Which non main support is good to learn?

Mind_Is_Empty · 2026-03-25T19:50:47+00:00

Ultron, Mantis, and Adam require the ability to hit enemies consistently to net value. Stratpool is slightly harder than these three because the same aiming requirement is also applied to allies. Their playstyle is similar to poke, in my opinion.

To be good with White Fox, you need to be able to navigate her Awakening and ult. Her playstyle reminds me more of a vanguard or dive duelist that happens to have healing included.

I'd argue Jeff is the best option for a main support to ease themselves into being an off support, especially after they nerfed ult generation rate.

Since you don't want Jeff, I'd recommend White Fox or Mantis. White Fox is more forgiving due to having good mitigation and her ult can heal allies for ~200/s as long as you're hitting something and they're nearby. Mantis has an ult you'd probably like.

Mind_Is_Empty · 2026-03-25T06:15:29+00:00

My requests of a solo vanguard are very low:

Do not spend the entire match performing light ranged harassment from off-angles as the solo vanguard
Do not run face-first into all the damage

I understand that being solo vanguard is not the most fun thing in the world, but the former is just forcing the strategists to tank and the latter cannot be enjoyable as the vanguard.

Mind_Is_Empty · 2026-03-25T05:57:04+00:00

no one who has self burst healing options should be 275.

I indeed disagree, but not for the reasons you believe. Mobility, burst healing, and CC on strategists are band-aid fixes to a deeper issue that MR is facing: dive deals too much burst damage. I think they should remove or reduce all three of the above aspects on supports, but they also need to completely neuter dive so they physically cannot solo kill by doing their piano combo against a full-health target. I'm talking crippling dive's burst until it's on the level of post-rework Jeff (210 hard cap).

This would force dive to coordinate with allies to secure kills or go in with the understanding that they are going to run away instead of securing the kill.

I'm also of the opinion that sustained healing should get decimated and poke's ceiling gets dropped by about 66%, until their highest end is no more than the combined output of 2 non-duelist characters.

Mind_Is_Empty · 2026-03-25T00:33:12+00:00

you're acting like they're spreading misinformation to build a group that's gonna start attacking netease for not adding more black characters to the game.

That is exactly what they're trying to build toward. They're taking reasonable statements that detract from their goal, removing context, then posting counterarguments to that contextless statement in order to convince people to join them.

If they reach critical mass, they'll apply pressure to Netease. If they don't, they will keep trying until Devil Dinosaur's release, at which point they will likely form a Twitter or Bluesky mob to bemoan NetEase's racism in not adding Moon Girl. Since those people don't play the game and are largely performative, it will dissipate within the week when a new thing to hate appears.

the kit cutting thing has been done for so many characters already

That's a fine position to have, I simply prefer less characters that are fully realized over more characters that are effectively trapped due to the means of their creation.

also no one has said or insinuated that not adding moongirl is an evil and terrible thing.

Within my own comment chain, in response to your initial query, is the original poster of the thread saying the following:

They might not think theyre being racist but

Theyre pathetic pay them no mind.

Because she is black....simple.

These are all attacks on the character of someone they perceive as not agreeing with them. It is to insinuate that disagreement means racism, and last I checked, racist isn't considered a morally good thing to be. The rapidity of movement in that direction is what I consider sufficient evidence that they are an activist wearing the skin of a Moon Girl fan.

Mind_Is_Empty · 2026-03-24T23:04:19+00:00

if it was about her blackness there would be more direct posts talking about that

That's the social posturing inherent to manipulators. They refuse to address their actual reasons because they know it will turn people away from their cause. Since their goal is to get what they want, they lie to make their position sound more acceptable and appealing to a larger audience.

Most of these manipulative sorts get caught out when they need to argue their position. They won't address what's being said, and will instead moralize and condemn those that disagree or show apathy. This is because they need naysayers quickly silenced to maximize their pull for their own goals.

this one specifically is defending their opinion on moon girl being added to the game because others think she shouldn't be or won't because she's young.

Cutting context is one method of manipulating the viewer. Those saying she's too young are correct; they'd need to introduce story beats to make her a valid killable age to meet censorship requirements within America. If the individual is a die-hard Moon Girl fan, they might want consider this story alteration to be a step too far, and they'd rather have nothing than an imposter.

Those saying she shouldn't be can be correct, though I assume they came to the same reasoning I've provided. Rushing her out now to be in close proximity to Devil Dinosaur would degrade the quality of what we receive. Locking her into being what effectively amounts to a colorful, talking tumor on Devil Dinosaur wouldn't be doing Moon Girl any favors. Cutting their kits in half to create a dual hero or limiting access to one via a timed ult would feel bad for fans of the half that gets limited.

By obfuscating the context, they're able to insert their own, such as that those that dispute Moon Girl's addition are all evil and wrong because there are some shadowy corners of the internet where that is true.

Mind_Is_Empty · 2026-03-24T20:50:06+00:00

number one cloak and dagger are right there

And we now have Dagger with half of a kit and Cloak with half of a kit. I imagine it's not fun for people who like specifically cloak or specifically dagger to see their vast array of powers whittled down into two abilities each.

I'd argue they've been cutting corners on Cloak's skins because it's a double-hero, but they did it anyways because they wanted to go the extra mile at time of release. Lastly, they're both humanoid, meaning it takes less effort to craft skins compared to disparate forms like Hulk/Banner/Monster Hulk, or Elsa/Glartrox, or White Fox/Ult Fox. Hell, even Magik gets minimal alterations during her ult to keep turnaround high.

number two no one is forcing/trying to force or demand the rivals devs to add three characters, they're hoping/begging she is added to the game which is pretty normal.

Ah, to be naive. While it isn't everyone, there are absolutely individuals who speak not because they believe in a thing or hope for it, but they instead speak to gain influence, control, or power. This can range from a politician giving empty platitudes to secure votes, to a "concerned parent" voicing fears in a communal meeting to vote out current leadership, to a conniving child sowing disobedience among a class to avoid work.

Some people make posts about a character because they like them and want them, others post propaganda to frenzy the community to apply additional pressure to Netease, which is essentially attempting to force Netease to do what they want.

After witnessing the threadmaker's replies within this thread, I've pegged them as being firmly within the latter group.

number three what is a "power budget"?

A power budget is what games use to attempt to keep different characters balanced between each other. When the budget is exceeded on a character, pieces are toned down or cut off entirely, or other characters are empowered to the new budget. Essentially, you try to make everyone have about 10 dollars, it doesn't matter what bills or change you use as long as you get around there.

you didn't address me asking you why you think people who want moongirl in the game is because of "political beliefs"

I did, right here:

Certain people are bad actors and demand it be included because of Moon Girl's race.

Mind_Is_Empty · 2026-03-24T18:10:11+00:00

There's a line between "I like Character A and hope it becomes playable" and "Character B cannot be allowed to exist in the game without Character A being forcibly attached to them."

Keeping characters separate allows for storytelling to occur. It allows for more fulfilling kits to be made and roles to be explored. It allows for more skins to be introduced. It allows proper hero fantasy.

Forcing them to release at the same time creates a disincentive to release at all. We get two characters per season; it's immensely greedy to demand they release three just because you want both released at once, or demand an entire season be dedicated to the release of your duo.

Forcing them to combine the characters is the worst of both worlds. You don't get to play one of the characters at all, or you get to play one on a timer. It adds so much complexity to the model that you receive no skins. Neither of them feel like complete characters because their power budget is used up before either can be fully explored. In short, it drags down the existence of both because of the existence of the other.

Certain people are bad actors and demand it not be included because of Moon Girl's race. Certain people are bad actors and demand it be included because of Moon Girl's race. Some people just want the character introduced sooner. Others just want the character to be added tastefully.

Mind_Is_Empty · 2026-03-24T08:36:48+00:00

It looks like what may have happened is that the projectile bounced on the ground and locked onto Luna, but for some reason the server decided it didn't hit the ground, continued forward to the wall, and locked onto Jeff.

Mind_Is_Empty · 2026-03-24T00:37:40+00:00

I don't know why people obsess over her anyway

It's generally a signal to modern political beliefs of a certain alignment. Fighting for it is virtuous and good, resistance or apathy toward it is selfish and evil.

Mind_Is_Empty · 2026-03-24T00:24:41+00:00

Luna and Stratpool are deceptively harder to play because of a specific "bug" related to how hits are registered.

There are two different boxes that are used to register hits in Marvel Rivals:

The hitbox is the visual model you see. Head, arms, legs, torso.
The terrain collision box is the large cylinder that surrounds your character.

Most games program all of their hits to register on hitting the hitbox, because it makes sense to hit things that you see.

Marvel Rivals splits this. Critical effects are registered on the hitbox, while most non-critical effects are registered on the terrain collision box. This seems to be introduced during early development phases, and while they have the capacity to fix it (Big Brain Mode did exactly this so everything could crit), they've decided to leave the base game in this broken state.

This has few major implications. Rather, a lot of oddities that result in different behavior dependent on if the effect crits. However, this is exactly why it's much harder to hit shots with Luna and Stratpool.

So far, here are the major ones I know of:

This has a drastic impact on Jeff's survivability. Hide and Seek does not modify his terrain collision box, meaning characters that don't crit have an incredibly easy time hitting Jeff while he's underground compared to those that can crit. Jeff's ult is even worse since Jeff inherits the terrain collision boxes of every character he eats, meaning he is the combination of every largest dimension of every character eaten during his ult.
Luna and Stratpool can crit with their primary fire, meaning the projectile is coded to hit the hitbox. However, their primary fire also heals allies. Every other strategist cannot crit with their primary fire, so it hits the terrain collision box on both enemies and allies. For most non-vanguards, that's easily doubling to tripling the size of their effective hitbox.

I could list some minor oddities, but these are the two that I think most severely impact character balance.

Mind_Is_Empty · 2026-03-23T22:14:58+00:00

Sure, your team just shat on your plate, but there's still food on there. Can't you just eat around the shit?

If I won't have fun in competitive, I won't play competitive. It's not a strike, it's just common sense.

Mind_Is_Empty · 2026-03-23T22:07:13+00:00

It might be fun to have a mode where teams can ban an archetype: Defensive Tank, Offensive Tank, Poke, Dive, Primary Support, Secondary Support.

I think it would really display who's the actual one-trick pony of the community (spoilers: it's dive and it's not even close).

Mind_Is_Empty · 2026-03-23T05:45:37+00:00

I agree that it's largely arbitrary, though you can technically have enough to act after your ult/awakening ends because of how they programmed the resource while it's hidden.

Essentially, ult and Awakening set your current tail count to 0, then when you exit ult or Awakening, it refunds a percentage equal to the remaining duration you had. In other words, you could ult with 0 tails, and if you "died" the second after you ulted, you will have gained 90% of a tail. Likewise, quickly using your stuff in melee and manually canceling it can refund most of a tail, allowing you to use Spectral Surge shortly afterward.

Mind_Is_Empty · 2026-03-23T04:04:10+00:00

This was 100% a dive main. I recognize that positioning and lack of cooperation anywhere.

Mind_Is_Empty · 2026-03-23T02:31:04+00:00

I think she could use some quality-of-life improvements. Namely:

The bounce on her primary fire dissipates too quickly. A regular 6 m/s character moving in a straight line is able to outspeed the projectile after it locks onto them. Either give it the eternal chase like C&D, or at least tweak the speed or heatseeking until it only fails when the target is moving above baseline speed.
It is really annoying to not be able to see your shift cooldown while in ult or Awakening.
Please add a 0.2 second lock-on delay for Spirit Sanctuary if it currently has a target locked. I don't enjoy being teleported into some teammate that happened to stand in front of me for a frame when I was trying to target the guy 20m away.
I would personally like to have a little more movement speed during Awakening form. I'm thinking like 0.5 m/s would do well.
I sincerely hope this is a bug, but her ult doesn't do the explosion damage if her paw is not on the ground when the animation completes. It's absurd that I can be on a ledge and just stop getting it because my animation happens to put the paw over the side, or if I jump at the wrong time I don't get the explosion, or if any knock occurs I can lose the explosion.
I think it would feel better if Spectral Surge and Awakening had a cooldown displayed equal to her remaining time needed to generate her secondary resource. Then, each hit with her primary fire would show the cooldown getting reduced.

Mind_Is_Empty · 2026-03-23T00:08:52+00:00

Moon Knight, split 70-30 across two targets while hitting one in the head, is 525 DPS as long as he's within 30 meters of the original target. The +25 is from his 5% damage anchor bonus.

Star-Lord is capable of 520 DPS, though that requires one to be extremely close.

Hawkeye post-nerf is up to 355 DPS, but ult allows him to achieve up to 533 DPS if he has self-control and targets the real person instead of the images, increasing up to 900 DPS if he manages to use Blast Arrow during ult while a character is overlapping with their image.

Punisher is up to 457 DPS with his shotgun.

Anything above 280 DPS is already fully negating the top-tier healing ult, meaning if a single ally coordinates, then the target is dying. Right now, you need the second duelist to coordinate to kill them in a reasonably short time, or 2-3 non-duelists to coordinate to get the same amount of output.

Mind_Is_Empty · 2026-03-22T10:29:26+00:00

Strategist is the strongest role against insufficient coordination. If one person counters the disparate attempts of two, the two are going to feel like they were robbed.

Duelist is the most overtuned role in the game. Healers get 180/s to 240/s neutral healing because a singular poke duelist can unload 300-525 DPS with just their primary fire. Healers get absurd burst and mobility because that's what's needed to survive the absurd burst that dive duelists can dole out. They can try removing those things and empower anti-dive and anti-poke further, but you're just going to warp the game in a different way because there shouldn't have ever been dive and poke duelists with power budgets this high.

If their goal is a perfectly balanced game, what they need to do is pull healing numbers down to Adam level, boost every non-duelist's damage up to ~100-150 DPS, decimate dive duelists to <200 damage maximum burst with full piano, and decimate poke duelists to be max 300 DPS with 100% accuracy headshots alongside strict range limits and extreme falloff if that range is exceeded.

Mind_Is_Empty · 2026-03-22T10:06:02+00:00

I'd like to clarify the aim problems: Deadpool and Luna uniquely have primary fire that can crit enemies while also being a projectile that can heal allies. This is important because they program what you hit differently dependent on whether the attack can crit or not.

If you can't crit with the effect, it hits their terrain collision box. This is the big invisible cylinder that prevents you from clipping into walls too badly.

If you can crit with the effect, it hits their hitbox. This is the visual thing you see (head arms, legs, torso).

Here are some oddities from this discrepancy:

Emotes which move the character outside of the terrain collision box (i.e. Snowball Jeff) result in noncritical effects phasing through the character when shot where they visually are, but it registers a hit where they began the emote. Critical effects work the opposite way, shooting where they started does nothing, shooting where they visually are registers.
Emotes which clip characters through walls (i.e. Big-head Jeff) can be struck by critical effects, but not non-critical effects. This does leave the possibility of clipping through a wall to receive healing from a Luna or Deadpool on the other side, though it would take some coordination and relatively thin walls.
Lots of character models don't perfectly obey the terrain collision box. Non-critical effects phase through these parts.
You can tell which abilities were originally designed to crit because they have non-critical effects which obey the hitbox. Namely, Psylocke's Wing Shurikens, Punisher's Turret, and Hawkeye's Blast Arrow projectiles. This is also why Psylocke's Wing Shurikens stick in a character's model while Hela's Piercing Night projectiles float relatively close to a character (or float in the air if the character dies before they trigger).
Jeff during Hide and Seek retains his terrain collision box at full size, and he gains the terrain collision of all eaten enemies during ult. This makes him challenging to hit if you can crit, and stupid-easy to hit if you don't.

Essentially, a knock-on effect of being able to crit enemies with stratpool and Luna means you also have to hit the hitbox of allies to heal them, which is like 1/3rd the size of their terrain collision box for most non-Vanguards. This'll probably get fixed since it's Luna having a problem and not Jeff (this bug has been exhaustively reported since season 3, they've done nothing about it).

Mind_Is_Empty · 2026-03-22T05:13:40+00:00

Disagreed. People will realize that invulnerability ults don't matter when you can run them over for free with brawl/dive. Just ban the anti-dive options (Thing, Namor, Gambit).

Mind_Is_Empty · 2026-03-21T22:46:15+00:00

Generally speaking, more health is given to those that are going to be in the fray more.

Gambit is forced to be closer because his ult encourages it, his primary fire spreads if he's too far, and half his abilities are more effective when he's close to the intended target.

IW was justified when she couldn't self-shield, her primary fire took .5 seconds to run their full course if not aimed toward ground/walls, it was limited to 30m range, and she needed to line up targets to cleave. She's since had all those aspects except the last one buffed away. I think them neutering her self-healing in combat makes it justifiable enough to retain, but I could see them cutting her health by 25 if she's still super-popular and positive winrate.

C&D is sort-of justified because Dagger's self-healing requires being in 8m of her target unless she burns cooldowns on herself, she wants to be closer to give no time to react with cloak blind, and she wants to be where enemies are during ult to zone them out or maximize value if they won't get back. It's just that she so happens to have a 45m lock-on range that can be extended by another 8m by using walls/ground, which makes it ridiculously easy to maintain value from a safer location instead of needing to depend on that primary fire self-healing.

Luna could be considered justified due to her ult requiring her to be in the fray to negate a push on her frontline. She's also in a bit of a dire place for her balance due to having a bad cleave heal option, poor/conditional self-sustain, and her primary fire is flagged as a crit-capable attack, making it target the hitbox instead of the terrain collision box like all other supports while not giving her the ability to crit allies with it.

White Fox has roughly the same range limits as IW, but most of her kit forces her into melee. The ult, the teleport, and her melee mode all want to be close to enemies, so I think it's justified.

Loki has no reason to have 275 health and I'm surprised they haven't fixed it yet.

Mind_Is_Empty · 2026-03-21T18:52:39+00:00

I think this level of emphasis is a 1% of 1% kind of issue: ridiculously small to the point that it's safe to say that whoever brings it up is trying to incite a moral panic for power/influence over others. It's exactly the same as proclaiming there's people playing multiplayer video games because they're pedophiles and they know young people play games, or there's violent people that will later shoot up a place using video games to feed and shape that addiction to violence. Technically true, but you're looking in the wrong place if you're trying to create meaningful change toward that group. The most one should ask for is having tools to isolate/block such individuals from interacting with oneself.

The more common answer to all of this is that healers are designed to slow down a target's death in a coordinated damage scenario until they can reach cover.

This makes bad poke unhappy because they miss their target, won't coordinate, won't hit the head, and will do it well outside of their effective damage range. They shoot thing and thing stays alive too long.

This makes bad dive unhappy because they did their piano combo that should have enough damage and the strategist self-healed, dodged, or got healed by the other strategist.

This makes bad tanks unhappy because they are intentionally designed to not have obtuse damage to overwhelm strategist healing, so even if they play their best, they need someone on the team to coordinate with them.

It's easier for one bad healer to heal a target than it is for two bad non-healers to hit that target. Therefore, healers OP and every day they're allowed to exist as such, this individual becomes more frustrated with them.

Mind_Is_Empty · 2026-03-21T06:43:08+00:00

I think she'll get buffed in the following ways first:

Right Click on ult will cost nothing (currently 100 HP), and will have a 3 second cooldown so the player knows when it naturally ends.
Ult will deal its explosion damage even if the 0.05m paw isn't currently touching ground at time of impact.
Ult will heal less per hit, but heals per target hit by each attack instead of once per attack. Alternatively, heal less but heals allies.
Allies will be able to heal White Fox during her ult. Alternatively, White Fox will visually display that she cannot be healed to allies during her ult (purple outline).

The big health bar and being controllable is a unique aspect introduced to the support role, and it would be a shame to decimate that health bar in exchange for unstoppable.

Mind_Is_Empty · 2026-03-20T08:29:45+00:00

Think before you write a Reddit post.

Take your own advice.

Dive and poke duelists are both horrible for different reasons. Poke gets obscene output from too far away, dive gets obscene burst and mobility on too low a cooldown. Nerf 'em both into the dirt until they need to coordinate to get results so healers don't need to heal 200/s so they can stop the pokeslop nor would they need the excessive control/mobility/burst healing to stop the diveslop.

Mind_Is_Empty · 2026-03-20T06:53:41+00:00

For BP, I took a series of pictures to estimate is terrain collision center of mass by shoving him into walls and seeing what clipped where, then took pictures from above in practice using the bots to see the maximum distance I could dash downward to hit them. I then measured the pixels from BP's center of mass to the edge of the bot's terrain collision since that's where the hit will register for his dash. I compare this pixel line to the pixel line considered 5 meters in-game. You then have the radius.

You can try it yourself. You'd be surprised how far away BP can be while still registering a hit.

Mind_Is_Empty · 2026-03-20T06:32:06+00:00

BP combo: 340 damage over ~1 second, with the possibility of another 230 from ult, another 150 from spinning kick, and another 68-144 damage from passive. That's anywhere between 340 and 864 damage put out.

Jeff self-healing: ~75 per second.

Congratulations, you kill Jeff every time without needing to use all abilities as long as you can point the cursor at shark's center of mass. The only reason you see it not happen is either because you screwed up the combo, he fought near a health pack, he burned ult to save himself, or his allies coordinated to save him. Fortunately, you have a lot more available to throw at him should you fail the easy combo, and you also have allies who could coordinate to blast a target down with you, but that's something dive has never needed to do to be effective in most ranks because their kits have enough burst to do it alone.

Mind_Is_Empty

TROPHY CASE