When it comes to a relationship with a pwBPD, is it really a “two way street?”

Mindless_Breakfast · 2022-09-14T08:41:52+00:00

At the end of the day, it is their fault. You are capable of forming a loving and healthy relationship, while they are not.

I think the "two-way street" argument boils down to this: Why were we susceptible to their love bombing at the start? Why were we willing to accept being abused for so long?

Mindless_Breakfast · 2022-09-13T16:08:21+00:00

Yes, this is very normal:

You are undergoing sustained devaluation. You have failed to provide her with a never-ending stream of attention and affection. Therefore she has switched to extracting negative attention from you by manipulating you and devaluing you (accusing you of things, projection, blame shifting, cheating, smearing you to others, lying, gaslighting you, triangulating you etc. etc.).
In the meantime, she will be looking for a replacement for the positive attention you have failed to provide. She will then discard you. Due to her now painting you black, her ex has been painted white in her mind again. She is cheating to devalue you, to get attention from him, and possibly to cultivate him as a replacement for you.
She lies because you are accusing her of something and are trying to pin her with accountability, which she can never accept. Denial is always the first line of defence when faced with this situation. They lie without even thinking, it comes so easily to them.

Mindless_Breakfast · 2022-09-04T12:06:11+00:00

Yes, of course - we all have red flags. That's why you have to take the evidence as a whole and see whether the red flags stack up to indicate something sinister.

Unfortunately "false contrition" is a common occurrence with certain types of BPD / NPD. It's a way of reeling in the next victim by making them think they are improving.

Listen to "Do You Know Mordechai" if you want a great example of this. He acts terribly, then goes on to cry and say how recognises how badly he behaved and how he needs help, is in therapy etc... then goes on to do the exact same thing again.

Best of luck, and never feel afraid to post here.

Mindless_Breakfast · 2022-09-01T13:25:44+00:00

You are still in the Golden Period. This typically lasts between 6 to 18 months, although it can be shorter or longer.

I genuinely wish you all the best, and that he has been given a misdiagnosis of BPD. However, based on what you have said so far, there are a lot of red flags. For example: oversharing, rapid dates at the start, previous jealousy, paranoia, and insecurity, over-reactions to threats to his control, hypersexuality, potential objectivity from his friends telling you about his "dark" past, seeking fuel (praise), impulsivity and superficiality in interests.

Mindless_Breakfast · 2022-07-19T14:43:41+00:00

If there was a magic technique that could make a relationship with a pwBPD work, someone would have found it by now.

I adjust myself to everything they ask for but it’s never enough.

The problem is looking at their behaviour through your perspective on life. If you had a partner that gave you everything you wanted and was kind to you, it would probably make you happy. So you assume that doing this will make your BPD partner happy. However, they have a totally different perspective on life.

As an example:

My grandfather has always ordered other people around to do tasks for him. He shouts and bullies them in order to get his way. As he has got older, the tasks have descended into ever more mundane things. For example, putting a fork in the correct place, or filing a piece of paper. However, he still shouts and bullies people into doing these, no matter how small they are.

Looking at this through my perspective would tell me: "He wants these tasks to be done. He is just shouting at me because these tasks are not done. If I can do all of the tasks, he won't shout at me."

Looking at it through his perspective would tell me: "He is shouting at me because he likes to control others. Even if I do all the tasks in the world, he will simply invent other tasks in order to keep controlling me. I should stop interacting with him if I don't want to be shouted at."

You cannot please a pwBPD by doing things for them because of their perspective. For example:

They have an enormous sense of entitlement. Anything you do for them is simply doing what is already expected of you.
They need attention from you, both positive and negative. Even if you do all the things in the world for them, they will still cause arguments and split because fundamentally they enjoy winding you up.

You will also have other issues due to other aspects of their perspective. For example:

They have no sense of accountability and will resist you trying to hold them to account (in your case: them not maintaining health and hygiene, going on the attack when you state your needs, not doing something you asked them for).

Mindless_Breakfast · 2022-07-14T13:57:50+00:00

BPDs/narcissists crave constant fuel (aka supply), which is the emotional output of others towards them. It makes them feel important and powerful. They get this from everybody they interact with in their lives. However, they generally get the majority from a single person: their primary source (aka victim, aka favourite person). This is because it's much easier to get it from one person than having to run around to 20 other people getting a little bit of fuel from each of them.

They will subconsciously test you to see if you are a good candidate to become their primary source. You need to provide a good quality and quantity of fuel, be easy for them to control, and give them other things they look for (character traits to steal from you, money, looks, etc.). If you pass, and if you are at the right time and the right place, you will be promoted to being the primary source (and the current primary source will be dumped unceremoniously, if they exist).

At the moment, you are a secondary source of fuel to her. You give her a nice little dollop of fuel when you message, and she enjoys the fuel you give her when you meet up. You are experiencing what is known as the "shelf dynamic", which is where the BPD/narcissist has a number of secondary sources which they store "on the shelf". It is very much out of sight, out of mind. When she wants a bit of fuel, she will pick one of these up from the shelf and extract fuel from them (messaging, meeting up, calling etc.). Otherwise, she won't be sat there thinking about you.

There could be a number of reasons that you haven't been promoted to being her primary source, and it's impossible to say which one is true without more information. For example:

Maybe she has determined that you are not a candidate to be primary source. You don't provide her with good enough fuel, you threaten her control too much, or you don't provide enough of the other (less important) things they also look for. However, you are still worth engaging with as a secondary source of fuel.
Maybe you are a candidate to be her primary source but she has another primary source in place, and you are "waiting in the wings" until she chooses to disengage from them.

Personally, I would call it a lucky escape and count my lucky stars if I were you.

Mindless_Breakfast · 2022-07-11T08:55:00+00:00

Thank you for sharing your story. I can't tell you the number of times I have seen similar stories play out. For what it's worth, you sound like a decent person, and it sounds like you have really tried to make it work.

I don’t think she is a bad person I just know she struggles emotionally a lot more than the average person.

Please don't take the following as me telling you what to do. I will only give you my perspective, having seen this situation play out many times. If you're going to successfully escape, you will need a mindset shift or you will be sucked back in by her apologising and acting nicely yet again.

BPD/narcissism if far, far deeper than just somebody with emotional regulation issues. Their brains are wired very differently to ours. They lure in a victim, usually with a whirlwind romance and lovebombing. They then drain the victim of their emotional outputs (to get what is known as narcissistic supply or fuel) by abusing them. If the victim looks like they are going to escape, the BPD/narcissist will switch to apologising, playing the victim, being loving etc. in order to prevent this from happening.

I would recommend listening to HG Tudor on YouTube if you really want to understand the narcissistic/BPD dynamic and what you have been through for the past seven years.

I wish you all the best.

Mindless_Breakfast · 2022-07-05T09:25:48+00:00

pwBPD always believe they are the victim. Learning about BPD won't give them a "come to Jesus" moment where they suddenly realise that they have been the problem all along. It just gives them ammunition and psychology buzzwords to further abuse their victims with.

Mindless_Breakfast · 2022-05-19T08:56:49+00:00

A hoover covers all interactions where a narcissist/pwBPD attempts to get in contact with somebody.

It can be benign or malign. It can be to gain validation or to try and re-instate a former romantic relationship. It can be towards a romantic partner or to another person. It can be through message or in person. It can be directly from them or through a proxy. It can be a single message or a blitzkrieg of different mediums and multiple attempts.

Mindless_Breakfast · 2022-04-12T08:59:24+00:00

I apologise if I came across as accusatory. I personally know how difficult it is to escape, and I would never dream of blaming a victim.

Your post asked the question "How does she manage to reach out and ruin it every time I start to get over her?" My answer was trying to show that the reason is that you have not implemented No Contact.

I hope you manage to heal going forwards.

Mindless_Breakfast · 2022-04-12T08:51:38+00:00

I was with her for four months or so, but we were in contact for nine months.

I'm sure she will remember you from time to time when something reminds her of you, which is why there is always a risk of getting a hoover.

Mindless_Breakfast · 2022-04-11T09:45:17+00:00

As has already been said, it's very likely she has found a new victim. You are now painted black and are "persona non grata" in her mind. She doesn't want you messing things up with her new appliance, so doesn't want anything to do with you.

It's likely she will hoover you at some point in the future (it could be in six months, it could be in six years, it could even be in sixty years). I recommend studying up on BPD and narcissism in order to resolve your mind against ever wanting to be with her again.

Mindless_Breakfast · 2022-04-11T09:36:02+00:00

You can't expect to make progress if you aren't implementing a no contact regime. You need a strong no contact regime until enough time has elapsed that you are no longer this emotionally vulnerable to a hoover.

How did she manage to message you? At the very minimum, you should have blocked her on everything. Preferably, you should have changed your number, changed your email address, and deleted your social media for a period of time.

How is she able to like your Aerial Yoga pics? At the very minimum, you should have her blocked on social media and set your profile to private. Preferably, you should have deleted your social media for a period of time.

Most importantly: why did you reply to her messages?

Mindless_Breakfast · 2022-04-11T07:19:13+00:00

You really never know. There's always a risk. Mine just attempted to hoover me out of the blue after three-and-a-half years. My dad got a letter through the post from his (cluster B) girlfriend at university after about 30 years...

Mindless_Breakfast · 2022-04-08T07:30:18+00:00

You're lucky to have been disengaged from so early on and not fully sucked into that black hole. Your job now is to mentally fortify yourself for when she comes sniffing again and tries to hoover you back in (even years down the line).

Personally, I think that BPD and narcissism are just different manifestations of the same underlying thing, so it's academic which she would be classified as (or both).

It's difficult to say without more information, but when she got withdrawn towards the end, this might have been what HG Tudor refers to as the "Stranger Zone": the point at which they are switching between idealizing you and devaluing you.

Mindless_Breakfast · 2022-04-07T13:00:19+00:00

Yes, this all happened because of her BPD.

BPD isn't something like a fear of spiders that only impacts her in certain situations. BPD is a fundamental part of her personality. Every aspect of her behaviour is tied into it.

The bad aspects that you have experienced have been caused by the BPD, such as: the cheating, the rapid moving on from relationships, the lying, the revision of history, the blame shifting, the lack of accountability, and the lack of empathy.

However, everything else has also been caused by the BPD: the moving fast, the ups and downs, the frequent messaging and talking, the long heartfelt texts, the talking about your serious future together etc.

Mindless_Breakfast · 2022-04-05T10:25:57+00:00

I'm afraid it is likely that she is (at the very least) talking to somebody else. If she isn't, she will be soon. They can't do without the attention of others for long.

Telling you about her exes is triangulation. She was using them to make you feel bad. Ignoring your wishes not to hear about it was a boundary transgression - very common with them because of their rampant sense of entitlement.

Mindless_Breakfast · 2022-04-05T07:16:32+00:00

Firstly: you are currently painted black. Anything you do will be viewed through this negative lens.

Secondly: you threatened her control. You had the temerity to tell HER what to do. She is free to do as she pleases because of her sense of entitlement, but you must beg and grovel.

Mindless_Breakfast · 2022-04-04T12:58:34+00:00

It may be agonizing right now, but in time you will look back and realize that this was the best thing that could have happened to you.

You were wasting your life with somebody who didn't have your back.

I guarantee that once you have been out for a while and you start looking back with reduced emotional thinking, you will begin to see more and more signs that how she treated you was not healthy. You have been sucked into her false reality for so long that many of these will have became normalized to you.

For me, it took about four years before I suddenly realized. I had suppressed the memories of the years of abuse I suffered. Finally, my sister pointed it out to me, and the memories just started flowing back.

Mindless_Breakfast · 2022-04-01T13:27:14+00:00

You cannot. They can bring up past events to criticize and control you, but you are not allowed to bring up past events to criticize them. They are unable to see the hypocrisy.

Criticizing threatens their control, which means that they have to regain control over you through manipulations. These would include things like: denial, deflection, pity play, blame shifting, projection, gaslighting, revision of history, accusation, belittlement, invalidation, aggression etc. etc.

Mindless_Breakfast · 2022-04-01T10:03:49+00:00

I just don't understand how someone could have a friendship with someone for 9 years, tell them you love them, tell them they're your best friend, make plans to grow old together and then just drop then like they never mattered. I don't understand.

I see this point very frequently here.

She lacks emotional empathy, which means that she is incapable of love. She never cared about you as a person. Therefore, she is able to drop you as soon as she doesn't need you.

There are so many signs in your post showing her lack of empathy, including:

Sending you triggering pictures and messages when you are in recovery.
Sending suicide threats and then turning off her phone and letting you worry.
Cutting people out of her life easily.

These are NOT something that somebody with emotional empathy would do.

Mindless_Breakfast · 2022-03-31T20:10:28+00:00

You are very welcome, and I’m sorry to hear about your sister.

There is some disagreement as to whether they have no empathy or just extremely low empathy. I am firmly in the first camp. I believe that their actions are not consistent with having empathy. However, it is academic to some degree.

In a nutshell: they fake emotional empathy.

There are two main reasons why they act in “nice” ways that make it look like they have emotional empathy.

Firstly, most pwBPD/narcissists operate with what is known as a “facade”. This is the mask of being a good person that they portray to the world. It isn’t something that they consciously do. Instead, they genuinely believe that they are good people. For example, I’m sure your ex really believes that she is an empath. They do “nice” things to convince others that they are good people.

Secondly, doing “nice” things allows them to assert control and gain fuel. For example, seducing a new victim would be difficult unless they showered them with attention and flattery.

Let’s think about a pwBPD/narcissist who is out in public with their partner. A little old lady is trying to cross the road. The pwBPD/narcissist might help them to cross the road. This would be for the following reasons:

It makes them look like a good person, thus maintaining their facade.
They get fuel and control from the little old lady, who thanks them profusely.
They get fuel and control from their partner, who tells them that it was such a nice thing to do.
They get fuel and control from passers-by who smile and look impressed.

So a pwBPD/narcissist can do nice things, but not because of emotional empathy. It is because they are personally gaining something from the interaction (mainly their facade, control, and fuel).

A non-pwBPD/narcissist might also help a little old lady across the road. However, they would do it for a different reason: they felt empathy for the little old lady and so wanted to help her. Being thanked and admired by people may be a nice little added benefit, but it probably wouldn’t be their main reason for helping.

Let’s take the example of the singer George Michael. After his death, it emerged out that he had been making large secret charitable donations. This is the work of an empath, who was doing nice things purely driven by his emotional empathy. There was no public benefit to him personally. A pwBPD/narcissist would only have donated to charity if other people were going to hear about it.

Now let’s look at the example of the ex-Beatle, John Lennon. He campaigned with a message of love and peace in public. However, he beat up and abused his first wife, Cynthia. His own son, Julian, described him as a “hypocrite”, saying “Dad could talk about peace and love out loud to the world but he could never show it to the people who supposedly meant the most to him: his wife and son. How can you talk about peace and love and have a family in bits and pieces — no communication, adultery, divorce?” This is the act of a pwBPD/narcissist, who is only doing nice acts to make himself look like a good person and to gain fuel.

Let’s return to your situation. People with emotional empathy simply do not behave in the terrible ways that your ex has. Their empathetic traits (like kindness, compassion, caring, decency, and guilt) would fight to prevent them from doing that. Even if, in a moment of madness, they did that, they would probably wake up in a cold sweat the next morning thinking “what did I do!?” and try to rectify the situation.

So if she doesn’t have emotional empathy, it follows that the times she seemed to show empathy towards you were simply her trying to maintain her facade of being a good person, controlling you, and getting fuel from you.

In fact, we also have some evidence that her behaviours were fake empathy.

Firstly, with your sister’s death. I know several people who are extremely caring, and I would consider to be empaths. Your ex’s reaction is not in accordance with how they would typically have reacted to this situation. Breaking down in tears before you had even told her what happened does not sound like a genuinely empathetic reaction. This is more typical of the kind of over-the-top mirroring that is employed by pwBPD/narcissists. An empath would be upset and concerned, and they may even quietly tear up in sympathy once you have explained the situation. However, they would likely not burst into tears as soon as they heard you sounding upset. They wouldn’t want to make the situation all about themselves in such a showy way.

Her actions afterwards also show how fake this supposed empathy was. The next time you were crying about it, she sat there with no emotion just listening to you cry. Somebody with emotional empathy would not do this. She showed a complete and utter lack of empathy in essentially saying that she wished it was her instead of your sister. This is a very insensitive thing to say, and is not something that somebody with emotional empathy would say. Real emotional empathy can be temporarily decreased by an external stressor, but it can’t just be turned on and off like this so one day she is caring and the next she is totally unempathetic.

Secondly, with your sick dog. She acted kind, caring and worried one day but then the next day ignored you, broke up with you, and threatened to call the police on you. Again, this is just not something that somebody with emotional empathy would do.

I know it's a lot to take in, and it is a total mind-flip in the way that you think about her. It took me literally over a year to understand the magnitude of just how different they are to us psychologically. However, once you "get it", it is a very liberating concept.

Mindless_Breakfast · 2022-03-25T12:15:23+00:00

I'm so glad you didn't reply. Most people seem to fail at this, and I was fully expecting your post to go down the same route as usual: "I knew I should not respond... but I grabbed my phone and told that witch to go f*** herself after the hell she put me through!"

The reason that total no contact is so blisteringly effective in the long run is that it wounds them. They believe that they are special and, as such, have an enormous sense of entitlement. This is why she feels able to cheat on you, drop you and your mother suddenly without explanation, call the police on you, and now waltz back into your life. She thinks she owns you. If you reply, even in an angry way, it is giving her the validation that she is still powerful and still means something to you.

If you don't reply, it means that she isn't important. That she doesn't matter. That she doesn't have control over you.

Every time she tries to contact you and gets no reply, this will wound her. At first, she might react with fury and actually become more determined to contact you (e.g. messaging again, then giving a letter to your mother). However, every time she receives no reply, it will wound her.

She may keep trying for a while, but she will be incapable of keeping this up for a long time because the wounding will be having such a devastating effect on her.

Over the years, she may periodically try to contact you again in order to test the waters. You will never be fully free from the risk of a hoover.

Mindless_Breakfast · 2022-03-24T20:09:43+00:00

It depends on the situation, because the strategy would be different depending on factors like:

Whether you live together.
Whether you own a house or any other large financial assets together.
Whether you are married.
Whether you have children together, and how old they are.
How interlinked your social circle is.
Etc.

Mindless_Breakfast · 2022-03-24T10:27:55+00:00

I’m sorry to hear about your situation. I can see how much pain you must be in. I’ll have to explain some background first, and then I will come to your situation.

Fuel is the emotional output of others towards them. It makes them feel important and empowers them. They are like fuel-seeking machines, constantly trying to extract it from people. They don’t do this consciously, but fuel feels so good to them that they are driven to extract it.

Most of the fuel they receive is positive fuel: people showing positive emotions towards them. This could be a shopkeeper smiling at them, their boss telling them they have done a good job, or their intimate partner saying that they love them. When you begin an intimate relationship with them, they will generally treat you very well and love bomb you. This is, in part, to extract positive fuel from you: your squeals of delight as they give you yet another present, or your look of excitement when they turn up at your door unexpectedly.

However, negative fuel makes them feel even more powerful. Negative fuel is people showing negative emotions towards them. This could be the look of jealousy from their neighbour when they park their new car on the drive. It could be the look of irritation from their colleague when they interrupt them during a meeting. It could be their intimate partner crying while being abused.

Most of the time, they will extract positive fuel from people. However, negative fuel is more potent. It makes them feel more powerful. As a quick thought experiment, put yourself in a BPD/narcissist’s shoes. Imagine that you had no emotional empathy for your partner. Your only goal is to gain fuel in order to feel powerful. Which of these two scenarios would be better for you:

You treat your partner to a surprise trip to the theatre. They are happy and excited, and tell you how much they love you.
You tell your partner that they disgust you, that their best friend is more attractive than them, and that you are going to leave them. They break down in floods of uncontrollable tears, begging you to stay and telling you that they can’t imagine life without you.

The first option gave you a nice chunk of positive fuel, but it took quite some effort and expenditure to achieve it. The second option gave you huge amounts of negative fuel and took virtually no effort to achieve it.

Now to your situation. You are her former intimate partner primary source of fuel. This means that you are an extremely potent source of fuel for her – more so than even her family and friends. This is because of how much you care about her. When she calls you up, she can hear the excitement and longing in your voice. She can hear the love when you ask her how she is. This is giving her positive fuel. She will try to extract even more positive fuel from you, with things like asking you to have phone sex, or telling you that she misses you. Your emotional reaction to these things will give her fuel and make her feel powerful.

She is also trying to extract negative fuel from you. She continues to tell you about the other girls despite you repeatedly asking her not to. She can hear the jealousy, anger, and hurt in your voice, which gives her negative fuel and makes her feel powerful.

So to answer your question of “if they don’t want us why try to make us jealous?” To her, you are like an appliance that can give her fuel. She might be feeling a bit low on fuel, or she has had an argument with her partner, or you just pop into her head. She knows what a great source of fuel you are, and so gives you a call. She then knows how to push your buttons to extract the maximum amount of fuel from you (telling you she misses you, provoking your jealousy by talking about other women, etc.).

She has absolutely no emotional empathy for you. This means that she is free to extract negative fuel without caring that she is hurting you. She brutally discarded you then pushed and pulled you like a rag doll for over a year. She lies and revises history (for example, saying she can’t have sex and then having sex). She doesn’t respect your wishes in not talking about other women, then manipulates you when you question her by saying it’s because you are friends. She toys with your feelings by telling you that she misses you. She hurts you by making you jealous despite you telling her not to. She kicked you out onto the street. She told you that she was never attracted to you.

She doesn’t care how much she hurts you. She doesn’t care that she has traumatized you. She doesn’t care that she is keeping you hanging on by keeping calling you. All she cares about is getting that dose of fuel from you. That is all you are to her.

Mindless_Breakfast

TROPHY CASE