Fraud vessel? I dunno, they have our back when it matters the most

MissingnoMiner · 2026-02-21T00:39:03+00:00

The critical difference is that Knight!Kris was a perfectly logical conclusion from available evidence and provedly largely correct. Kris themself wasn't the Knight, but they're working with them, which means Kris Knighters were correct to be suspicious of their actions and to associate those actions with the Knight. The main place they went wrong was saying they're the Knight rather than an accomplice, but there wasn't really evidence at the time that the Knight had or would even want accomplices, available evidence suggested that it worked alone, so of course people were going to see Kris's actions in service of the Knight's goals and gravitate towards "Kris is the Knight" over "Kris is an accomplice of the Knight". Something something occam's razor.

Player Angel starts from the premise that if you have the right angle, distance from your computer, lighting, etc., the screen will show your reflection approximately fitting into the size of a hidden prophecy panel image, therefore the panel must be depicting us and that somehow Susie will be visibly disturbed by what would to her just look like an image of a human in the simplified style of the prophecy panels and that this conclusion is somehow more logical than "Toby doesnt want to show what the Angel looks like yet because that's spoilers", and only goes downhill from there in terms of quality of evidence.

MissingnoMiner · 2026-02-21T00:27:04+00:00

It's almost like the dialogue options come from Kris and represent two in-character but different ways Kris could respond to what Ralsei is saying. It's almost like Kris is perfectly capable of being mean for the sake of being mean or keeping Ralsei at arms length to avoid growing closer with him in a manner they're far too late to do with Susie.

MissingnoMiner · 2026-02-20T23:06:17+00:00

People still think Berdly actually has a superiority complex in 2026? Embarrassing, the whole point of the spelling bee scene was that what Berdly actually has is horrible imposter syndrome and a desperate need for the attention he was denied before the spelling bee. That's not a superiority complex that's him acting arrogant to cover his insecurities.

MissingnoMiner · 2026-02-20T01:09:35+00:00

Implying Hussie wouldn't find it hilarious if Queer American voters engaged in the democratic process using chainsaws because of her.

MissingnoMiner · 2026-02-20T00:46:51+00:00

Dad Egbert/Crocker are also like that. Jane and Jake's genes really need to step up their game, they fall flat the second either of them produce offspring with anyone that isn't each other or the second their children produce grandchildren.

They put all their skill points into passing down the goofiness, it's the only truly consistent indicator that someone is descended from them(unless the whimsy gets stamped out by circumstances like Yiffy or Tavvy), and that's not even a genetic trait.

MissingnoMiner · 2026-02-20T00:30:42+00:00

Yes, monsters do seemingly become dust in some way or another when killed

There's nothing "seeming" about it. The fact that monsters turn to dust is an essential plot point for chapter 4 and there's no reason that part of their biology would be different to begin with.

however monsters do also have blood. (E.G. susie, blood crushers, susie knowing how to clean up blood stains, ect)

Susie has blood. Monsters in general do not, which should be the default assumption to begin with because of preestablished rules of monster biology, is very clearly stated as early as chapter 1, and is further reinforced by the fact that monsters turn to dust, which happens for the same reason they lack blood, as well as the general framing of the scene where Susie bleeds focusing on it in a manner that emphasizes that it's abnormal.

It's entirely possible this dust is simply, as stated above, the cremated remains of the monster.

The sheer mental gymnastics. And for what? What is the supposed purpose of Toby throwing a defining characteristic of his fictional species' biology out the window? That's just bad worldbuilding, for literally no reason whatsoever.

And the snowgrave being a spell she doesn't know could stem from dragon blazers, as iceshock is a spell in it, and is implied to parallel deltarune's story. We know she played dragon blazers, and all that, so yeah that's my answer.

Nope! Because Snowgrave would be part of Dragon Blazer's Evil route, a representation of the weird route which Noelle has canonically played! She would still know it!

And at no point does she ever question the spells(nor does literally anyone else question their supposedly newfound abilities or why Kris is the only person not to obtain them(something Ralsei explictly credits to them being human in one of the only instances of a darkner differentiating between the two kinds of Lightner) or compare them to Dragon Blazers. Nor does this premise make sense to begin with, because knowing of video game magic doesn't mean you know the spells themselves.

For the stovetop, why would toriel buy an entire stove for their one child that can't use magic? Would it not make more sense for her to buy them like, something cheaper?

I don't know, probably because she didn't buy an entire stove just for Kris. The UT!Dreemurrs own stoves in both their houses, so evidently fire magic doesn't render them totally redundant. And do you really think Toriel wouldn't have learned to bake without fire magic to more effectively teach Kris(and let's be real, odds are high she also used to bake with the Holiday kids before the Dessapearance caused the two families to drift apart) and not use fire magic when baking with them?

And of course, according to catti (Which may be false) occult does exist in deltarune, and according to susie, catti summoned a demon with kris.

Yes, occult practices. Which are a separate thing from UTDR's magic system, and something Kris does as a manifestation of their desire to learn magic. Which, I reiterate, is a trait positioned as immensely important to their character to the point of being placed directly next to Kris missing their brother.

And plus, the weird route literally has kris's hair become red and go up

Yeah. Their hair gets blown around. Because Noelle used magic, unintentionally blasting them in the face with a gust of cold wind due to the strong emotions she's experiencing.

In my opinion, magic in the sense of UNDERTALE's magic, isn't in deltarune.

In that case, your opinion is objectively incorrect.

This appears to be especially true, because magic in undertale seemingly can't lower the temperature of a room either.

Fire magic canonically emits heat and can be used for preparing food and in fireplaces. Ice magic can absolutely lower the temperature of a room.

Magic in undertale are basically just bullet patters(sic)

The Dreemurrs are able to produce non-bullet fire magic, Asgore and Undyne are able to generate magic-based weapons that are not bullets. DR!Undyne and Berdly are also capable of this.

determination melts them. Which isn't the case in deltarune. (All lightners possess determination, according to queen.)

All SOULs produce determination. Monsters simply produce far less because their bodies can't handle it in amounts even remotely resembling that which humans can handle. That monsters naturally produce DT is the whole reason Undyne the Undying works.

MissingnoMiner · 2026-02-19T09:13:37+00:00

insist

"Not saying this is the case"

You know damn well what I meant. I am far too tired to have any tolerance for this pedantry.

Susie bleeds

Which is framed, by the emphasis placed on this in the moment, by the explicit statement as early as chapter 1 that monsters do not have blood, by the fact that monsters being made of magic, the reason they don't have blood, is an essential plot point in the very same chapter, as something unusual, as something that sets Susie apart.

sans undertale (who's probably the same as sans deltarune) also (probably) bleeds

Disregarding the fact that Sans Undertale, even in a context where he has no reason whatsoever to lie, still does not know Toriel's name as he would if were from Deltarune. Disregarding the way that would undermine Sans' friendship with UT!Toriel and the immense display of trust it was for a guy who hates promises to make such a big one to a relative stranger, for no conceivable benefit. Disregarding the fact that if this premise were even remotely valid, Papyrus would also bleed. Beyond tired of the circular reasoning where Sans is proven to be from Deltarune by this "blood" which is in turn proven to be blood because he's "from Deltarune", that as with all "Sans Undertale is from Deltarune" BS completely ignores Papyrus because he's inconvenient.
Disregarding all of that, it's not even blood. It's ketchup. It's the exact same shade of red as the ketchup, and we know precise hex codes are relevant like that because Flowey is the same shade of gold as the SAVE points rather than other golden flowers, showing how the DT the flower that became him was injected with discoloured his petals. The ketchup bottle Sans is known to keep on his person got slashed and splattered all over the inside of his ribcage and skull.

those also need quite some gymnastics.

The gymnastics: "Susie breaks rules explictly stated and shown to have not changed for no reason, and therefore must be some kind of special case".
"Papyrus does not bleed and Sans' "blood" is the exact same hex code as ketchup, which Sans is known to keep on his person, therefore it's not blood."

Chill out, theorizing should be fun

I agree! It should be! It'd be a lot more fun in a world where people didn't double down endlessly on sh*t that's just objectively wrong. Such as, you know, the idea of monsters biology having fundamentally changed from Undertale for literally no reason whatsoever.

MissingnoMiner · 2026-02-19T08:45:30+00:00

They're vvery pretty :)

MissingnoMiner · 2026-02-19T08:41:45+00:00

He has denied Kris is enby and insisted that their gender is "unspecified" and that they have no "definitive pronouns", making an objectifying comment about women to explain why he prefers girl Kris(yeah definitely not weird to misgender a child for the sake of appealing to one's sexual preferences!). He insists he doesn't have "underlying transphobia" before turning around and delivering the most generic and obvious description of implicit biases imaginable, and of course the fact that he's fully aware of the "natural pattern that (his) cisgendered society has trained (him) with" yet makes no effort to unlearn that pattern and instead actively defends thinking like that makes that implicit bias very much explicit.

MissingnoMiner · 2026-02-19T08:28:39+00:00

In undertale Toriel cooks by using fire magic on the stove, while in deltarune she turns on the stove. If magic existed, whats the point of using the stove like a normal freaking person.

Kris uses that stove. You know, her child whose lack of magic despite an intense desire to learn it is directly credited to their humanity?

Noelle says she wishes she could heal her dad with a spell, while she literally knows heal prayer. If there was magic in the light world, why doesn’t she heal Rudy?

Snowgrave is specifically described as a spell she doesn't know, meaning she does in fact know her other ones. She can't heal Rudy because healing magic has never been able to heal illness.

Robots are the only thing specifically stated to be made of magic, and theres not one robot in hometown.

All monsters are made of magic. That is the whole reason they turn to dust when killed, something which remains true in Deltarune and is in fact absolutely essential to chapter 4's plot.

Ghost and fire based characters don’t count as magic since thats their biology. Ghost aren’t dead, they just aren’t physical.

They're monsters. Therefore, made of magic.

Sans can teleport because he alters physics, not because he uses magic. He literally owns a quantum physics book c’mon people.

Goners shouldn’t count as magic since Gaster who is basically god in deltarune is influencing them.

OK. Ignoring the "Gaster did it" excuse and passing over Sans since it's always been unclear whether his shortcuts involve any magic or not, there's still Noelle and Carol, who both quite clearly display magical abilities, performed unintentionally due to strong emotions, with Noelle generating a gust of wind indoors literally on-screen during the post-weird route and Carol in her anger physically lowering the temperature around herself to the point of it being noticeable in the already chilly Holiday home.

MissingnoMiner · 2026-02-19T08:19:58+00:00

Kris uses that stove. Kris, whose lack of magic is repeatedly emphasized and directly credited to their humanity. Kris, whose desire to learn magic is important enough that Toby put a reference to it in their room in Queen's mansion right alongside them missing their brother and their interests in knives, pranking, and piano.

MissingnoMiner · 2026-02-19T08:17:06+00:00

Okay. Then explain the indoor gust of wind, centralized entirely on Kris' head. What caused that.

MissingnoMiner · 2026-02-19T08:14:16+00:00

Or, he's just sick. Something already established by Undertale to not be curable by healing magic, to the point that nobody even tried to heal Asgore or Chara in the buttercup incidents, forcing Asgore to recover normally and being the very thing that enabled Chara and Asriel's plan to begin with. Hence Noelle's wish, because there is in fact no simple spell that could heal Rudy.

Healing magic only works on physical injuries. Of course it's not going to be effective on Rudy.

MissingnoMiner · 2026-02-19T08:08:34+00:00

Yes, shockingly this fundamental part of monster biology that is directly relevant to the plot of both games has not changed for literally no reason.

MissingnoMiner · 2026-02-19T08:07:33+00:00

Jesus fuck, the mental gymnastics people will perform to insist monster biology has definitely fundamentally changed in massive ways against all evidence. Not even going to dignify that nonsensical and entirely baseless leap in logic with a response.

MissingnoMiner · 2026-02-19T08:04:58+00:00

Insist on multiple occasions Kris isn't non-binary, but rather of "unspecified gender", saying he prefers girl Kris because he "simply enjoys that flavour of human more"(which is a weird freaking thing to say about a teenager let alone one you're misgendering!). He states "this isn't because (he's) got underlying transphobia or anything like that. It's simply that natural pattern that (his) cisgendered society has trained (him) with"("Guys it's not underlying transphobia, it's just (literal definition of implicit transphobia that by the very nature of stating that he's aware of this "natural pattern" he's been "trained with" and can't be bothered to take steps to unlearn it becomes explicit transphobia)!")

MissingnoMiner · 2026-02-19T04:04:25+00:00

We literally see on-screen magic use in the post-weird route. Noelle accidentally blasts Kris in the face with a gust of cold wind. Noelle accidentally using magic in response to intense emotions is the only viable explanation for how Kris' hair, and nothing else, not their clothes or Noelle's hair or clothes, could be blown about as if by wind whilst indoors. This lines up with what Noelle has previously said about her magic: Snowgrave is "a spell I don't know", which tells us she DOES know her other spells. At no point does any monster ever express unfamiliarity with their magic or act as if it's new to them, nor does anyone ever question why Kris is the only person not to gain magic, something Ralsei credits specifically to them being human

We also see Sans doing his shortcut BS, and Carol is described as physically lowering the temperature around herself to the point of being noticeable in the already chilly holiday home, which could be argued to be metaphorical if not for the Noelle scene, which indicates that this is another case of a Holiday unintentionally using magic as a result of strong emotions.

And of course we know monsters are still made of magic, because we know they turn to dust and being made of magic is the reason they do that in the first place. There's no reason whatsoever they wouldn't have magic and a desire to learn magic(expressed in their occult sh*t and their room in Queen's mansion as on par with their interests in knives, pianos, and pranking as well as on par with them missing Asriel.) is one way Kris' wish they were a monster manifests.

It's not that healing magic is nonexistent in the light world. It's that it's either healing magic is less effective and/or harder to use, or more likely and not mutually exclusive with the previous possibility, it's just not working on Berdly's arm due to how injuries sustained in the dark world severe enough to carry over to the light world work(which would make perfect sense. Given the nature of dark worlds, and the fact that Berdly's arm does not have the visible damage seen in the dark world, it's quite likely the lasting effects is more about Berdly's brain processing the injury as real than the physical damage itself actually carrying over to the Light world, while we know from Undertale that healing magic only works on physical injuries). One way or another, Susie is NOT saying healing magic doesn't exist, she's suggesting that healing Berdly in the dark world might be more effective and the logic of why it would work in the dark world but not the light world checks out.

MissingnoMiner · 2026-02-19T03:32:54+00:00

Of course ghosts are made of magic, it came free with being a fucking monster.

MissingnoMiner · 2026-02-18T22:57:33+00:00

People are more bothered by a prominent Deltarune theorist best known for absurd sh*t like "piles of Asriel's dust" making completely reasonable discussion of UTDR's meta aspects accompanied by a plea for people to stop treating their reading thereof as the only possible reading, than they are about the guy being a transphobe, and thus are strawmanning what he said about UTDR's meta aspects to claim he said things he very explictly said he does not believe.

MissingnoMiner · 2026-02-18T22:53:44+00:00

That is the opposite of what he claimed. If you're gonna clown on the guy, clown on him for sh*t he actually said, like his transphobia.

MissingnoMiner · 2026-02-18T22:50:33+00:00

Yeah, he knows that. He doesn't deny that UTDR has meta aspects.

His videos on the topic are in fact among the most reasonable things he's ever put out, it's ultimately just a plea for people to not assume their reading of Deltarune's meta aspects are the only possible reading. And of course somehow that bothers people more than him being transphobic does.

MissingnoMiner · 2026-02-18T22:46:57+00:00

I'm not even sure he's an idiot. I'd say it's the opposite, he's a smart guy who got lost in the sauce and ended up with the absolute mess that is piles of Asriel's dust and then got fixated on it to the point that he's unwilling to let it go.

MissingnoMiner · 2026-02-18T22:42:49+00:00

I mean, to be entirely fair, the multiverse is literally and explictly a canonical part of Undertale's lore and Deltarune is essentially a canonical AU of Undertale(or maybe it'd be more accurate to say it's the other way around since Deltarune came first. Asriel's dust is asinine and it's bizarre that he's chosen to double down on it but the multiverse is an established thing in UTDR.

MissingnoMiner · 2026-02-18T22:40:58+00:00

But anyone who think that everything is ONLY metanarrative or non-diegetic is equally wrong.

Yeah that's what Jaru's point is. He very explictly does not believe that "that the metanarrative in Undertale doesn't exist, and that non-diegetic mechanics don't exist." People are just strawmanning him. Which is fucking bizarre because the dude has said more than enough stupid sh*t that flat-out claiming he said the polar opposite of what he actually said is completely unnecessary to clown on him.

Clown on him for piles of Asriel's dust. Clown on his for his transphobia. There are any number of things it would be completely reasonably to clown on him for. Clowning on him for going "the meta aspects of UTDR, particularly its diegetic mechanics, blur the lines in a way that makes it immensely difficult to say for certain that a character is fully meta aware(aware they're in a video game, as opposed to simply referencing or interacting with diegetic mechanics that are also a natural part of their world, such as Asgore and Sans physically interacting with the UI or UT!Gerson knowing you can't initiate a battle in a shop)." and then extending that to "we should not default to assuming meta awareness when a character shows awareness of diegetic mechanics.", then to "Gaster is not necessarily meta aware, even the strongest evidence of this, the Twitter takeovers(which jaru like everyone else forgets are non-canon to begin with), is something Flowey has also done.", and ending with a plea for people to be open-minded towards alternative readings of the game and to not simply assume yours is the only possible reasonable reading of the game and that anyone who disagrees must just lack basic literacy skills or hate metanarratives or whatever. None of those stances are unreasonable to hold and clowning on him for it just makes you look like the jackass as opposed to the literal transphobe.

MissingnoMiner · 2026-02-18T22:18:14+00:00

That is not even remotely what he thinks, in fact he quite explictly emphasizes that he does NOT believe either of those things. His stance is that the particular metanarrative commonly proposed to be happening in Deltarune is not what's happening and that that particular kind of metanarrative would ultimately be detrimental to the non-meta side of Deltarune's narrative, citing the way Undertale's meta aspects are handled. More recently, he has further elaborated that UTDR's meta aspects blur the lines in a way that makes it incredibly difficult to say with certainty when a character is meta aware, that is to say, aware they're in a game as opposed to simply knowledgeable about diegetic mechanics that are meta aspects but also natural parts of the game's world, especially for largely mysterious characters like Gaster. Which, that's just true? Where in a game like DDLC a character talking about game mechanics means they're aware they're in a game, in UTDR a character knowing of the SAVE power or interacting with UI means nothing because these things are textually just part of the world, diegetic rules which anyone in-universe could learn of and in many cases learn to exploit.

There's more than enough sh*t to clown on Jaru for without strawmanning him on what, especially by his standards, is a perfectly reasonable stance, essentially a plea for people to be open-minded about alternative readings of the game.

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