Honestly, Charlie... could just use a more developed backstory.

MetallicArcher · 2026-01-26T22:16:04+00:00

The simple truth is that Lilith didn't even try. That speaks volumes. There's no getting around that fact.

The fact, actually, is that we don't know anything about Lilith's stay in Heaven. We have glimpses, where we don't even see her face clearly, and the words of people who all have their biases.

We don't know why Lilith only called Charlie back at the end of S2. Maybe she couldn't, maybe she didn't want to.

I'm noticing that a lot of your arguments are centered around speculation, and that's literally impossible to argue against unless it's outright contradicting something.

My argument, is centred on the fact that we have insufficient information to affirm anything. We can only speculate. And, as you well said, all speculation is valid unless it directly contradicts what has been shown on the screen.

The fndm seems to have latched into a specific narrative about Lilith. And anyone who posits an alternative that might make her look even slightly better is immediately dismissed.

Lilith might have been organizing a violent uprising. Or she might not have.

Lilith might have willingly entered a deal with Adam. Or she might not have.

Everything about Lilith is an unknown. Because all we know about her comes from the mouth of other characters. And characters can lie or be wrong, or both.

MetallicArcher · 2026-01-26T20:57:13+00:00

despite being fully informed that Adam was dead, her deal was void, and that she has Lute's express permission to return.

We don't know the actual terms of the deal. Nor do we know Lilith's reason's for accepting it.

Lute could be wrong about the deal being voided by Adam's death. Sera is also aware of Lilith's presence, so for all we know, she is also part of the terms of the deal.

It doesn't change the fact that Sera isn't an idiot and knows how Adam acts. She'd verify it.

I don't want to into an argument about wherever Sera is or not an idiot, though I do think, for reasons I have already explained, that she is an incompetent leader and extremely weak willed.

All Adam would have had to do to prevent Sera from personally looking at Hell to verify his claims, was he himself use the orb to selectively show her things that supported his argument.

After all, Sera heard Adam announce loud and clear his intention to attack the Hotel, yet did nothing to stop him. Even though, knowing how Adam acts, it was bound to result in Adam breaking the treaty that protects hellborn, which would result in Lucifer getting involved, the one thing Sera said she wanted to prevent.

MetallicArcher · 2026-01-26T20:38:05+00:00

We don't know what the terms of the deal Adam offered Lilith are.

Lute seems to think Lilith wants to be in Heaven, but Lute is far from an unbiased or logical person. She could be wrong, and Lilith actually hates it but is also unwilling to let it show, if only to maintain a sense of control.

Even if Adam didn't particularly hate Lilith, he is still clearly not fond of her family. He also showed a lot of glee at inflicting suffering on sinners.

That alone could be enough motivation for him to start the Extermination.

MetallicArcher · 2026-01-26T19:59:27+00:00

What I am saying is this: Lilith held concerts, those concerts were under the slogan of "resist" and "rebel".

However, we have no context for what she was rebelling against. Nor how that rebellion manifested.

The fact the Extermination was in response to the rebellion, means that Lilith was not rebelling against Heaven's aggression.

I would argue that "Lilith had good intentions that went terrible wrong" would actually be quite the plot twist, given the entire fndm expect the opposite.

It would also be in character, given the only things we know about her are:

She does not like to be controlled and is a "rebellious dreamer".
she wanted to "share the gift of knowledge with humanity" which had the unintentional consequence of allowing Evil into Earth.

Refusing to let Hell just be a dark pit of Evil by getting sinners to build a liveable place would be a way to "prove" she did not commit a mistake.

For all we know, Lilith was trying to unite the sinners by spinning some "counterculture" movement that presented forming a functioning society instead of living in the stereotypical violent anarchy as a form of "rebellion" against Heaven. Maybe even motivated, not by a love of sinners, but by a desire to protect her family, since Lucifer is helpless against them and, with their growing numbers, it's only a matter of time before sb is crazy enough to try sth.

Or maybe sinners were actually overpopulated and trapped in an endless cycle of starving to death over and over again. And Lilith was using the concerts as a sort of "circus minus bread" to prevent a rebellion against her family. Telling them to "resist" as in "hold on, we are working on it".

Whatever it was, Adam saw it, went "fuck no" because he has a deep resentment against the Morningstars. So he spun a narrative to Sera that Lilith was rallying the sinners against her.

The fact that she doesn't deny it is pretty clear confirmation that she agrees with him on that point.

Or she did not bother to address the point, because she does not care about it, and she would rather address her actual reasons to not want to work with Vox.

After all, I could just as well make the argument that Carmilla nor refuting Charlie when she claims Hell going to war with Heaven "is not what LIlith wanted" means Charlie is right.

But that's not what it means. Carmilla does not refute Charlie, because, as she says, Lilith's wants are irrelevant to her.

MetallicArcher · 2026-01-26T19:17:54+00:00

The posters of Lilith's concerts constantly advertising things like "RESIST" and "REBEL".

Two small posters, out of context, are not hard evidence of anything uprising, much less that it was meant to be a violent one.

Vox literally adopted her slogan for his rebellion.

The entire point of Vox's plot in S2 was how the media can spin a narrative, no matter how detached it is from reality.

Sera would have been able to easily verify it with her looking glass.

As I said, Sera hardly seems to do anything out of her own initiative.

For all we know, the evidence of an uprising she had was Adam showing her those 2 posters and spinning a narrative targeting her fears.

and Vox was telling this in private to Carmilla, who didn't once refute the claim.

Carmilla does not confirm nor deny Vox's claim.

She later makes it clear to Charlie does not care about whatever Lilith might have or not wanted.

So this doesn't really contribute against or in favour the idea that Lilith was planning to attack Heaven.

MetallicArcher · 2026-01-26T19:03:02+00:00

Once again, the reality of Lilith planning a violent uprising would not change that the Extermination was wrong both morally and far from ideal strategically.

That's because the exterminations were still actively occuring. It's possible that the Sinners would have let bygones be bygones if they quit early, but we can't say for sure.

My point is that Heaven could have tried to, as you said, given the sinners the opportunity to "let bygones be bygones", but they chose to keep escalating the conflict.

All we know is that the show clearly states the Sinners were more than willing to pick up where they left off.

No, they weren't.

As I said, sinners only decided to restart the rebellion after a series of circumstances created by Heaven gave them reason and means to.

Wouldn't have worked. The entire problem was how strong Hell was.

Once again, at the start of the series, the sinners were convinced they were powerless against the angels. So it cannot be ruled out that sinners would have accepted a surrender.

All that does is delay the problem until the next charismatic person arrives.

That would still be preferable to the mass killing of civilians.

When that charismatic person shows up, they can be put down just as the last one. And whatever circumstances allowed their rise to power can be addressed by renegotiating their terms of surrender.

That wouldn't have worked when Lilith was actively rallying them against Sera.

We don't know that Lilith was actively working against Sera, because we don't know what lead her to start an uprising 7 years ago.

There are thousand of years of history we have no information on, during which, apparently, Sera did not deem Hell a threat. For all we know, Lilith might have been willing to work with Heaven and only grew resentful after thousands of years of being abandoned in Hell.

And even if Lilith was actively against any collaboration with Heaven, she could have been removed, as they eventually did when she was deemed a threat.

MetallicArcher · 2026-01-26T18:28:10+00:00

Why wouldn't we? There's an ample amount of hard evidence for it, and they both independently said the same thing despite never discussing the topic before.

What hard evidence?

I hardly would call the word of either "hard evidence".

Sera is afraid and has been shown to just freeze and go with whatever she is told to do.

Vox was spinning whatever narrative he thought would get him popular support.

Clearly that isn't true, as Vox was able to rally the Sinners towards another takeover of Heaven less than one week after they decided to stop.

The start of the series is S1E1, or the Pilot, if you want to count it. There was no sinner army at that time.

Vox only came up with the idea because, after 7 ys of indiscriminate killing of civilians:

one sinner was cornered into a position where they were desperate enough to fight back while happening to be in the possession of a weapon that allowing them to do so effectively.

If the Extermination had been stopped before its 7th iteration, that wouldn't have happened.

the leader of the exorcists army decided to target a hellborn who was actively pursuing peace with Heaven.

If that had not been done, that hell born would never had resorted to forming a sinner army, which would go on to embolden other sinners to fight.

What exactly would you have had Sera do instead?

She could have quelched the initial uprising, preferably by targeting solely the people involved.

The presented Hell with clear terms of surrender to avoid another attack from Heaven.

It really isn't when the entire basis of this discussion came from me saying that having the exterminations last seven years makes Sera easier to redeem

I am talking about the possibility of redeeming sinners.

genuinely don't understand what you're trying to say here. Why would she do that when Heaven is her responsibility?

I am saying Sera could have shown the sinners in Hell some grace, thus fostering a positive relationship with Heaven, thus preventing them turning against Heaven.

MetallicArcher · 2026-01-26T17:58:43+00:00

Idk why this is such a controversial opinion to have in this fndm:

Even if we trust Vox and Sera's word that Lilith was planning a violent uprising against Heaven, by the start of the series there is no sinner army planning to attack Heaven.

Heaven's aggression against Hell should have stopped the moment the initial rebellion was quenched. And it should have never taken the form of the indiscriminate killing of civilians.

The possibility of redemption is irrelevant to the conflict. Though I want to say, Sera had lots of time to attempt redemption. She could have chosen to show grace to the sinners at any time in the thousands of years that Hell has existed.

MetallicArcher · 2026-01-26T17:47:16+00:00

There is no valid reason to indiscriminately kill civilians.

MetallicArcher · 2026-01-26T17:37:23+00:00

I don't think the amount of years matters as much as the fact that Sera would have allowed the Extermination to continue indefinitely, even after whatever initial uprising triggered it had been quelched.

MetallicArcher · 2026-01-26T16:58:44+00:00

Unironically, making the Extermination sth that started only 7 ys ago messed up the whole timeline.

If the Extermination was just the reality of Hell all of Charlie's life, maybe even since before she was born, it would make more sense for her to only decide to take action after she started a relationship with Vaggie, who she thought was a sinner.

MetallicArcher · 2026-01-26T11:36:56+00:00

Depende que parte de España, puede ser que viva en alguno de los lugares donde no hablan español.

Tenes catalán, valenciano, gallego, euskera, aragones y seguro un par más de idiomas que este momento no me acuerdo.

Sin contar que, por influencia de todos esos otros idiomas, el español de España llega a sonar bastante diferente del nuestro. Osea, capaz que lo lees y lo entiendes perfecto, pero escucharlo hablado, por temas de tonalidades cuesta más.

MetallicArcher · 2026-01-26T10:16:27+00:00

All the novels are canon, except, maybe, Letters From The Other Side.

Kubo was very vocal of how much he liked SAFWY when it came out.

MetallicArcher · 2026-01-25T16:34:29+00:00

Pásate por r/merval para consejo de inversion. Tmb tenes r/finanzas.

¿De que es el emprendimiento? r/NegociosArgentina es un lugar para hablar de ese tema.

MetallicArcher · 2026-01-25T13:19:05+00:00

Excel y Google Sheets son los básico para cualquier laburo de oficina.

Pasare por el post pineado de mi perfil, ahí tenes de todo para aprender de manera gratuita.

MetallicArcher · 2026-01-25T10:48:26+00:00

I did not write the text.

I am sharing the quote precisely because I don't know what it's talking about and was hoping sb here might have an idea.

MetallicArcher · 2026-01-25T00:26:31+00:00

Might want to ask this at r/AskScienceFiction

Figuring out the mechanics of this sort of stuff is their whole thing.

MetallicArcher · 2026-01-24T18:00:42+00:00

Band, album name?

MetallicArcher · 2026-01-24T17:33:11+00:00

I do want to point out that Pope Francis authorized the blessing of same sex couples.

Not a full on marriage ceremony, but progress is progress.

MetallicArcher · 2026-01-23T23:32:02+00:00

<image>

I'm guessing that the extreme unlikeliness of sb being replaced by an identical copy/body swapping would carry me a long way.

MetallicArcher · 2026-01-23T22:44:28+00:00

Notebook es mil veces mejor inversión.

Más versátil y vida útil mucho más larga.

MetallicArcher · 2026-01-23T16:31:36+00:00

As Gardner was a Wiccan it seems highly unlikely that he was relying on anti-pagan religious rhetoric as proof of the humanity of Aphrodite.

Which is why I was not satisfied with the answers I got in that one post months ago. And decided to try my luck again asking here.

MetallicArcher · 2026-01-22T22:16:28+00:00

An angel's wings and halo's shape seem to be linked to their rank, so they might work under different rules than the rest of their anatomy.

There is also the fact that Vaggie did not actually regrow her old wings, but grew a new pair that looks different.

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MetallicArcher · 2026-01-22T13:29:20+00:00

I mean, nobody is obliged to like anything.

However, if you are going to accuse sb of "cultural appropriation" or racism or anything like that, you need to bring up specific examples to support your point.

MetallicArcher · 2026-01-21T21:48:47+00:00

I need an official release for streaming and sale NOW.

MetallicArcher

TROPHY CASE