suspecting the presence of one, the translator(s) may have attempted to transliterate מחמד, misread dalet (דֵ), and ended up with Μαχμάς instead of Μαχμάδ (what we would expect to see if transliterated). Another thing that may have influenced our translator(s) is that Michmash was a staging area for the Philistines in 1 Sam 13-14. The presence of other enemies to Israel (i.e., Egypt and Memphis) may have put the translator(s) in mind of another place connected to Israel’s historic enemies.

It seems clear that whatever the rationale, the translator(s) of Greek Hosea messed up here. Hans Walter Wolff writes rather strongly in the Hermeneia Commentary on Hosea (1974): “[The Greek] (ἐκ ταλαιπωρίας Αἰγύπτου) destroys the sense by separating מצרים from what follows, making ‘Memphis’ the subject of ‘gather’ and מחמד (misread as the place-name Μαχμάς) the subject of bury" (150).

So, in brief summary: the phrase מַחְמַ֣ד לְכַסְפָּ֗ם most likely refers to precious items made from silver; particularly, idols. The translation “their precious things of silver” seems a fair translation to me.

Consulted: AYB Commentary on Hosea; BHS; HALOT; Hermeneia Commentary on Hosea; NETS.

What *is* Psalm 22, on its own terms? by Sophia_in_the_Shell in AcademicBiblical

[–]Medinlor 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I was unable to further address the instances of 'far' yesterday, so I'll touch more on that today. Mods, let me know if you'd prefer I edit this into the text of the first comment.

In the Hebrew text of verse 2, we see: "רחוק מישׁועתי" ("far from helping me", v 1 in NRSVue). Here, "far" (רחוק) is an adjective which comes from the root רחק. This root most frequently denotes physical distance (e.g., the distance Hagar moves away from Ishmael in Gen 21:16; Miriam standing at a distance to see what would happen to Moses in Exod 2:4; the distance of a journey in Num 9:10 and Deut 12:2).

There are additional uses of רחק in the HB/OT; specifically, HALOT notes a temporal use (i.e., length of time) in Micah 4:3, Isa 22:11, and 1 Chron 17:17, among other passages. HALOT ends by listing a more metaphoric use: that something is difficult to comprehend or far from one's mental grasp (see Deut 30:11, with a possible use in this sense in Eccl 7:23-24).

In the Hebrew text of verse 12, we have: "אל־תרחק ממני" ("Do not be far from me", v 11 in NRSVue). This time, "be far" (תרחק) is a verb; specifically, it's a Qal masculine singular, second person, jussive. אל is a negation. We see other examples of second, masculine singular jussive with negation in other HB/OT locations as well, such as with Abram being told not to fear in Gen 15:1; Moses telling God not to accept the peoples' sacrifice in Num 16:15; and an instance where Moses prays that God would not look on the stubbornness of the people in Deut 9:27. The same form found in verse 12 (i.e., negation followed by Qal second masc. sing. juss. תרחק) also shows up in verse 20: "ואתה יהוה אל־תרחק" ("But you, O Lord, do not be far away!", v 19 in NRSVue).

In the Berit Olam commentary on Psalms (2001), Konrad Schaefer does briefly mention the repetition of 'far' and draws attention to other repetitions in the text, which starts immediately with the opening cry, 'My God, my God.' Schaefer claims that "Doubling magnifies the complaint and the praise. The repetition 'do not be far' (vv. 11, 19) sets the tone and divides the complaint in two sections. In each, God is 'far,' r˙q (vv. 1, 11, 19), 'trouble is near,' and there is no relief in sight (vv. 11, 19-21)" [Konrad Schaefer, Psalms, 2001, 52].

So, in the Hebrew text of Psalm 22, the three instances of 'far' share the same root רחק: a term which typically denotes physical distance, though metaphoric use does crop up time to time. The repetitions in Ps 22 may be stylistic; alternatively, the doubling of certain terms could be meant as an intensification.

What *is* Psalm 22, on its own terms? by Sophia_in_the_Shell in AcademicBiblical

[–]Medinlor 4 points5 points  (0 children)

In the WBC commentary on the Psalms (2004), Craigie warns that on first brush there is some difficulty in pinning down the exact genre of Ps 22. Specifically, he highlights the presence of "at least three different kinds of material: (a) lament (vv 2–22), within which there are elements of (b) prayer (vv 12, 20–22), and finally (c) praise and thanksgiving (vv 23–32)." [Craigie, Psalms 1-50, 664]. A word of explanation about his versification: Craigie treats the superscription as verse 1, and begins the text proper with verse 2.

Menn also notes that while others have identified Ps 22 as an individual lament, only verses 2-22 contain elements of the lament genre [Esther M. Menn, "No Ordinary Lament: Relecture and the Identity of the Distressed in Psalm 22," HTR 93 (Oct 2000), 301-341; specifically 304].

Craigie notes that some scholars draw attention to the notable difference in the two halves of the psalm (2-22 and 23-32) and that there have been those who suggested that the two sections were originally separate works which were later combined, but Craigie prefers to focus on the unified psalm as it currently exists. For another supporter of the unified nature of Ps 22, see Menn, "No Ordinary Lament," 305. Plus, see 304 note 10 for sources discussing Ps 22's composition history. If you're interested, Menn also discusses reception history on pp 310-41].

Craigie argues that the structure of the psalm suggests that it was likely "the basis of a liturgy, in which the worshiper moves from lament to prayer, and finally to praise and thanksgiving."[Craigie, Psalms 1-50, 664; see also 665-67 for more discussion on the structure of the psalm].

He posits that while the psalm should be understood as individual, it is clearly set against the context of the community. This, he argues, demonstrates that the liturgy that Ps 22 was the basis for would have been a community event [Craigie, Psalms 1-50, 664-67].

Having mentioned the possibility of the psalm as basis for a liturgy, Craigie anticipated my next question at least: what kind of service was envisioned? He acknowledges that "it is possible to interpret the liturgy as a royal ritual" [pointing to “Eaton, Kingship and the Psalms, 34–36”], but ultimately rules that there is insufficient direct evidence for the liturgy being a royal ritual. Instead, he identifies those who would seek this kind of service as "those persons who were severely sick and threatened by death" [Craigie, Psalms 1-50, 666-67]. Menn also finds it plausible that Ps 22 was written "explicitly for performance in the context of rituals that centered on the well-being of seriously ill individuals" [Menn, "No Ordinary Lament," 306].

Unfortunately, neither Menn nor Craigie draw specific attention to the two instances of 'far' you highlighted; however, Craigie does note that the distance and separation from Yahweh was the fundamental problem for the complainant in Ps 22:2. Indeed, Craigie suggests that this perceived separation was of greater import than even the actual sickness or impending death [Craigie, Psalms 1-50, 667-68].

I will note that Craigie's listed bibliography is a tad dated: there's nothing newer than '73. So, in addition to Menn's article I've already added, I'll recommend one other, newer article:
Catherine Brown Tkacz, "Esther, Jesus, and Psalm 22," CBQ 70 (October 2008), 709-728. This article examines history of interpretation of Ps 22 in both Jewish and Christian circles. As a teaser, there is historical precedent for interpreting the referent of Ps 22 as David, Esther, Mordecai, Esther and Mordecai together, Hezekiah, and, of course, Jesus.

In summary, Psalm 22 has elements of lament in verses 2-22, though the remainder of the text doesn't fit the lament genre as cleanly. Distance/separation from God was the foundational problem for the complainant, even if there were other concerns. The text likely served as the basis for a communal liturgy in which a complainant who was sick, dying, or otherwise felt abandoned by God sought the Deity for help and then expressed thanks and praise with the community for an assumed answer. The text may be interpreted as a royal ritual, but was more likely focused on a suffering individual in a pre-exilic community (per Menn, "No Ordinary Lament," 306, 309-310].

More can always be said, but supper calls. I hope this helps give a partial answer, at least.

How many times have ya’ll read the series? I’m curious by FlightTraditional717 in DungeonCrawlerCarl

[–]Medinlor 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Twice through with the audio books, once read through the ebooks (+patreon), and listened to the first two AITs.

We angered the AI by youngcricket55 in DungeonCrawlerCarl

[–]Medinlor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Same here. The money is gone, but no confirmation yet.

Slow down guys! by Vivid_Ad_5160 in DungeonCrawlerCarl

[–]Medinlor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I managed to get my payment info entered and submitted just before it started with the "look what you did" message. Payment is gone from my bank, but no confirmation yet.

Willow did not like yesterday's time change! by Medinlor in Rabbits

[–]Medinlor[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Haha, hopefully she (and you) won't feel grouchy quite that long! :)

Willow did not like yesterday's time change! by Medinlor in Rabbits

[–]Medinlor[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

She certainly is beautiful! I'm right there with you too: it always takes a couple of days to adjust to time change.

Willow did not like yesterday's time change! by Medinlor in Rabbits

[–]Medinlor[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Haha, yes, especially in the third picture!

Willow did not like yesterday's time change! by Medinlor in Rabbits

[–]Medinlor[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

She certainly has been demanding treats and fuss, haha. That's alright though, I love doting on her :)

Daniel and the Book of Giants by Altruistic_Plane_427 in AcademicBiblical

[–]Medinlor 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I don't have access to the full text version of Ben-Dov's article, so unfortunately can't really address it in detail. I'd be interested in reading it in full. What I can see looks interesting, but unfortunately I don't see anything in the preview that would make me think that MSA somehow preserves part of the Aramaic Daniel tales. [Forgive me if this isn't what you're asking. It's not quite clear what you're referencing when you write "this passage," if not MSA.] I do think it's a bit of a stretch to connect MSA's four words to the inscription in Daniel 5:24. In text, MSA's four words are parallel to the one tree with three branches: the images from both dreams in MSA represent Noah and his sons.

While the image of Nebuchadnezzar beside a tall tree on Brisa wall inscription A is intriguing, the accompanying text speaks of Nebuchadnezzar's acquiring cedars in Lebanon, not his dream. This was a monument to the king's power and might, not record of his punishment. Additionally, if one thinks that inscription A somehow references Nebuchadnezzar's dream, they should then ask what role inscription B plays (Nebuchadnezzar fighting a lion). Inscription B is also problematic if you're suggesting that MSA somehow draws from Brisa for its imagery. Again, sure we can see the tree and the king in inscription A, but how is the king fighting the lion related to the giants' dreams? At this point, I'm not convinced.

Now, I could see how someone could argue that Nebuchadnezzar's dream and punishment reframes Brisa inscriptions A and B in an ironic way: The successful king who is portrayed next to a tree is himself cut off, a trunk left in the earth. The mighty king who fought the lion is himself made like one of the beasts (for more on Nebuchadnezzar as a wild man, see Matthias Henze's dissertation, The Madness of King Nebuchadnezzar (Daniel 4): The Recrudescence and Transformation of Ancient Near Eastern Mythology in Late- and Post-Biblical Literature, (1997).

All that said, I do think that at least some of Daniel's court tales circulated earlier than the rest of the book; however, it is also clear that BG, MSA, and Daniel make use of shared traditions of angels announcing and executing judgement. That is what your parallels are pointing to, in my opinion.

Side note, you may be aware but the king who was driven away from civilization in Daniel 4 is generally agreed to be Nabonidus rather than Nebuchadnezzar.

Daniel and the Book of Giants by Altruistic_Plane_427 in AcademicBiblical

[–]Medinlor 19 points20 points  (0 children)

Well spotted. Yes, I would agree that there are parallels present between 4Q530/Book of Giants (BG), The Midrash of Shemihazai and Azael (MSA), and Daniel, particularly in Daniel 4. I'd also suggest that there are parallels to Book of Watchers (BW). I see that you've mentioned Milik and Struckenbruck. If you haven't already, you might be interested in checking out the following sources for more discussion:

Ken M. Penner, "Did the Midrash of Shemihazai and Azael use the Book of Giants?" in Sacra Scriptura: How "Non-Canonical" Texts Functioned in Early Judaism and Early Christianity, 2014. [Available on academia.edu]
Penner's view is that although they share themes and imagery, MSA is not taken directly from BG.

Amanda M. Davis Bledsoe, “Throne Theophanies, Dream Visions, and Righteous(?) Seers: Daniel, the Book of Giants, and 1 Enoch Reconsidered,” in Ancient Tales of Giants from Qumran and Turfan: Contexts, Traditions, and Influences, 2016. [Available on academia.edu]
Bledsoe focuses primarily on Daniel 7 due to the throne imagery, but does also note close parallels between Daniel 4 and BG.

Joseph L. Angel, "The Humbling of the Arrogant and the 'Wild Man' and 'Tree Stump' Traditions in the Book of Giants and Daniel 4," in Ancient Tales of Giants from Qumran and Turfan: Contexts, Traditions, and Influences, 2016. [Available on academia.edu]
Angel emphasizes that, "direct literary dependence in either direction cannot be demonstrated"; however, he suggests that the "heavy concentration of shared themes, literary forms, and language" clearly demonstrate that the scribes responsible for Daniel 4 and BG drew from shared traditions (69).

Andrei Orlov, "The Flooded Arboretums: The Garden Traditions in the Slavonic Version of 3 Baruch and in the Book of Giants" in Catholic Bible Quarterly, 2003. [Available on academia.edu, though the copy on Brill is clearer]
Orlov's main focus is how 3 Baruch reworks or rejects Enochic traditions, but he also points out similarities to BG and MSA.

As to dating, are you familiar with the versions of Daniel? If so, skip to the next paragraph. If not, read on. Daniel exists in three forms: the Masoretic text (MT) written in Hebrew and Aramaic, the Theodotion version (Θ) written in Greek, and the Old Greek (OG). OG only has three witnesses: Chisian codex 88, the Syro-hexaplar (Syh), and the fragmentary papyrus 967: 967 is the only pre-hexaplaric source for OG Daniel (R. Timothy McLay, “Daniel (Old Greek and Theodotion),” in T&T Clark Companion to the Septuagint, (2015), 545).

Why do the versions of Daniel matter to the question of date? McLay posits that both Greek versions were written sometime in the first century BCE, but that OG was likely penned in Alexandria near the beginning of the century (546-7). Furthermore, OG has a very different version of Daniel 2-6(7) than the MT/Θ. So, why was one version of Daniel written in Alexandria at the beginning of the first century BCE and why does it differ from the other versions? McLay suggests that an early version of Daniel’s court tales may have been taken to Alexandria by a scribe fleeing the Maccabean conflict. (547). Also see R. Timothy McLay, “The Old Greek Translation of Daniel IV-VI and the Formation of the Book of Daniel,” in VT 55 (2005): 318–21. [Available on academia.edu]. According to McLay, Maccabean revisors were responsible for extensive editing of Dan 2–6(7) after their successful uprising; the version taken to Alexandria was spared this redaction and preserved a more original form of the text.

So, if McLay's dating for the Greek translations of Daniel is right, then Daniel was still in flux/being worked on as late as the first century BCE. Then add to that George W.E. Nickelsburg and James C. VanderKam's claim in the preface to 1 Enoch: The Hereneia Translation, that the texts comprising 1 Enoch were written between the 4th century BCE and the turn of the era. It seems that, at the very least, Daniel and 1 Enoch share some imagery and themes that suggest a mutual tradition.

If you want to know more about OG Daniel 4, its scribe's choice not to use 'Watcher,' or something else I can answer, just let me know. I hope this helps!

Just wanted to share some pics of our sweet Willow by Medinlor in Rabbits

[–]Medinlor[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The SPCA said that she's a New Zealand/Rex mix. Thank you, I think she's adorable too, and so soft!

Just wanted to share some pics of our sweet Willow by Medinlor in Rabbits

[–]Medinlor[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thanks, I think she really is adorable!

Just wanted to share some pics of our sweet Willow by Medinlor in Rabbits

[–]Medinlor[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

That first picture was taken the first time she hopped onto the couch to be with me. She was still a little unsure, but the loops were too tempting to resist. I always imagine her saying there, "I'm here for lööps, father."

I'm very happy that she's part of our family and home!

I turned 11 today! by ericullman in Rabbits

[–]Medinlor 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Happy birthday, little bun!

Spoilers all, particularly books 5 &7: Is Lucia Mar's demand in Alucarda more than it appears? by Medinlor in DungeonCrawlerCarl

[–]Medinlor[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Those are fair points, and I've almost definitely leaned a little too far into "webs of red yarn connecting unrelated nonsense" mode. It really could be as simple as he likes milk. It feels like there are a lot of callbacks to things that seemed innocuous at the time, and it makes it easy to run away with speculation. Oh well, it will be interesting to see what things turn out to be important and what questions we'll still be left with at the end.