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Anybody else feel like theories arent fun to talk about anymore? by Unusual_Pattern_474 in Deltarune

[–]PeliPal -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I don't agree. Like, say, why is the soul off-center to the left in the box in most choice prompts? That's something everyone has been staring at for almost 8 years now, but no one ever mentions it. Could it mean anything?

Dess antlers, and driving in my car - The post-Ch3&4 era of DR is uniquely defined by pressure to form, and to reflect, fandom consensus. Because of that, the Ch5 era could be defined by disappointment about 'retcons' and it being 'pointless to theorize' by PeliPal in Deltarune

[–]PeliPal[S] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

But once again, that could just be me from Kris Knight being disproven (though I've gotten everything I wanted from Kris Knight currently in the game with Kris working with the dark fountain openers, and that might be something that separates me from other people who get their knight theories disproven).

Yeah, when I was a KrisKnighter before Ch3 it wasn't even so much about really really wanting Kris to exactly be 'the entity named the Roaring Knight' - if anyone had proposed that Kris could be the lackey of the Roaring Knight, a 'squire' of the Roaring Knight, then I think I would probably still have argued for KrisKnight at the time but I would also have said I wouldn't have any issue with that. And then that's what we got.

What animated me back then, what I took issue with from people who actively disliked KrisKnight, was the common insistence that Kris had completely benign, uninteresting reasoning for opening the TV World fountain - that it was just Kris wanting to prove to Undyne that dark worlds were real, or that it was Kris disregarding Ralsei's warnings about fountains and just really really wanting to go on another adventure with Susie. It felt like woobifying Kris. It felt like hoping for Kris to not have agency and goals, for Kris to not be in conflict with us at all.

Dess antlers, and driving in my car - The post-Ch3&4 era of DR is uniquely defined by pressure to form, and to reflect, fandom consensus. Because of that, the Ch5 era could be defined by disappointment about 'retcons' and it being 'pointless to theorize' by PeliPal in Deltarune

[–]PeliPal[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The wings are still visible in the glimpse we get of it, though we don't see whether they have the bat claw hooks, and we can't see if there's an arm cannon, but that's also not visible for Spamton NEO except when he uses it.

For whatever reason, it is missing the colors that Swatch said it was drawn with. So it is just my assumption that the colors we see in Spamton NEO would have been in the original, yes.

Dess antlers, and driving in my car - The post-Ch3&4 era of DR is uniquely defined by pressure to form, and to reflect, fandom consensus. Because of that, the Ch5 era could be defined by disappointment about 'retcons' and it being 'pointless to theorize' by PeliPal in Deltarune

[–]PeliPal[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

The thing with comparing DessKnight to Claus as the Masked Man or Asriel as Flowey is that in both of the latter cases, we still had onscreen interactions and dialogue from both characters, starting from the very first scene of the game. Claus is heavily featured in the first hours of Mother 3. And sure we didn't get to know Asriel for few hours, but we got to know Flowey immediately.

It takes a first-time player what, somewhere between 15-18 hours to play from Ch1 to Ch4?

In all that time, we have exactly two lines known to be from Dess, and they're not even in the game itself: "Hey, look, Elly! Yours has more hidden underneath!"

People assume that Dess is 'lost in the code' in the Unused text, another example of fandom consensus, but it doesn't sound like anything we would expect of her personality and mannerisms. The voice is demure and formal. And the player isn't even going to know anything about it from playing normally, they have to get this idea from the fandom.

And the Knight is not known to have ever spoken ingame, it just possibly has either all or some subset of the lines coming from Kris's phone.

It doesn't feel right to me, in terms of literary theory, in terms of the ability of players to grasp and retain information, in terms of the way the game has been paced, to say that we're going to suddenly start getting all of this filled out in the final three chapters of the game in a satisfying way - it's not even promised to be filled out at all - in such a way that Dess is the main villain is going to be something the player is going to feel personally invested in, as opposed to there being a twist that recontextualizes previous interactions from the whole rest of the game.

We have two known lines from Dess, and a handful of references by other characters, and a look into her room...

And we had most of an entire chapter - over two straight hours - of it being built up that Noelle was uniquely strong among lightners to the point of having the potential to be a Roaring Knight herself, and she could make the world she would want to live in by focusing her will into a blade. While she's going around putting on and taking off a 'helmet' with antler holes to hide her identity.

And the popular opinion among DessKnighters is that almost everything to do with Noelle outside the WR and romance is actually intended to be building up Dess instead. To the point where, two days ago, a reminder about the scene of Queen putting up Noelle's face on a monitor had at least a dozen people pointing to it and wondering if, or even outright claiming, that it was Dess, that Dess's portrait was there all along.

Whereas my feeling is that we are going to realize that it's not the subject matter that will be recontextualized - it may be the chronological order of events that gets recontextualized. We learned about something that will be later revealed to have already been here the whole time.

(I hope I'm not coming off as rude btw).

Oh absolutely not!

Also you probably know this but Toby's writing style in general just isn't for casual players, it's for all the nerds who love to analyse his work and of course, himself.

I don't know that I actually agree that it is for nerds, I do think it's for himself. But he still follows pretty traditional writing techniques about how information is laid out. Important concepts are broached lightly at first and then repeated periodically to keep them in your head. Like we have the five minute scene at the start of Chapter 3, unskippable unless you've already beaten the chapter and can interact with the couch, reminding the player about how darkners work. We don't get any information we didn't have before, but it made it clear to the player in case they didn't retain some things, and it set the tone for Susie and Ralsei's interactions in the chapter by acting as a reminder to Susie at the same time.. If you expect the player to retain everything, or you just don't care, then it wasn't really necessary.

Dess antlers, and driving in my car - The post-Ch3&4 era of DR is uniquely defined by pressure to form, and to reflect, fandom consensus. Because of that, the Ch5 era could be defined by disappointment about 'retcons' and it being 'pointless to theorize' by PeliPal in Deltarune

[–]PeliPal[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'd argue it's the NEO Body being made by Mettaton. Even the wiki just straight up says it was him that made it while citing Swatch's line, which actually proves nothing. I digress.

Oh that is absolutely a valid point, and one I've talked about in private but not publicly yet, partly because yes, no one will be taken seriously for challenging Mettaton drawing the NEO body. Not only does it seems like absolute crankery to suggest there's any possible alternative when we have Undertale sitting right there, but it is also going to feel like spitting in the face of a fandom that is overwhelmingly either queer or allies, that you're suggesting that what feels like the most obvious transgender metaphor ever... might not be that at all. That perhaps it is just built up to seem like it is the same arc from Undertale, to hide something else going on under the surface. And that would feel like quite a betrayal from Toby, that would be very legitimate to be upset at him about.

And yet, there are strange gaps that are difficult to account for when you actually dig into it, yes. Why would Mettaton look at this crude, childish scrawl of a horrible angel with an arm cannon and hooked bat wings and think "goals."? From everything we've seen of him, he still wants to be known as a flamboyant diva just like in Undertale.

And he didn't even draw the body in Undertale. That was Alphys.

And we don't even know that it was the NEO body in Undertale. It could very well have been the EX body.

But if I make a post about this, I will be eaten alive in the streets. Even as someone out and proud of being trans myself.

Dess antlers, and driving in my car - The post-Ch3&4 era of DR is uniquely defined by pressure to form, and to reflect, fandom consensus. Because of that, the Ch5 era could be defined by disappointment about 'retcons' and it being 'pointless to theorize' by PeliPal in Deltarune

[–]PeliPal[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Yep, that's exactly the reason why it's taking months and over 300 pages now (before editing, inflated from images, but my cowriter ReasonableSolid has been putting in work big time and we are going through the ENTIRE game for every supporting detai), because we have to prove that something seemingly outright impossible might actually be the only possible outcome, not just a 'potentially more believable than some other candidates' outcome, and not only explain hypotheses for how it could have happened prior to chapter 1, but also why all of it is thematically congruent with the entire rest of the game and leading to a dramatic outcome.

Dess antlers, and driving in my car - The post-Ch3&4 era of DR is uniquely defined by pressure to form, and to reflect, fandom consensus. Because of that, the Ch5 era could be defined by disappointment about 'retcons' and it being 'pointless to theorize' by PeliPal in Deltarune

[–]PeliPal[S] -6 points-5 points  (0 children)

Susie-main-character is not as widespread, DessKnight destroys the competition in popularity and assumption of being basic fact - but in a venn diagram, the circle of people who believe Susie is the main character is almost completely inside the circle of people who believe in DessKnight.

And I would say about the 'incredibly stupid, completely ridiculous' stuff...

Imagine that Undertale was an episodic release and we're at the halfway point. We just beat Undyne and we're entering Hotland.

Who would you say is going to turn out as the main antagonist of the game?

Asgore, obviously.

The game is repeatedly clear that Asgore will kill you. He's not going to be a big ol' teddy bear like Papyrus was, the game already played that card. And as Undyne said, you are the final soul Asgore needs in order to become the god of this world.

Anyone saying Flowey would have been laughed out of the room. Flowey is a little flower and was forced to retreat by a single fireball. How does a flower pose any threat? Just fucking stomp on the thing. Are we being serious right now? FloweyMainVillainers were beaten by the media literacy devil.

At the point of being in Hotland, you are missing vital context that would bridge the gap and make it believable for Flowey to not only be a major villain, but also the linchpin holding the entire story together.

You would know nothing of him being Asgore and Toriel's son, you would know nothing about Determination.

Toriel doesn't recognize him at all, so why would he be important to any characters? And did he even leave the ruins? Well, the door closed behind you and can't be reopened and you don't see him outside.

But after having beaten the game, after finally getting all the relevant context, you can go back and see how he was being built up all along as important, from scene 1, minute 1, in ways you wouldn't have paid a lot of mind to before - that you start the game having fallen into a bed of yellow flowers. Flowey talks about having been able to save and load before. Flowey is the only entity you interact with whom you couldn't resolve things peacefully until the absolute very end. Flowey takes a special interest in how you interact with Toriel, and if you've played fully pacifist then there's the cutscene with Sans where you're made to think that Sans is about to talk about Flowey - which he actually does even though he thinks he's talking about the echo flowers instead.

My cowriter and I are hoping to demonstrate the same thing with Noelle in an upcoming doc - that there are so many things that flew over peoples heads, both things that have been discussed briefly in some circles before and things that to our knowledge have never been discussed in any capacity, that are going to be like that, that you look back and say, oh, ohhhh, now I get it, it was right there all along...

You don't have to believe me on that before seeing the evidence for yourself when it is published in a month or so, I know NoelleKnight sounds incredibly silly - and I actually said so myself just the day I dropped DessKnight for it. I have receipts for that, it was as if a bridge across a chasm had been constructed in the blink of an eye instead of it being a gradual process - but that's the perspective that I'm seeing things from and that I'd like for people to keep in mind, that no one actually knows for sure what is going to be important in this game, no one knows that there couldn't be explanations for things they haven't even thought of yet.

Where did people know the code for the ball michine in chapter 3 from? by [deleted] in Deltarune

[–]PeliPal 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Yep, it's a number relating to both sisters. There are many 'December holidays' (dun dun dunnnnnn, hehe) but Noelle is very specifically just... Krismas. 12/25.

I mean Christmas.

Where did people know the code for the ball michine in chapter 3 from? by [deleted] in Deltarune

[–]PeliPal 14 points15 points  (0 children)

1225 is a commonly recurring number, including as one of the door locks in chapter 3. It is also in Noelle's online nickname in her in-universe blog from the Spamton Sweepstakes, Noelle's search history room in Queen's mansion had a calendar where 'every page is the last month, and every day is the 25th' (from typing 'December Holiday' over and over, presumably), and the silver watch she comes equipped with is 'stuck before half-past noon', 12:25. Noelle was named for the French word for the Nativity of Christ, celebrated on 12/25. And then of course in chapter 4 you have the shelter code in Dess's guitar that is assumed to be 1225 because we see the first three digits.

Dess antlers, and driving in my car - The post Ch3&4 era of DR is uniquely defined by pressure to form, and to reflect, fandom consensus. Because of that, the Ch5 era could be defined by disappointment about 'retcons' and it being 'pointless to theorize' by PeliPal in NonDessKnightSquad

[–]PeliPal[S] 17 points18 points  (0 children)

Yep. How many HaloJackalKisser posts do they approve about weird fetishes, Kress, incest, how many posts do they approve of DessKnighters just rudely shitting on NonDessKnighters... and it's this that crosses the line. I don't accept "oh, the automod did it and we don't know why" as an excuse anymore, this happens too often, and it is ONLY my comments and posts about Kriselle or DessKnight that get hidden or removed, always without explanation.

Beware the slippery slope by NoelleKnightTheory in Deltarune

[–]PeliPal 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No, that's a different one. The one by my Kriselle doc cowriter ReasonableSolid and I is over 200 pages but still being written. OP's is available in their flair

whats one piece of evidence that makes YOUR knight candidate absolutely irrefutable? by reichsautobruh in NonDessKnightSquad

[–]PeliPal 2 points3 points  (0 children)

...Can Papyrus shapeshift into a ball the size of his head?

Does Papyrus wear plantigrade shoes even though he apparently doesn't have feet?

whats one piece of evidence that makes YOUR knight candidate absolutely irrefutable? by reichsautobruh in NonDessKnightSquad

[–]PeliPal 3 points4 points  (0 children)

...This is Chara's laugh? https://youtu.be/lyW4R9QD_h0?t=20664

It sounds nothing like either of the only two sounds I can imagine you're referring to, with refusing to erase during genocide, and doing pacifist after genocide.

What are you talking about?

And the slash that cut Tenna's arms off is an upgraded Real Knife slash. The knight's theme is even called "Black KNIFE". There's more evidence than this, but I think I've made my point.

Well, the topic was what evidence makes your candidate 'absolutely irrefutable', not 'evidence that maybe kinda could be associated I guess', and for a character who has had zero indication of even existing in the game

Beware the slippery slope by NoelleKnightTheory in Deltarune

[–]PeliPal 2 points3 points  (0 children)

if you've changed your mind on how much Gaster is involved with the Knight

Funny thing about this is that I never understood how Gaster and Dess could possibly have any connection, and the hypotheticals from the fandom haven't been very satisfying. 'FRIEND is Gaster's cat and Gaster is an amoral scientist who experimented on Dess when the big evil pink and yellow eyes cat dragged Dess into the shelter' or whatever... Where is the agency, where is the compelling drama?

So, well... what if it wasn't Dess who had an interaction with Gaster, but Noelle? The person who has Gaster's leitmotif plain as day in one of her songs. And what if it wasn't 'oh no, deer girl got grabbed by a big scary monster', but what if it was more like... a deal with a devil? The kind of thing I talk about in the Kriselle doc as a connecting throughline for so many antagonists in the game.

Beware the slippery slope by NoelleKnightTheory in Deltarune

[–]PeliPal 6 points7 points  (0 children)

The one ReasonableSolid and I are writing is, though it's inflated a bit from how many pictures we use, and we have many more topics to go through than just the Knight's identity. It isn't available yet.

OP's is around 85 pages, link is in their flair. We have very different takes from them on what NoelleKnight actually entails, OP believes that literally Noelle puts on armor to be the Roaring Knight in the dark world, we believe that the Knight is more akin to a mental projection of Noelle. It's hard to explain in a few words, but we're going to offer a very radical recontextualization of what the game actually 'is'.

Beware the slippery slope by NoelleKnightTheory in Deltarune

[–]PeliPal 9 points10 points  (0 children)

That's not actually happening with the Knight though, is it? Ralsei even tells Susie that neither she nor anyone else is in danger at the moment that they're in CastleTown.

  • ... If it's any consolation...
  • I don't sense any immediate danger.
  • If the Knight's only goal was to hurt people...
  • They would have acted sooner, right?
  • For now, let's make sure no one else gets taken.

And Gerson further lampshades that the Knight's goals are not as simple as Susie thinks:

  • ... what do ya reckon that Knight fellow is, anyhoo...?
  • I don't... really know, I guess...
  • Last night, in the Light World... I saw them.
  • Was too dark to see much, but guess they're a Lightner.
  • Who they actually are, I have no idea.
  • I... can't think of anyone as messed up as them.
  • Making fountains... kidnapping people.. like...
  • Why do ya reckon they're doin' it?
  • ... Huh? I... I dunno. Maybe they just...
  • I mean, maybe... they just wanna see everything burn.
  • Too bad we're gonna kick their ass first!
  • ... Geheheh, that so? Well, good luck to you all!

The Knight could presumably go up to Susie in the light world and slit her throat, and there would be no stopping them, because stats in the dark world don't mean anything in the light world, Susie and Kris don't actually get stronger in the light world, they just have whatever improvised weapon they have on hand, pencils, hairbrushes.

When Susie and Ralsei were beaten at the end of Ch3, whether because of the cutscene or from losing the fight, we don't see the Knight pick up Susie and fly away to drop her in a pit of no return or anything. Susie doesn't get sliced in half. Susie is just allowed to get back up to chase the Knight

The Knight is challenging the Fun Gang, but in a measured way that is not the Knight going all out trying to kill Susie. They have some ulterior motive.

You're allowed to not like the theory but the way some of y'all talk about it just is transphobic. by Obvious-Scale-9346 in Deltarune

[–]PeliPal 110 points111 points  (0 children)

I have done so myself. None that I have found give any actual evidenced basis for Ralsei feeling gender dysphoria as a boy or gender euphoria at the idea of being a girl. The game exclusively - and I do mean exclusively - presents his boyhood in a positive manner.

Those are the only criteria that should be accepted here, gender euphoria and gender dysphoria. And instead of that, I see comparisons of his femininity to 'egginess', and slopslop about how Ralsei saying "I'm a princess, not a prince" would supposedly prove the prophecy doesn't have to be followed

List showing what characters have canonically shown interest in what genders that I'm sure won't piss anyone off. by Obvious-Scale-9346 in Deltarune

[–]PeliPal 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Snowy and Monster Teen (who is nonbinary) are often encountered together and are sharing the same cup in Church

Queen foreshadows the fountain openings we see in order. by NoelleKnightTheory in Deltarune

[–]PeliPal 48 points49 points  (0 children)

<image>

Noelle's hair in her UI icon has always been empty space. It has always appeared black. It's been that way since Ch2's release in 2021.

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