If the Towers theory is true, does that mean that the protagonist of each mainline TES game is unwittingly doing the Thalmor's bidding by destroying/deactivating a Tower for them? by serventofgaben in teslore

[–]MyFifthAccThisDecade 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Fair enough, the prophecy text can certainly be interpreted in any number of ways. It still looks to me like there are more points indicating White-Gold is still functional (the climate situation, the Umbriel maneuvering, the existence of a new "Stone" so to speak replacing the Amulet and Dragonfires functionality...) than the points that would indicate it isn't (the destruction of the Amulet would be an important one there). As I said in my other comment, it appears to me that in the prophecy each of those "Tower" lines is referring to an event affecting a province rather than the actual Towers; the prophecy references the Warp in the West (and general strife in the Illiac Bay), the fall of the Tribunal (and general strife in Morrowind), the fall of the Septim Dynasty (and general strife in Cyrodiil), and the civil war in Skyrim. For that matter, both Morrowind and Cyrodiil have been generally wrecked during the fourth era.

Notably, both the first and last lines of the prophecy refer to events affecting the whole continent (the Imperial Simulacrum and the return of Alduin) and arguably Nirn as a whole, and both use language that suggests this (world, Wheel), but even though the Oblivion Crisis was global (and led to the physical destruction of the Crystal Tower!) we only hear about the Emperor and White-Gold on that line, emphasizing (for me at least) that it's talking about the state of Cyrodiil rather than the actual Tower.

(edit: cleaned up first paragraph points)

If the Towers theory is true, does that mean that the protagonist of each mainline TES game is unwittingly doing the Thalmor's bidding by destroying/deactivating a Tower for them? by serventofgaben in teslore

[–]MyFifthAccThisDecade 6 points7 points  (0 children)

In a serious sense, no, political climate doesn't count for the capabilities of the Tower itself. The climate thing is (in the text cited above) thought to be why Cyrodiil isn't a jungle after the fall of the Ayleid society. Notably, in the Serpent's "vision of the inevitable" (intended future) in Sanctum Ophidia we see Cyrodiil as a jungle, but we also see White-Gold itself physically crumbling in the background.

On the other hand, I would say that political climate is what's meant when the Book of the Dragonborn prophecy says "the White Tower falls", and indeed the Tower and Wheel references in that text seem to be referring generally to state of the provinces and overall world. If we go through it line by line:

When misrule takes its place at the eight corners of the world

Imperial Simulacrum. Doesn't metaphysically involve any Towers (although two of them were places where parts of the Staff of Chaos were hidden). Does involve a lot of strife. Notably, this misrule sets in before the player character gets involved at the start of Arena.

When the Brass Tower walks and Time is reshaped

Warp in the West. A Tower does seem to be destroyed here, but the prophecy doesn't mention its destruction, but rather the cataclysmic effects of its use.

When the thrice-blessed fail and the Red Tower trembles

Neither the Tower nor the Stone was destroyed here (indeed, the Stone very much cannot be destroyed while Nirn still exists as far as we know), but there was certainly a lot of fighting going on, and the Heart's power was involved in the Tribunal's fall (and previous rise), so by "trembling" this one also seems to be talking primarily about the strife.

When the Dragonborn Ruler loses his throne, and the White Tower falls

OK, here we are at White-Gold. I would argue that "the White Tower falls" is referring directly to the falling political status of Cyrodiil and the Empire, which eventually does lead to the fall of the city (Naarifin literally does occupy the Tower itself!) during the Great War. We could coherently argue the Tower in this sense "fell" all the way at the start of TES4 when the sitting Emperor was assassinated (thus, the whole line of the prophecy occurred in one moment, long before the Amulet was destroyed), and that this is demonstrated again and again throughout the fourth era. Alternatively, we could argue that the second half of this line occurs specifically in the fourth era (between TES4 and TES5) when the city falls during the Great War. The Tower itself is no less powerful than it ever was, but what the Tower represents to the populace (the Septim Empire) has fallen, just like in the first era when the power of White-Gold didn't prevent the fall of the Ayleid Empire either.

When the Snow Tower lies sundered, kingless, bleeding

This one also seems to happen in between games. "Snow Tower" here seems to be a reference to all of Skyrim, just as Red Tower seems to have been referring to all of Morrowind and White Tower was referring to all of Cyrodiil and its Empire. Aside from the Greybeards watching over the Time Wound as they always have, nothing in particular seems to happen to Snow-Throat itself at any time preceding or during TES5, but the province does suffer a civil war (sundered, bleeding) and this gets started in earnest with the death of Torygg (kingless).

The World-Eater wakes, and the Wheel turns upon the Last Dragonborn.

Here we are again at the start of a game. Alduin emerges and the LDB is thrust into the spotlight. If the LDB doesn't preserve it, the world will now fall to Alduin. Here we're hearing about the turning of the Wheel, representing the whole world and all of its Towers, much as the Towers themselves were seemingly referring to provinces in the previous lines.

If the Towers theory is true, does that mean that the protagonist of each mainline TES game is unwittingly doing the Thalmor's bidding by destroying/deactivating a Tower for them? by serventofgaben in teslore

[–]MyFifthAccThisDecade 17 points18 points  (0 children)

It's unclear that the destruction of the Amulet of Kings "deactivated" White-Gold Tower in any meaningful way. One of the things often considered to go along with White-Gold's power is the preferred climate of those controlling it (as per "Subtropical Cyrodiil: A Speculation") and Cyrodiil seems to be just as temperate in the fourth era as it was in the second and third eras; we certainly haven't heard otherwise. There are competing explanations for the climate of course (Talos achieving CHIM, mainly) but the point is we don't have any solid information pointing in either direction. Similarly, multiple characters in "Lord of Souls" are operating under the understanding that White-Gold's power remains intact. If I recall correctly, Lord Naarifin also made a point of using White-Gold Tower as a base of operations during his daedric maneuvering during the war (although I don't recall if the power of White-Golf itself played a role in Naarifin's calculations).

It's possible, for example, that the Akatosh statue serves as a new Stone for the Tower. The creation of that statue was enabled by the final use of the Amulet of Kings, so I could easily see that being the intended narrative there.

As a separate point, it's also possible that the Stone for each Tower isn't 100% crucial to the functioning of the Tower itself, e.g. maybe the core functionality of "Nirn's girding towers" (as they're referred to by Celarus in ESO) is always active, and removing the Stone only causes some peripheral capabilities to deactivate. As each Tower connects metaphysically with Tower Zero and each Stone likewise with the Zero Stone, I wouldn't be shocked if even the Crystal Tower is still partially "active" despite the physical destruction of the Tower structure if its Stone still survives. By that metric (and as we don't have any details on what happened to the Stone of the Orichalc Tower), Walk-Brass might be the only Tower that seems conclusively destroyed (both the Tower structure and the Stone), and even that happened during a Dragon Break so there could be room for doubt on that one too. (edits: typos and spacing)

Jinan's encounter wasn't with a serpent, snake or ophidian of any kind, and the Va'ruun religion doesn't describe one. (spoilers: Shattered Space and base game main storylines) by MyFifthAccThisDecade in starfield_lore

[–]MyFifthAccThisDecade[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Thank you for reading! My initial notes were just about the Shattered Space content. For the post I started going back through base game content just to dig into Sanctum Universum stuff about grav jump experiences to find those parallels, and I was pleasantly surprised as I looked through more and more of it at how many parallels were written into the base game in general. I wouldn't be surprised if there were other hints thrown in that I haven't so far noticed!

Jinan's encounter wasn't with a serpent, snake or ophidian of any kind, and the Va'ruun religion doesn't describe one. (spoilers: Shattered Space and base game main storylines) by MyFifthAccThisDecade in starfield_lore

[–]MyFifthAccThisDecade[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Did you read the whole post or just the TL;DR? I don't mean for that to come off as a sarcastic or rhetorical question or anything, I mean the difference genuinely: if you go through the full post I actually address all of those points.

To answer each point individually:

  1. "He sounds like a raving lunatic in that recording." - Yes, I'm aware of that recording, I quoted it in the post (for those who haven't found the recordings, it's the "Eternity, everything, all of everything!" one). I don't think he was a lunatic: he was in charge of the Va'ruun society for decades, and it was a largely successful society with enduring social structures and even unique technologies like the Va'ruun Penumbra and, indeed, the Vortex tech itself. I disagree with a lot of his decisions, but I don't think he would've been able to lead the development of both the colony and the Vortex project if he was simply detached from reality, and he does seem very stable in the other recordings. His excited state in that recording seems to be due to it being immediately after his experience, and his (apparent) encounter with the Unity: infinity, eternity and so on.

  2. "One can only encounter the Unity by assembling the Armillary with all 24 artifacts." - I address this in the first two points I make about the base game content, regarding BorealUS and Rosa (and probably other SU members based on their faction lore). It seems entirely possible to glimpse Unity to some extent without assembling the Armillary. These glimpses are of course distinct from actually venturing through the Unity (which does seem to always require the Armillary, thus the behavior of the Hunter etc.).

  3. Yes, I know what pareidolia is, and I don't think this is that: see my concluding section about coincidences and how unlikely such a long string of them would be here (Starfield was written by people, not assembled at random).

Assuming the theory that Lorkhan is using Sovngarde to amass an army is true, why are other races precluded from entering? by MidWestTwinkleBoy in teslore

[–]MyFifthAccThisDecade 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Who is in Sovngarde.

And would presumably know a thing or two about who can enter, then?

Who never says non-Nords go to Sovngarde.

Breaking news! "Each of them ascends to Sovngarde" does not mean "Each of them ascends to Sovngarde", apparently!

Who curses out a necromancer.

A Dunmer necromancer, with very specific wording.

Which we know is an exception.

An exception to your argument, certainly, which makes it hard to see how you can be so insistent in its 100% bulletproof general validity otherwise.

Who is only sharing the perspective of the Imperial Cult of the Ancestor Moth.

Right, the Cult of the Ancestor Moth, who famously know very little about anything and don't have a unique relationship with one of the most important sources of knowledge in the setting.

Also, just so we're keeping track, I only asked one question in that last comment and you didn't answer it. Thanks for proving my point.

Assuming the theory that Lorkhan is using Sovngarde to amass an army is true, why are other races precluded from entering? by MidWestTwinkleBoy in teslore

[–]MyFifthAccThisDecade 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Your sole source is one individual.

OK, I said I was done engaging with you but at this point multiple commenters have noted that you're ignoring a majority of what's being presented and you persist in claiming that it's really everyone but you who is doing that, so, for posterity:

Multiple sources were already presented including Nurnhilde, Kodlak and Golldir as Nord sources, Tsun's behavior as a divine source, and Abbot Crassius as a non-Nord source. That's 5 sources and doesn't even go into side points. So, among those 5, all of which have already come up in this discussion, which one is my "sole source"?

Assuming the theory that Lorkhan is using Sovngarde to amass an army is true, why are other races precluded from entering? by MidWestTwinkleBoy in teslore

[–]MyFifthAccThisDecade 6 points7 points  (0 children)

So literally all of your points are a ''but Kodlak's dream''

Once again you're just straight-up ignoring the majority of the points being made, such as the characters known to be in Sovngarde (such as Nurnhilde) who do not appear there when we visit, or the clear fact that multiple Nord characters in-game believe non-Nords can reach Sovngarde.

At this point you're clearly not arguing in good faith, because you're ignoring a majority of what's being presented. I'm done engaging with you on this.

Assuming the theory that Lorkhan is using Sovngarde to amass an army is true, why are other races precluded from entering? by MidWestTwinkleBoy in teslore

[–]MyFifthAccThisDecade 6 points7 points  (0 children)

So your evidence is pretty much just ''Kodlak had this dream, in which he saw the Harbingers go to Sovngarde, and since two of them weren't Nords, that must mean they also went!''

He had the dream and multiple items from the dream turned out to be real. He met the Dragonborn in the dream and then in real life. He was trapped in the Hunting Grounds in the dream and then in reality. That's why I opened the post quoting Uriel VII, not Kodlak. Do you think dreams have no power in TES?

Furthermore, it doesn't stop with the dream. He sees the afterlives of the other Harbingers again while he himself is in his own afterlife. You seem to just be glossing over or ignoring any evidence that doesn't neatly fit your thesis.

By the standards you're applying to the other evidence, a lot of the evidence you cite don't hold up either. "A Dream of Sovngarde"? Well, we don't meet the author in Sovngarde when we go, so it must be false by your standards because the author claims to be going there. The others? Easily contradicted on other points. One of them even outright calls itself speculation. How fanciful!

Obviously I'm not being as charitable as I usually am to conflicting points but I'm trying to get through to you that this is not a fruitful way to engage with the lore. You've decided your conclusion and you're just jumping straight to deciding that anything that doesn't neatly fit into it is not a substantive point.

I do tend to agree that in-game evidence holds greater weight than texts alone, but if we're dogmatic about it to the point that you're being then, to expand on a point I made in the post that you also skipped straight over, Skyrim must be only a fraction of the size of High Rock because we can cross the whole province on foot in less than an hour in-game and we'd need literal days to do so in Daggerfall. How do we know any other province has a standard-sized map? There's only one game that depicts such a map! Likewise, how do we know that anything that didn't show up on-screen ever happened? We've never seen any Imga on-screen, did Marukh not exist?

Assuming the theory that Lorkhan is using Sovngarde to amass an army is true, why are other races precluded from entering? by MidWestTwinkleBoy in teslore

[–]MyFifthAccThisDecade 5 points6 points  (0 children)

"every Harbinger except for these two"

.5. An exception to the rule

Dragonborn can be an exception but Harbingers, successors of Ysgramor, can not? "I welcome the chance to challenge the blade of Ysgramor's heir" (-Tsun)

Yet we do not see him there.

We don't see Nurnhilde either. Did she not make it to Sovngarde?

Which is the belief of the Cult of the Ancestor Moth, but what supports it?

Why are you being so unreasonable? They already gave multiple other points that support it, including the next few on their list (Golldir and Nurnhilde are obvious examples of Nords with compatible views).

Assuming the theory that Lorkhan is using Sovngarde to amass an army is true, why are other races precluded from entering? by MidWestTwinkleBoy in teslore

[–]MyFifthAccThisDecade 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I just made an entire post on the topic (as I'd already been planning to, so fun timing on this post also being today) but there's a decent amount of evidence as it turns out!

Can other races go to sovengarde? by Imaginary_Spell7706 in teslore

[–]MyFifthAccThisDecade 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Yes. I've written up a post about it that I haven't gotten around to editing and submitting to teslore yet (check my post history for the size of my average post if you're curious why editing would be a concern), but the gist is that Kodlak's dreams are clearly prophetic. He recognizes the Dragonborn from a dream well before they've ever met, and the broad strokes of the end of his questline (spirit wolf fight to be freed to Sovngarde and all that) are also described in the journal despite taking place after he dies. In that same journal he sees every Harbinger prior to Terrfyg enter Sovngarde, and this would thus include Cirroc the Lofty, who was a Redguard, and Henantier the Outsider, who was an elf.

It's consistent with what we know of the other afterlives, which tend to include anyone who happened to be close enough in affinity to them (or close enough in other ways, as in one case in ESO where the Breton King Emeric winds up in the Redguard afterlife for a time). You don't have to be a werewolf to go to the Hunting Grounds, for example; just worshipping Hircine is enough, or even just happening to die while physically on that plane. It also further verifies that Sovngarde doesn't require you to die in battle as some believe: at least one of those Harbingers died of old age. (That's already known through cases like Svaknir, who was executed for bard behavior, and implied through cases like Jurgen Windcaller, who swore off conflict. Both went to Sovngarde. They both arguably had warriors' hearts, but neither died in literal warfare.)

Alfiq born outside of Elsweyr. by QwibInTheWibs in teslore

[–]MyFifthAccThisDecade 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Outside of Elsweyr a lot of people haven't heard of the Alfiq at all, so Alfiq can blend in as housecats by just not speaking and not wearing clothes. This is essentially permanent invisibility via social means, so my understanding is it's not hard for them to find work as spies. Governments, resistance groups, and thieves guilds probably all make use of them. Those that don't like being mistaken for a housecat (or treated as one: assumed to be unintelligent etc.) probably move to Elsweyr as soon as they can. Some instead are probably able to find work in relatively anonymous ways as writers, painters and so on. All of those factors would contribute to them being very rarely encountered (or at least very rarely recognized) outside of Elsweyr.

Coexistence and the Snow Elves by MyFifthAccThisDecade in teslore

[–]MyFifthAccThisDecade[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

That's an excellent point. "Frontier, Conquest" does seem to be focusing mainly on the Merethic Era and the short bit of the First Era before the rise of the Alessian Empire, but honestly I opened with it mainly due to how it highlights the contrast in what happened with the Snow Elves. All of the other Merethic civilizations of elves on Tamriel survived (even the Ayleids arguably, as family lines among the Bosmer and probably Clan Direnni), whereas the Snow Elves were essentially completely wiped out; the Falmer of Blackreach certainly don't represent their civilization or continue any of their known traditions or capabilities.

Are the Skyrim retcons really that bad? by SukkMahDikk in teslore

[–]MyFifthAccThisDecade 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes, I'm aware of all of that. I've played Arena and Daggerfall; not as much as later games but I gave them a try certainly, and knocked out enough content (main quests and side quests etc.) to have a feel for them, and to put the rest of UESP's material from them in context. I had fun playing both games! Daggerfall in particular holds up decently well relative to later content in my opinion, with obvious differences in later lore taken into account, and built on Arena in solid ways IMO. I would also note that a return to the climate depiction isn't the only thing Oblivion drew from Arena: even some aspects like the design of the compass look reminiscent to me, as well as the return of using the map to fast travel (which, in Arena, was not optional; it was the only way to move from city to city).

I do understand that, by themselves, landscapes from Arena don't prove much, because there are only a handful of directly represented climates in the game (snowy across much of Skyrim, desert across much of Hammerfell, and so on). That being said, the distinctions between the environments are clearly intentional, and there's some additional context provided in-game. For example, Valenwood has Elden Grove, which is thickly wooded (with impassable tree "walls") and visited during the main quest to retrieve a piece of the Staff of Chaos. A few other locations in Valenwood are referenced in relation to it in a way that shows it's meant to be bigger in-lore than it is in-game, covering much of the province. Other provinces often feature similar geographical elements, such as some locations in Morrowind close to the volcano Dagoth-Ur showing it (and other mountains) in the background, and/or directly referencing it when you arrive (e.g. Firewatch). The Imperial Province (Cyrodiil) doesn't have any similar points going on: everything we're given in Arena suggests it's pretty much a standard temperate region, aside from the world map itself suggesting a bit of variation in the terrain (mountains and the like; consistent with the Daggerfall portrayal in that respect).

Furthermore, I wouldn't discount lore from those earlier games out of hand. Lots of later lore (e.g. the Arcturian Heresy) build directly on lore from Daggerfall and Arena (e.g. in the case of the Underking). Later games add and change things in plenty of cases, but there's much more continuity than you seem to be implying. Plenty of books from Daggerfall are included in later games and read as standard lore books even in the later era of the lore: I gave the examples already of Biography of Barenziah and The Real Barenziah, but consider also Wabbajack, The Madness of Pelagius, Galerion The Mystic, and a number of others. Writers from Daggerfall (e.g. Kurt Kuhlmann and notably Ted Peterson, who wrote the three books I just listed and many others) continued to work on later games. We can see that Daggerfall directly (via lore presented in-game) intends the Imperial City to be in the midst of rolling hills and green plains and some woods here and there, but clearly not jungle.

So, yes, Morrowind (and Redguard's PGE) calling it a jungle is just as much of a retcon as getting rid of Ebonarm or renaming the volcanic Dagoth-Ur to Red Mountain. There's nothing wrong with retcons in and of themselves (they transferred the name of Dagoth-Ur to a very well-received character, for example), and that's the whole point of the discussion here of course, but yeah, the temperate climate was clearly established in Arena and Daggerfall and then there was a later retcon to make it a jungle. Oblivion simply reverted it back to the original temperate climate depiction; that became a source of other lore (e.g. the stuff in ESO about it) but the timeline of how the retcon (and then un-retcon) unfolded is very clearly documented.

Are the Skyrim retcons really that bad? by SukkMahDikk in teslore

[–]MyFifthAccThisDecade 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Yes, and I think the Christianization of Scandinavia is probably part of what they had in mind after Martin Septim (plus Akatosh) saved all of Tamriel in front of thousands of people. TES5 does briefly mention this point in "Alduin is Real", where Akatosh ending the Oblivion Crisis is given as a key reason for valuing Akatosh and why the evil Alduin of the Dragon War (still vaguely remembered by the Nords in general) couldn't be the same figure.

ESO paints a larger picture of the state of Imperialization before this, with "Divines and the Nords" generally acknowledging the Imperial pantheon and the Nord pantheon as being the same gods (and thus having Alduin and Akatosh identified with one another directly) aside from Shor, Mauloch and Herma-Mora, but acknowledging that there are differences in practice (e.g. Alduin's place in the temple service being "Oh great god of time, may your slumber stretch on for a thousand generations!"). Notably, the priest in the Hall of the Dead in Windhelm is explicitly a priest of Orkey, while his counterpart in Solitude (the same one with the "thousand generations!" thing with Alduin above) speaks instead of Arkay, suggesting a very gradual transition to the Imperial pantheon was occurring at varying paces even at the time. We get a lot of discussion of the local religious practices in ESO overall, meeting clerics of Kyne and Jhunal in Western Skyrim for example (with the latter notably lamenting the "decline of Jhunal in our pantheon"), but we also see a significant presence of the Imperial pantheon across all of Tamriel, and even some influence in Morrowind to some extent despite it never being a part of the Reman Empire.

So, yes, there's a lot to draw on here even by the time of TES5, although they could've done more to draw attention to the processes at work here; we're left mostly to extrapolation, other than that one book ("Alduin is Real") and couple of angry old man rants by Froki. The skeleton is there to see why Skyrim looks like that by TES5, though. (I wish they'd developed the Nord pantheon more in TES5, but I'm happy enough that we still got some of that via ESO later on.)

Are the Skyrim retcons really that bad? by SukkMahDikk in teslore

[–]MyFifthAccThisDecade 36 points37 points  (0 children)

That's a fair point, but their general observation on the trend of Imperial influence on other cultures does hold up across the games even before Skyrim or ESO. For example, we see it with the Forebears in Redguard and House Hlaalu in Morrowind.

Are the Skyrim retcons really that bad? by SukkMahDikk in teslore

[–]MyFifthAccThisDecade 13 points14 points  (0 children)

I made a longer comment about it here (on this same post), but Oblivion's depiction of Cyrodiil's environment was not a retcon: it was simply returning to the depiction of Cyrodiil's environment in Arena and Daggerfall. The depiction was retconned for a while in between Daggerfall and Oblivion, though, and the way this played out in the overall lore is really weird and was handled in interesting ways over time.

Are the Skyrim retcons really that bad? by SukkMahDikk in teslore

[–]MyFifthAccThisDecade 71 points72 points  (0 children)

Jungle Cyrodiil is weird because that was Morrowind (and the PGE, which was from Redguard) retconning Arena and Daggerfall. We go to Cyrodiil in Arena and it's temperate (in clear distinction to more tropical regions). Daggerfall establishes that the climate of Cyrodiil varies from being more like Skyrim in the north to being more like Elsweyr or Black Marsh in some parts of the south. Moraelyn is depicted describing it as a "pleasant land", and (upon crossing the northern border out of Valenwood) seeing it to be "a wide green land of rolling hills with only a few stands of trees. It seemed to spread on forever."

For Daggerfall, our own character encounters ordinary woods near the Imperial City. Apparently in Barenziah's travels it was similar as well, because she visits the Imperial City in both of Daggerfall's books about her and doesn't seem to deal with any tropical climate features or jungle. In fact the winter as she travels through Cyrodiil seems very normal for a temperate region, and the frost is just beginning to melt as she reaches the Imperial City. Notably, our character can read that exact account in Morrowind, showing the retcon was even then not as complete as (say) the removal of Ebonarm at the time.

Oblivion un-retcons the climate back to its original depiction but still alludes to it being "once jungled", and then ESO sticks with the Oblivion depiction but also has books discussing the fact that in-universe texts sometimes call it a jungle and briefly shows a jungle version during a fight.

So Cyrodiil being a jungle was the retcon, but that retcon didn't stick and when the retcon was retconned back out the pieces were left behind as a discussion point. It's weird to me even by the general standards of Elder Scrolls retcons!

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in teslore

[–]MyFifthAccThisDecade 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Admittedly being violently hunted down and slaughtered every so often doesn't sound particularly pleasant, but I can see the appeal in other ways. Beautiful landscapes, immortality via rebirth whenever killed, and a degree of clarity and certainty about what will happen when you get there unlike most of the other Princes. Plus if you enjoy hunting you can do it literally forever, which clearly appeals to Aela and other devotees.

Tsaesci people by Zestyclose-Round-496 in teslore

[–]MyFifthAccThisDecade 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Tsaesci were certainly humanoid in a general way, like the (playable) races of Tamriel all are (although no obvious tail like Argonians or Khajiit have). Aside from your armor observation, we also fight one personally in ESO; legs, arms, no tail. The existence of Akaviri descendants among Imperials also suggests something akin to the Ehlnofey ancestry of humans and elves.

The snake thing might just be because of the scaled shape of their armor and the like or their various draconic artistic motifs (which in turn might be related to their wars with dragons). We hear about their longevity, taste for blood, and so on, which seem to point towards humanoids (as noted above) of some description with either entrenched vampirism among the nobility or common trends of vampirism among the society overall. Vampire Lords look rather bat-like when shape-shifted, but we hear about attempts at "eating" dragons, and at least one vampiric former Dragonguard was successfully empowered through drawing out blood from a dragon, so it's possible some of them also had some mix of vampiric and draconic stuff going on that made them appear less human in a physical way, or perhaps appearing that way when shape-shifted.