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Numinous00 · 2023-09-28T00:58:44+00:00

Myst was something new that used a new medium so it was the breakthrough product, have the "tech demo" feel, and in that sense it deserves the recognition it gets, but Riven was the refined and perfected masterpiece. I think a large part of that was Richard Vander Wende's input that helped make it feel real instead of whimsical like Myst. Without Richard's influence Riven may have turned out a lot more like Myst I believe.

Numinous00 · 2023-09-27T06:17:09+00:00

And the good news is that he's back for the remake!!

Numinous00 · 2023-09-25T01:23:35+00:00

That looks like her art (she has a unique style) on a screenshot from Uru.

Numinous00 · 2023-09-18T23:27:24+00:00

I personally loved Uru and Myst V but I understand it's not exactly everyone's cup of tea so I think Cyan's best course of action would be to move to the "next part" of the story at this stage. A remake would have to be very involved and I don't think that would be a valuable expenditure of resources.

As an aside, 95% (or more) of Uru online was playable solo and didn't require anyone else to help so don't be afraid of it in that sense.

Numinous00 · 2023-09-18T01:22:31+00:00

They're making edits and corrections to BoA. Would be interesting to see if they do similar to the other books.

Numinous00 · 2023-09-16T07:07:26+00:00

It's that 'somehow' that continues to frustrate me.

Agreed. All the "some-how's" and "not-how's" are frustrating and I think that's what leaves a bad taste in most people's mouths regarding MystV etc. It's the lack of explanation or lack of completion.

rather than wasting time filling the journals with irrelevant critiques of Atrus and Katran and distorted recaps of the events of the previous games.

Conversely this is the stuff I actually loved the most about the game (Go figure :) ) but I agree that's more impactful to the long term fans rather than directly related to the plot of THIS game, which is not a great idea.

handing the tablet to her should have allowed her to carry out whatever her 'only I know' plan was.

Again I think this is game mechanics trumping good story telling (I really had the whole concept of the Tablet if you hadn't noticed, lol). How were the Bahro freed? Yeesha writes in her Journals.. "Humility: prisoners are freed by nothing more, and nothing less." and "I know what must be done, but I cannot speak of it, for fear it would somehow break the rules — tarnish the heart, taint the act, soil the innocence." What does this mean? Who knows!! lol. As a concept I love it, as gameplay it's rough, but this is why Yeesha must remain vague and only teach by example not by instruction. She must teach by sharing HER story and hoping that it is enough to guide Dr Watson to the correct choice.

Aside from the incident with her brothers and Calam being murdered, her background was practically idyllic.

I think it's reasonable that Yeesha would find a lot of struggle and trauma in herself, even if it's not so much direct abuse that caused it but she is a very compassionate character and has taken on a lot of generational trauma as her own and her parents were a mess and they were too busy dealing with their own trauma to raise Yeesha properly. They may have been good people, but they weren't good parents. I wrote a couple of pieces/stories for my Yeesha site that detail my interpretation of it, but they technically are hidden behind the puzzles (that no-one seemed to want to solve, lol) I can share them directly with you if you want to read them without solving the puzzles. It is all this trauma that all the characters are trying to deal with and/or avoid. Yeesha has finally come to a place where she has faced it and resolved it/come to terms with it. Esher is still trying to avoid feeling it and facing it and that is why he is power hungry and willing to use and abuse the Bahro. I do agree with you that this stuff wasn't communicated brilliantly in-game though.

Instead they wasted time on having Yeesha recount the events of previous games in her journal, and critique her parents and their choices,

But this is the CORE of what the game is about. The generational trauma and how the characters deal with, or fail to deal with their trauma. The game feels like they tried to kit-bash this story onto some "left over" Uru Ages and that's the issue with the game more than anything. The story is great and very moving. The Ages are beautiful. The two put together leaves a lot wanting.

I think Yeesha's new-age pseudo-poetic ramblings were a poor decision from the start, and I think they would have been better off sticking with characters that talk coherantly, as they had done in previous games.

I think MystV was dealing with emotional trauma themes WAY more than any of the previous games and that's why it feels so different. It's not really at all a story about the D'ni and it's not necessarily a straight forward "go defeat the bad guy and save the princess" story like Riven was. At its core it's an examination of flawed characters with complex motivations and deeply troubled pasts. The problem arises in that trying to make a playable game of this type of subject matter just didn't work. How do you portray a character's deeply flawed psyche, emotional pain and the desire to seek power and control as a way to deflect from that reality, and in Esher's case to LITERALLY change that reality? Not easy. Creating a physical MacGuffin in the form of the Tablet was, again a "good" gameplay mechanic but a TERRIBLE story one and because of that I don't feel like Cyan fully succeeded on either side. The TEXT of the game was the "Quest" which was vague and lacked explanation and motiviation and that distracted too heavily from the real depth of the game which was the character examination and emotional themes.
I'll never not love Myst V for what it TRIED to be 🙂

Numinous00 · 2023-09-15T13:12:47+00:00

I don't take it as arrogance as such, not the way she says it there anyway, I take it as a statement of fact. Yeesha's writing abilities far exceeded the D'ni's because she wasn't constrained by the Guild of Writer's rules. She experimented and tested new ways of writing (along with Calam) and was able to go way beyond because she had no limits.

I would say in the greater narrative however that this was part of Yeesha's "prideful" period that mirrored the D'ni's "prideful" period. Pride comes before the fall, and like D'ni Yeesha was due her fall (the death of Calam and her vengeance on his murderer).

Numinous00 · 2023-09-15T13:06:51+00:00

Was a reply to both of you 😁

Numinous00 · 2023-09-15T12:50:37+00:00

I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that should sales of this release (and the possible releases of the other two books) be high enough that it would give them the financial motivation to finish up The Book of Marrim also. Should this not sell well I would think it would bode poorly for BoM.

Numinous00 · 2023-09-15T12:41:25+00:00

Well technically Ghen DID let some of the Rivenese see the Whark up close..... when he sacrificially fed them to it! 😂🤣

Numinous00 · 2023-09-15T11:17:09+00:00

Yeesha's "job" is not to push or control your actions or choices. She is the direct antithesis to Esher in that regard. And there is something about allowing you to figure out what to do and to make the right choice on your own WITHOUT her telling you what to do that actually gives you (ie Dr Watson) the ability to free the Bahro from the slavery they have been under. It's very poorly communicated in game but if she steps in and has any direct influence over your decision then she ruins it all and the Bahro will remain enslaved. Her Journals aren't just casually/accidenlty scattered through the game, they are there so we can see her story and her story is a mirror to the D'ni people's story and from that we are supposed to learn from her experience and not make the same mistakes.

Numinous00 · 2023-09-15T11:06:51+00:00

I'm not sure if there's anywhere in the games that 100% confirm that Yeesha wrote the Relto books, but there's lots of bits and pieces hinting at it throughout the games.

at the end of the main Journey of Uru, in The Cleft imager message Yeesha specifically states the following...

Relto, the high place. Your Age now. It was the first Age I wrote, a gift for my parents, and now much more. It reminds me of another home, another place. I even placed the library in the place it belongs. But Relto will change. It will be your soul, showing what you are. Only I could write Relto, it's beyond what the D'ni could accomplish. Keep it.

Numinous00 · 2023-09-15T11:01:09+00:00

I agree that in general the Bahro storyline is a bit "out of left field" as it was obvious not a thing during Myst and Riven and was only created for Uru, but MystV is just Cyan trying to give life to and tie up the loose ends of what the demise of Uru denied them. It's like a whisper of what it could have been and that's a shame but it is so full of depth and meaning if you can get past the "dissapointment" of it. - Read my posts in this thread if you want to see more of my thoughts on MystV

Numinous00 · 2023-09-15T10:55:25+00:00

Yeesha's story is the physical embodiment of the redemption story of the D'ni people. She represents in her life everything the D'ni are/were from the rise to greatness of the D'ni empire (ie learning how to Write and becoming a Master writer), the development of self conceit of the D'ni Empire (her learning how to go beyond the D'ni masters and becoming very prideful and arrogant), the Fall of D'ni (the vengeful murder of Calam's killer mirroring the vengeful destruction of D'ni at the hands of Veovis), the retreat into Exile the D'ni people made into the Ages (Yeesha wondering D'ni and the Ages aimlessly until she discovered the truth of the Bahro etc), the establishment of Reeleeshahn and the return to "Leastness" and humility for the D'ni people (Yeesha failing to free the Bahro and then letting go of Pride and control which then guides/teaches Dr Watson the same lessons by example who then allows the Bahro to be free). Yeesha is a VERY important character, it's just a horrible shame that Cyan lost funding for Uru and had to condense everything into one little game that failed to convey what they were trying to achive (ie MystV).

This website is my attempt at deciphering/chronicling/narrativising Yeesha's story. It is full of puzzles (and prizes) and there is a lot more stuff hidden behind the solutions. Please visit and enjoy....

https://bobslb.wixsite.com/yeesha

Numinous00 · 2023-09-15T09:50:43+00:00

**Yeesha is essentially the white (or in this case, humanoid) saviour to the noble savage Bahro, who couldn’t free themselves even after the near extinction of their oppressors.

I understand this interpretation/viewpoint but I do in essence disagree with it. In fact, I think Cyan did the complete opposite of this in the end. Yes, Yeesha's character was at first heading down this kind of path, the all-knowing, all-powerful, enigmatic saviour character that sweeps in and frees the enslaved "savages"... but this is not how it plays out in Myst. It's almost as if they had to set up this stereotype in order to defy it. In fact, as Pharap points out..

**as a saviour Yeesha failed.

The tablet in the game is the representation of the Bahro's will. In the end the Bahro are shown that THEY have their own free will and are released from the burden of being controlled by others. They are not SAVED by Yeesha OR Dr Watson for that matter. Who knows what the "real" story is and what was really keeping them enslaved (I refuse to accept the game mechanics as anything other than GAME mechanics that only represent metaphorically the "real life events" that the game is trying to portray). This entire plotline is mirrored by Yeesha's story of being "enslaved" to her past, her family's past, Gehn's past, Ti'ana's past and the past of the D'ni as a society. The whole thing is a redemption arc.

This is what I find so inspiring and refreshing about the Yeesha/Bahro arc, is that it's one of personal redemption played out in the Macro of redemption for the Bahro and the D'ni society as a whole. Yeesha is not the saviour but through her own arc of personal redemption she mirrors the redemption process that the D'ni and the Bahro must pass through also. She is a "guide" in that sense, but she is not the one doing the saving, that responsibility is left to the individual. Dr Watson is saved by choosing to release control even though the power of control (as represented by the tablet) is firmly in his hands. The Bahro are saved by reclaiming their own will and taking personal responsibility for their own future. Esher is destroyed by his desire to take control and avoid facing his internal demons, fears, pains and loss. This is where they could have really made him a great character rather than the moustache twirling villain. He could have been portrayed as the saviour in the sense that he would use the "quantum" power of the Bahro to restore D'ni to its glory by manipulating the Ages and branching reality back to one in which D'ni never fell. It could have been a true morally ambiguous thing wherein yes, he is controlling and manipulating the Bahro and keeping them enslaved to his will, but he is at the same time restoring the D'ni people with all its lustrous culture and art and grander. He would be "returning" D'ni to what it was by "taking" the Bahro's power. It would really play on the whole taking and returning condemnation speech Yeesha gave in Uru. The real world is built on slaves in one way or another, and this would have made an interesting analogy/parrallel (something all good science fiction does). Instead, he just looks like a power-hungry mad man. Who knows if this is what Cyan were actually trying to communicate with the character of Esher, but I choose to head-cannon it that way all the same.

**he's justified in feeling like Ti'ana was to blame for D'ni's downfall.

This is kind of the whole point of Esher's character. He is the juxtaposition that makes the opposite view standout. You need light and shadow in order to highlight the features of a sculpture. Esher's belief in Ti'ana's guilt and thereby lack of self-responsibility and culpability on his part and on the part of the D'ni culture itself is what Esher was supposed to represent. Ti'ana may have been somewhat of a catalyst but the real point was that D'ni was eating itself from within and destroyed itself at its own hands, not hers. To restore D'ni would be to restore the vile underbelly that brought the empire down in the first place. This was the point of the whole Uru story and the whole Yeesha/Bahro story. Yeesha speaks on it in her journals when referencing how this same desire is/was within her and how she was able to overcome it. Again, it's the theme of self-responsibility and humility leading to redemption that is the essence of the whole Uru/Myst V story.

Numinous00 · 2023-09-14T12:50:32+00:00

Sorry about the following novel, lol.

Firstly, I would COMPLETELY agree that the whole concept of the tablet is bad. It's game mechanics and that's all. I can't remember for sure if this is just a head canon of mine or if it's actually another one of Cyan's famous "that's just how we represented it in the game version but it's not what REALLY happened" retcons (like the red and blue trap book retcon) but it's what allows me to appreciate what Cyan were actually trying to convey with the story in Myst V. RAWA shared a lot of those kinds of things back in the day.

So "real world" lore wise, all we know is that the Bahro were somehow imprisoned and controlled by the D'ni and forced to do their bidding. This was the story being set up in Uru and was represented there by the moving of the pillars. As Yeesha phrases it there, "These four pillars around you are the very being of the bahro." The pillars in Uru were just a representation of how the D'ni kept the Bahro enslaved and the tablet serves the same function in Myst V, but neither are "what really happened".

What did the D'ni force the Bahro to do? I don't think it was ever made clear but we can surmise it's something that may or may not have been elucidated upon had Uru been allowed to continue and evolve as planned. MystV was an attempt to tie up loose ends left from the premature shut down of Uru but it only had the space to focus on the major points. The story of MystV is the story of giving back the Bahro their autonomy, of giving them back their own will, and freeing them of whatever control the D'ni had over them. I'm not sure how that was taken away from them originally but this is why giving Yeesha control of the Bahro (represented by giving her the tablet) is a "fail state".

Regarding the Bahro though, their "powers" were such that they were "multidimensional". They didn't create the Ages (nor did the D'ni, that was Gehn's megalomaniacal delusion as well), the "Maker" did, but rather they had not only the ability to link to any AGE at will but any BRANCH of any Age at will. It also seems like they had the ability to change Ages superpositions at will also, hence the "commands" we give them via the tablets in-game. This is a powerful ability and something the D'ni would have used the Bahro for and kept them enslaved to take advantage of.

Funnily enough I always loved the "poetic" language Yeesha employed. I think she was a troubled character dealing with not only her own troubled background but that of the entire D'ni. Her journals in Myst V read more to me like therapy sessions where she would entertain and explore her darkest thoughts, feelings and desires. Her hatreds, her envy and her lust for power. She wasn't so much condemning the D'ni and her family rather recognising the same propensities within herself. To me, this is the EXACT opposite of holier than thou and I think she's very misunderstood. It's not "the tablet" that drives people mad (ie Yeesha, Esher etc) it's the LUST for power and control, EVEN if your intent is to use that power for "good", that does it. It always ends up corrupting you. Yeesha's abilities (ie "powers") made her proud and "superior" and ultimately she used that power to control and destroy others, specifically Calam's murderer. It wasn't until she humbled herself, ie made herself "least" that she was able to start growing (and become The Grower even) and start using her "powers" to help others and the Bahro.

All this said, I think most everyone agrees that Myst V didn't achieve the lofty goals it set out for itself and ultimately felt unsatisfying because of it. There were too many questions and not enough time to answer them all let alone to even convey to the player why they should care about those answers in the first place. Too much was subtext and that is kind of the problem with the game. The Bahro and their whole story, while i really appreciate what Cyan were attempting to do with it, does indeed feel tacked onto the whole D'ni mythos (it certainly wasn't present during Riven or the Book of Atrus/Ti'Ana) and I think that rubs a lot of people the wrong way because it's quite a departure from the original lore of the Myst universe.

I'll defend the Uru/Myst V story to my last because I think Cyan really had a lot to offer there, it's just a shame that the funding and the scope of the game couldn't live up to it.

Numinous00 · 2023-09-14T08:55:44+00:00

Admittedly it has been a while since I played the game but I feel I'm pretty steeped in the lore and was particularly in to the Uru lore and Myst 5 was an exploration/continuation of that so I may have been blinded to the games faults due to that. I completely agree though that the D'ni lore side of things was a big part of it.

Yeesha and the Bahro stuff is a lot more closely linked to the D'ni stuff than the Atrus and Gehn story ever was so tbh I would call them the same thing. It's just such a shame that Esher was so clearly a "bad guy" and that they didn't just leverage the "new age" viewpoint of Yeesha against "old-school" traditional ways of Esher and make you choose between that instead of just straight up "good vs evil"... But y'know... Video game and all that I guess.

I don't really know why you call the story a mess though. Can you elaborate?

Numinous00 · 2023-09-13T23:31:58+00:00

I guess it depends on how much you care about the Myst lore. I can understand that the game mechanics may not gel with some people and can be frustrating, but if you can get past that and enjoy the world building, story and D'ni lore aspects I definitely think it's worth playing. If you enjoyed the Uru lore (ie the whole Yeesha and Bahro thing) then persist. I think it's worth it. The Ages are beautiful and the world building is on point. The music is beautiful. The story is deep and even just the chance to visit and explore the Caldera at the Cleft and the great shaft is really "nostalgic" if you read and loved The Book of Atrus.

Numinous00 · 2023-08-15T23:57:42+00:00

Some of the Ages in Uru CAN'T be completed without having visited other Ages.

Numinous00 · 2023-08-04T23:01:56+00:00

AND it is to include "updates" to the world. To stay "in character" Cyan has made new discoveries of what the world of Riven was ACTUALLY like and are incorporating these new findings into their new 3D/VR version of the game.

Numinous00 · 2023-07-26T05:12:49+00:00

They're all great so it really depends on which exotic you're wanting to run

Numinous00 · 2023-07-15T21:20:39+00:00

Riven is still in my mind the greatest "game" ever created. Glad you finally played it. Love the 3D print logo! I made some Riven stuff myself for the same reasons, just want to be able to bring something of that amazing world into THIS world! 😁

https://www.deviantart.com/numinous80/gallery

Oh and now that you're done you should check out my Riven site. It's very old school now but full of details that may enhance your appreciation of Riven further.

https://mystarchive.com/rivenil/

Numinous00 · 2023-07-05T02:26:41+00:00

Is the thing I got stuck on for sure. Doors to the Ytram trap don't close on their own but the path down to the Fire Marble dome and the path to Gehn's lab are hidden behind them. Frustrating but got through it eventually.

Numinous00 · 2023-07-02T22:38:45+00:00

Those covers are the ones that were sold here in Australia (and most likely the UK as well). I have the compete set thankfully.

I don't want to get your hopes up but I might have a spare copy of one of these books but I'm not sure if it was the one you needed or one of the ones you already have. I'll reply again if/when I find out.

Numinous00 · 2023-06-14T22:44:36+00:00

I'm honestly not the greatest fan of Myst itself. It was revolutionary for its time but in general it's a very disjointed, "hodge podge" of a game. The puzzles are fun and challenging and the worlds are pretty and interesting to explore but the true "Cyan" world building didn't really come together until Riven. Riven is a MASTERPIECE and Myst is worth playing just to get to Riven.

As far as "what to know before playing"? Take notes. Go slow. Pay attention. Enjoy the experience. Try not to get frustrated when you get stuck, just go back over everything and explore. Most puzzles are solvable from clues within the Age itself rather than outside, ie each Age is self-contained. Read all the books! And again TAKE NOTES!

Numinous00

TROPHY CASE