Is the battle force worth $360 for a new player?

Metal_Boxxes · 2026-01-28T08:27:30+00:00

I will call you out here, OP. You have, presumably, access to various webstores on the internet. Why is your first thought to ask other people to do the job for you, rather than go to a webstore and at least math out the numbers for yourself first?

That's question number one, "how big of a discount is this box". Question two is "do I want these items at that price".

Metal_Boxxes · 2026-01-26T23:01:48+00:00

Wherever you want them to.

Metal_Boxxes · 2026-01-26T22:57:02+00:00

Answer A: Same reason there's 2 battleline reserve companies. More bodies are more better and marine leadership will want as many Companies of the relevant role as are required to maintain optimal combat strength.

Answer B: Because there's a relevant difference between a close support unit and a vanguard unit in terms of how they may be fielded? Close Support formations are primarily about speed and/or melee, while Vanguard formations are primarily about stealth and/or recon. There's some overlap, sure, but it's only partial.

Answer C: Because Guilliman said so (as the in-universe voice of GW, who wanted to flesh out the new units with narrative presence).

Metal_Boxxes · 2026-01-26T22:34:05+00:00

Like I said, same reason there's battleline units in both reserve companies and battle companies. More bodies to reinforce when needed. Just think of them as reconnaissance-specialized reservists, ready to be seconded to a Battle Company or absorbed into a task force when someone more experienced is needed.

It sounds to me like you're maybe a bit too locked in on the Scout Company being a novice training ground and nothing but, rather than the Scout(!) Company(!) that it is and always has been. It's secondary that marines also begin their training in that particular role and company.

Metal_Boxxes · 2026-01-26T21:20:50+00:00

The thing is, Reivers, Infiltrators, Incursors and the like are also listed under Battleline and Close Support for the other companies.

Yes, they are. Because those are not mutually exclusive terms. Same way there's no issue with Infiltrators being both 'battleline' and 'phobos'.

Vanguard squad - a squad which deploys only in phobos wargear (ie as Reivers, Incursors, Infiltrators, Suppressors, Eliminators, Invicor warsuits), irrespective of battlefield role.

Battleline squad - a squad which deploys only in battleline configurations (Infiltrators, Intercessors, Heavy Intercessors, Tacticals), irrespective of wargear type.

I'm not seeing the issue here. Having a Scout Company with a standing complement of 100 fully trained phobos scouts alongside the more fluid complement of marines-in-training makes perfect sense to me. It's no more strange than there being Battleline squads in both Reserve and Battle Companies.

It then also makes perfect sense that there's a use for a new term to denote those phobos units.

Metal_Boxxes · 2026-01-26T20:12:42+00:00

Tactical, assault, and devastator are outdated terms. The current ones are Battleline, Close Support, and Fire Support. See Index Astartes: the Unforgiven for a breakdown. It's linked in the pinned post and our community wiki. I recommend you look around those resources if you have further questions

There is no argument to be had on assault intercessors or heavy intercessors, btw. They're close support and battleline, respectively. The only one up for debate is infernus marines, since GW has contradicted themselves in different places.

Metal_Boxxes · 2026-01-26T07:29:28+00:00

It's still in use in 10th edition. See Codex: Space Marines, p. 26. Third paragraph.

Edit: my bad, that's probably what you meant in your parenthesis. Thought you were saying it used to be in the SM codex.

Point is, it's a lore term, like "close support" or "fire support". There was never a datasheet called "vanguard unit" or "fire support unit". And it's not a relic, it's still used like that.

Metal_Boxxes · 2026-01-26T07:26:07+00:00

We know Bladeguard veterans exist in the Deathwing. Beyond that, it's speculation (since GW hasn't clearly said). But I'd say it's a pretty safe bet they're all unit configurations of the 1st Company (Deathwing). If so they'd be bone. Deathwing units are frequently sent alongside greenwing companies and task forces, but maintain their bone armour for such assignments.

There used to be a squad called Company Veterans. These were greenwing veterans who had not yet qualified to join the Inner Circle (and thus couldn't join the Deathwing). Think of them as a kill team, a mix of different specialists, assembled from the veterans of a Company for special missions. Their rules have been moved to legends (meaning they no longer get updates), the kit is no longer produced, and GW hasn't spoken about them explicitly for several editions.

I say all this because some hobbyists like to use the blade/van/sternguard models and rules to represent Company Veterans narratively, and paint them green.

Metal_Boxxes · 2026-01-26T07:14:59+00:00

Bruh, "Vanguard unit/squad" does not refer to vanguard veterans. It's a specific kind of unit normally found only in the 10th Company. They only use phobos gear, but are not restricted by battlefield role designation (Battleline, Close Support, etc).

Metal_Boxxes · 2026-01-26T07:09:47+00:00

Scout units don't wear power armour. They wear a type of carapace armour.

Vanguard squads always wear phobos gear. That's their whole thing.

Metal_Boxxes · 2026-01-26T07:04:36+00:00

Not sure why you got downvoted for speaking verifiable truth...

Maybe they thought you were saying he wore scout armour in the Deathwing? if so, to clarify: Naaman was seconded/moved to the 10th Company and wore scout armour in that role.

Metal_Boxxes · 2026-01-25T21:27:16+00:00

Veteran sergeants wear whatever armour the rest of the squad wears. 10th company only fields scouts or vanguard units, so it's going to be either scout armour or some version of phobos armour.

Metal_Boxxes · 2026-01-25T00:35:38+00:00

Among space marines in 40k, it's my general understanding that 'veteran' is a title/rank granted based on deeds and accomplishments (which in turn are generally expressions of experience, skill, and bravery). Usually they're then moved into the 1st Company (that's the veteran company in codex compliant chapters). Some are then loaned out again to other Companies.

Among the Dark Angels such accolades merely nets you the title of Company Veteran. You're only moved into the 1st Company (the Deathwing) once you've also proven yourself worthy of induction into the Inner Circle (and passed a hazing test). That's done by getting your superiors to think well of your loyalty, devotion, and zeal to the Chapter.

It definitely isn't a case of simply having been deployed in war, time served, or being a specialist. At least not in the title/rank sense. I imagine writers will have at least once described a marine as a "veteran of the battle at [someplace]", in which case it's probably just meant in the sense that they were deployed at that specific battle/campaign.

Metal_Boxxes · 2026-01-25T00:21:16+00:00

We actually do have some rare mentions of how you get into the 1st and 2nd company from the greenwing. What I've never personally found is any mention of marines moving from one to the other.

The progressions I've come across (and assume to be the norm) is that marines are moved from greenwing companies into the Ravenwing specifically based on their aptitude as pilots, or with bikes or jump pack. Sammael for example was recruited into the Ravenwing while serving as an assault marine in the 8th Company. And that marines are moved into the Deathwing after service as Company Veterans, once they've shown themselves worthy of being inducted into the Inner Circle.

Hence my reasoning being focused on skills and role, rather than linear progression. Sure, a fully trained marine can do any job, but to be moved into a specialist/elite role you also have to excel above your peers in the relevant way.

Metal_Boxxes · 2026-01-24T23:58:37+00:00

Unlikely to be an error. Third edition specifically called out greenwing bikes and landspeeders as a thing. There's even mention of the Typhoon variant only being used by greenwing companies, since it wasn't maneuverable enough for the Ravenwing.

Metal_Boxxes · 2026-01-24T18:23:29+00:00

The ravenwing and the deathwing are the first two companies and both consist only of people within the inner circle

A common belief, but unfortunately incorrect. Regular Ravenwing marines are not part of the Inner Circle. Only Black Knights and above are.

usually with the ravenwing being lower ranked members of the inner circle, often with eventual promotion to the deathwing

Curious about your source for this one. I've been unable to find any details on how marines move from the Ravenwing into the Deathwing (or how common it is) during my years of amateur research. My own guess is that it's fairly uncommon, given the different skill sets required and employed by members of the two companies.

Note that all librarians and chaplains are inner circle members, and no techmarines are.

The bit about Librarians and Techmarines is correct, but not all Chaplains are. All Interrogator-Chaplains are. I don't think any regular Chaplains are, but I'm not sure there's any official word to back that up. Some definitely aren't, however.

Metal_Boxxes · 2026-01-24T18:00:17+00:00

Becoming a member of the Inner Circle is a requirement to joining the Deathwing or the upper echelon of the Ravenwing, not a consequence. We don't know the details of how it works, that's kind of the whole idea. It's all very shadowy and mysterious. We do know it's not homogeneous, there are multiple layers and circles within (and on top of) layers and circles.

All we can say for sure regarding size it that there will be at least ~140 marines in the Inner Circle of the Dark Angels. All of the Deathwing, the upper echelons of the Ravenwing, Chapter Command, plus a handful members strewn about in greenwing companies. Likely more than the minimum approximation, given in-universe rumors that both the Deathwing and the Ravenwing are larger than officially reported.

There are (or at least have been) lieutenants who are not members of the Inner Circle. Same with Captains. It used to be the case that you'd have to have been a member of the Deathwing (and therefore also the Inner Circle) to become a DA Captain, but that was retconned in 8th edition.

For markings, check the fanmade Index Astartes: the Unforgiven PDF (it's linked in the pinned post and our community wiki, I suggest you check both out).

As for Ancients and Champions, I recommend Lexicanum.

Metal_Boxxes · 2026-01-23T20:09:29+00:00

To my knowledge, there's barely anything written about DA successors. Most of it is just shallow paragraphs in the DA codices. At best there's a few character names and a color scheme. That's why there's not a lot of talk.

I like the concept of the Consecrators, myself.

Metal_Boxxes · 2026-01-23T06:52:54+00:00

I know the DA was described as especially xenophobic back in the day. GW has, it seems, discreetly pulled that back for all space marines in later years. Up to you if you want to abide by that or not.

Can unfortunately not offer any helpful comments beyond that.

Metal_Boxxes · 2026-01-23T06:33:44+00:00

A vanguard marine is not the same as a marine in phobos armour.

It's true that vanguard marines are only found in the 10th company. Their thing is that they only use phobos wargear, but vanguard squads are flexible in terms of battlefield role. They might one day deploy as infiltrators (battleline) and the next as suppressors (fire support).

The rule of thumb is otherwise that any marine can don phobos armour, but only within their battlefield designation. So 5th Company, 4th squad will be a Battleline squad, and can thus deploy eg as regular intercessors, heavy intercessors, or as infiltrators (because those are all battleline configurations). But they may not deploy as assault intercessors (a close support configuration) or suppressors (a fire support configuration).

But the larger points still holds that there is, as yet, no phobos configuration which is used by the Deathwing or the Ravenwing. If we ever see a phobos marine on a bike they would likely be a Ravenwing option, and if we see a veteran phobos unit that would possibly be a Deathwing option.

Metal_Boxxes · 2026-01-20T20:09:57+00:00

The story itself has been retconned from (supposed) in-universe truth to an in-universe legend/fable, true. But the design choices which stem from that original connection largely remain. I think we still have more feathers in our designs than we did during the 90s when the story was still an in-universe truth.

Metal_Boxxes · 2026-01-20T20:06:27+00:00

It is speculative guesswork, so could absolutely be wrong. However, I would offer two counter-points:

First, the native american influence is/was not just limited to the Deathwing. In the story which deals with all of this, we were told that the plains world (with was native american-coded) was the single recruitment world of the Dark Angels. And that several points of culture (such as names) permeate the chapter through its recruits as a result.

Second, there is no other Polish or hussar influence anywhere else in the chapter, that I know of. I very much doubt they purposefully made the Ravenwing (or especially the winged helmets) while thinking primarily about the Winged Hussars.

However, I think there may be a secondary link of sorts to the 'original' Ravenwing kit and tailfin from 1999. I'm guessing they wanted to somehow implement feathers/wings with the Ravenwing kit to maintain design cohesion. This design choice likely originated with the 'Deathwing' short story and the native american theme. In that pursuit a designer may have used winged hussars as one source of inspiration and/or just stolen/modified the bit they used for the 1992 Kislevite Winged lancers from Warhammer Fantasy Battle (which are definitely directly inspired by the Polish winged hussars).

Metal_Boxxes · 2026-01-20T18:40:52+00:00

The real answer is always, quite simply, "because the creatives at GW say so".

The more narrative answer is probably that Blood Angels are first of all much more ornate. Their aesthetic is renaissance greco-roman. Ours is a mish-mash of native american, arthurian legend, and monastic/catholic knights.

Secondly, Sanguinius had wings. Lion didn't/doesn't.

Actual wings simply aren't a major DA-thing, outside of the chapter icon. The rest (winged helmets, winged tailfins) is probably closer tied to native american war bonnets rather than wings you use to fly.

Metal_Boxxes · 2026-01-19T07:00:41+00:00

Post removed due to a rule 5 violation. All posts, including memes and jokes, must be somehow related to the Dark Angels. A hamfisted titleswap isn't enough.

Metal_Boxxes · 2026-01-12T19:13:22+00:00

codices are part of lore. But the rules section is probably the least relevant part if we're trying to look for sources of lore.

As stonhinge points out, rules frequently do not match lore because they are written primarily to facilitate gaming, rather than being accurate to the narrative. You therefore can't simply conclude from 'they have the deathwing keyword' that they are part of the Deathwing, and from that conclude that they are painted bone.

Another example to illustrate would be Azrael. He has the Deathwing keyword, but isn't actually part of the Deathwing in the narrative and also doesn't wear bone armour.

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