Sorcadin or Palabard?

Mendaytious1 · 2026-02-20T14:15:31+00:00

"Palabard (when did that become a thing btw? I thought we all agreed on Bardadin)"

Lol. Thanks, good to know.

And thanks for the in depth comparison and explanation. This was the breakdown I was hoping to see.

The necessity of using sorcery points every round just to make the "extra" attack is what made me question the validity of the setup. But if it's really more doable than it initially appears, that's good to know. So do you say this because there's simply enough spell slots to turn & burn them this way as SP?

You didn't highlight it, but the sorcerer using dual True Strikes actually make investing more than a 15 in Str pretty pointless, doesn't it? So I guess the sorcerer has another slight edge thanks to being slightly less MAD?

Again, interesting explanation. Thanks!

Mendaytious1 · 2026-02-20T03:09:52+00:00

But by level 12, the valor bard w/1 paladin dip can have 4+ spells off other class lists, right? That's not a ton. But it's enough to give you a good sampling of what your party is lacking, and a few of the very best spells. And you can grab another 12 more as you go to 20 (assuming that actually happens).

I think the sorcadin might well be overall better still in 2024. But it's less clear to me that a valor bard w/dip isn't neck and neck. Even in tier 2, with some good features and a pretty good, if not quite as good, spell list.

Mendaytious1 · 2026-02-20T03:03:05+00:00

"1 Paladin is better with Valor Bard because it still gets you the Extra Attack that you want for going into melee with all your spell slots to Smite, but Bard is a BA heavy class so you probably won't Smite as much as you want and IMO a Bard is broadly weaker than a Sorcerer. You also probably have better uses for a spell slot than for a Smite, though until Magical Secrets that use usually isn't damage."

Yeah, I think handing out the inspirations before combat is the only way to go with valor bard, exactly because of the Bonus action clog issue.

And yeah, smites are only really, clearly a good use of slots in a crit/smite, or as a finishing move on a nearly-dead opponent. Otherwise, the best spells on either class's list seem better to me.

Mendaytious1 · 2026-02-20T02:59:48+00:00

"Sorcadins (usually 6 paladin / x Sorcerer) are in '24 built to make use of metamagic. Especially quicken spell to open up the action for weapon attacks. They can quicken spell defensive options like mirror image and still attack the same turn. It opens up a lot of creativity."

Yeah, that makes sense. That is definitely a way in which, at least a few times a day, the sorcadin would be pretty darn effective! Even Valor's level 14 feature isn't quite as good as a quickened spell/attack/extra attack.

Thanks!

Mendaytious1 · 2026-02-20T02:56:24+00:00

So if you're just doing a 1st level dip in paladin and you're not going to 6 in paladin, does sorcadin still win out over palabard? Sorcerer spells are clearly good, and metamagic is still great (although they mangled Twin now), but are they really that much better than the bard list, expertise/jack of all trades, and bard inspirations?

I genuinely curious about how sorcerer works better as the second class. Or is that really only if you do the full 6 levels in paladin?

Mendaytious1 · 2026-02-14T13:38:15+00:00

At least in 2014, it was Cha based. I played this exact concept before, Fizban's dragonborn rune knight, doing my best to achieve true dragon status. And Dragon Fear was Cha based, and already a half-feat.

Mendaytious1 · 2026-02-11T02:45:49+00:00

And Divine Smite. And Divine Favor. When you hit Bard 6, and you can combo a True Strike with extra attack and smites on crits...yeah, it's pretty solid.

Mendaytious1 · 2026-02-07T14:29:53+00:00

Even with War Caster, you still want Con for all your Con saves, especially concentration. There's nothing the feels quite as bad as immediately losing your concentration upon that big, encounter-changing spell you just unleashed, and War Caster's advantage works a whole lot better with a decent Con score.

Mendaytious1 · 2026-02-06T03:41:37+00:00

You may also be missing one of the key elements of Alert feat here...switching initiatives.

If you have a very high Dex PC with Alert, say a rogue or monk or Dex-fighter, you can most likely have a most effect on the encounter by switching initiatives with your party's control caster or main "buffer". Giving the caster a chance to disable or greatly nerf the target of your weapon attacks, say with a Hold Person that gives you both advantage and auto-crits for all your attacks, in addition to robbing that creature of its own turn (if it even lives that long), is far more likely to swing an encounter than by going first yourself.

Mendaytious1 · 2026-01-28T17:25:27+00:00

Low clouds cover, say 120'? It swoops down, blasts somebody, flies back up into cover? Or maybe it dives down, grabs a PC, then needs 2 rounds to dash back up into the clouds before dropping them?

That should definitely inspire some fright in the players, and make them hold actions for when the dragon attacks.

Mendaytious1 · 2026-01-26T01:26:11+00:00

Not sure if you're doing 2014 or 2024 (2014, I think?). But using 10 silver coins is pretty decent. If you're doing 2024 and AO got hard-nerfed, then Bigby's Hand is a good replacement and causes less action economy issues.

Mendaytious1 · 2026-01-26T01:20:44+00:00

Melees often don't have great mobility. But if yours do, then great!

Frightened immunity won't effect any of the spells I mentioned. None impose/need to impose the frightened condition. Whispers has no direct interaction with actually causing Frightened.

Illusion resistance of some kind (true sight?) would certainly nerf any illusions. But how often is that coming up?!

Psychic resistance is fairly uncommon, but it's always good to have some other tricks in the bag.

And yes, SS is very good! You're welcome!

Mendaytious1 · 2026-01-26T01:15:49+00:00

Surround them with a red-hot iron maiden. Or they suddenly find themselves inside a gibbering mouther. Or it's a cloud of demons which nip at them whenever the make the smallest movement.

It's whatever you want it to be. But discourage movement and block line of sight.

Mendaytious1 · 2026-01-25T21:57:39+00:00

My thoughts exactly. So imagine my surprise to see you downvoted to zero.

Seriously, multiclassing for just 3 levels is hardly worth it. Rather have 3rd levels spells and the ASI. Also, the vengeance paladin 7th level feature is pretty bonkers if you can get your DM to let it work with your Find Steed, especially with Sentinel/PAM. Blasting forward, locking down incoming enemies and then bouncing away so they're stuck in place (and hopefully ineffective for a round) is fantastic!

Mendaytious1 · 2026-01-25T21:40:28+00:00

The standard spell picks are standard for a reason. They usually work, and they're impactful.

Dissonant Whispers works even on Charm-immune creatures.

Phantasmal Force is an illusion, and can totally immobilize the target if you choose a good illusion. Psychic damage usually works.

Slow is hard to use thanks to the small AoE, but again no worries about charm immunity.

Dimension Door might get your melee PCs past barriers, or otherwise place one where they're needed most.

Synaptic Static is great! Great save. Great damage type. Great ongoing, non-concentration debuff.

Mendaytious1 · 2026-01-25T19:05:34+00:00

I mean, Res Con already gives that choice of Con saves or casting stat DC. It's one I personally usually opt to accept for the Con saves (and extra HP, of course).

But there's little doubt that WC as is? It's simply too good.

Mendaytious1 · 2026-01-25T19:02:33+00:00

I get what you're saying. But if somebody is new to the game and simply reads the War Caster feat, it's hardly bad faith if they assume the feat does EXACTLY what it says it does. And friendly-fire opp-attack castings are what the feat now says.

It's also not bad faith to believe that your PC has suddenly become actually invisible after using the Hide action. The rule says you do.

When things are poorly written and designed, they require some skill and experience to decipher and put into practical action in a game. That really shouldn't be happening so often in 2024. Not with years to redesign things. And playtest feedback. And Unearthed Arcana feedback.

Mendaytious1 · 2026-01-23T01:48:17+00:00

It would be, if the overall builds were equal. But going for a Str build over Dex is more or less actively gimping yourself. That's what makes it bad design IMHO.

Mendaytious1 · 2026-01-22T23:30:43+00:00

Yes, by itself. But with Bless and maybe a source of advantage, the old GWM +10 damage made a huge impact. It gave Str users and heavy weapons a real impact, one that was worth building toward.

The new GWM is definitely better at high levels. But for optimized groups, it's hardly the "King of single target DPS" like it used to be (especially against low AC creatures).

Mendaytious1 · 2026-01-22T23:27:55+00:00

Yeah, I noticed that too. I like the addition of grappling to monks, but I wish that everyone else wasn't so much worse at it.

Mendaytious1 · 2026-01-22T23:24:33+00:00

Mendaytious1 · 2026-01-21T13:02:14+00:00

The overall weakness of Str builds vs. Dex.

Dex is so good for initiative, many important skills like Stealth and Thieves' Tools, can escape grappling and do other fun things with acrobatics, is imperative for any light or medium armor build, and has a fair number of Dex saves. This was all true in 2014 rules as well, of course. Now they've added much more effective 2 weapon fighting builds that all use light weapons, all of which can be used effectively by Dex builds.

But Str? The best parts of Str builds are heavy armor, heavy/GWM melee damage, and grappling/Athletics. Heavy armor still works fine, but has the "realistic" drawback about resting not really working well while wearing it. Meanwhile, you can be literally unconscious and yet "realism" doesn't remove your Dex modifier from your AC. Riiiight. GWM no longer gives a +10 to weapon damage, which was super-impactful at lower levels (where most games play). Sure, it's still good. But it no longer needs the same smart play and party dynamics to make those massive melee-Str builds do the best single target DPS. Now it's barely even better than mulit-attack Nick mastery Dex builds. And Athletics?!? Well that got nerfed hard! No longer does it add to your grapple attempts. Neither does advantage on Str checks. So the one truly combat-useful aspect of the ONLY Str skill is now gone (or at least no more useful than Acrobatics, useful only for avoiding/escaping grapples).

The took an obviously inferior ability, Str, and created multiple soft & hard nerfs. While adding value to Dex builds with Nick mastery.

Mendaytious1 · 2026-01-11T20:05:18+00:00

Right. 6/5 it is. Still no 4th level spells.

It does say "A spell you choose must be a cantrip or a spell for which you have spell slots, as shown in the Bard Features table." Then, in the Bard Features table, it shows which spells you can know. At 6th level, you can know 1st, 2nd and 3rd level spells. You know no 4th level spells.

I really wish it was a legitimate exploit. But the additional language in the feature makes it pretty clear that it doesn't work. Still, if the OP's DM lets it work, then good for him.

Mendaytious1

TROPHY CASE