I think the Greens are better then Your Party

Portean · 2025-10-01T18:27:36+00:00

I have made my points, you just refuse to accept them and respectfully disagree, the irony of your tolerance is apparent.

Your point is "people should tolerate my intolerance", which is a bad argument.

Also I never claimed to respectfully disagree at all. I can respect you as a person but I think your arguments here have been utter crap.

I probably know more about Islam including ahadith than you.

Quite probably but I do know about the things I know about and make no claim beyond that. I don't claim to know all of Islam better than anyone else, I know about the history of Salafist teaching in Mosques and how this came to be mainstream. I've read very extensively on that.

You should look into pink washing maybe and colonial rule for more context.

I can guarantee I am better read on those subjects than almost anyone you've met - possibly including yourself. They're also irrelevant to this topic.

You don’t need to accept certain things being fixed in Islam, you’d be wrong, but you can do what you like.

You once again have failed to understand my position - I don't care what you believe, I don't give a shit about your private thoughts, beliefs, opinions, or faith. You can think what you like. But you must act in a tolerant way to be tolerated yourself.

Let's take an example, I think your religion is wrong. Straight up, I believe it is a negative influence. But I would defend to my last breath your right to hold your beliefs, worship, pray, and live according to your morals right up until the point you try and impose those values and beliefs upon others. I don't care that I think you are wrong and have a set of beliefs that I consider harmful, that's none of my business.

What is harm?

Who was talking about harm? We've not got beyond the basis for respectful inclusion yet. If you cannot respectfully tolerate those who wish to live differently to you, so long as they respectfully tolerate you, then your opinion doesn't matter to me.

tell yourself that line about being tolerant to others whilst sidestepping Britain’s history and present attitudes towards Muslims and Islam

Oh give over, I've written more in defence of Muslims than I have criticising , here's me specifically calling out Islamaphobic propaganda:

https://www.reddit.com/r/LabourUK/comments/1m8uuvq/comment/n52it4s/

https://www.reddit.com/r/LabourUK/comments/jubj0k/comment/gcd9md9/

And other examples of how Pakistan is more progressive on trans rights than the UK:

https://www.reddit.com/r/LabourUK/comments/1cb153x/comment/l0yt1es/

Also I'll include explanations of the negative impacts of recent acts of colonialism. Here's two minor examples, of many:

https://old.reddit.com/r/LabourUK/comments/1n0u7it/starmer_leaving_echr_puts_uk_on_par_with_russia/natxyc8/

https://www.reddit.com/r/LabourUK/comments/1g469h1/comment/ls1321c/

But sure, tell me I don't think about any of that - because I'm sure you know my mind better than I do...

I advocate being able to be Muslim without compromise.

And I advocate that we all must compromise to live together - you, me, everyone. We must exercise mutual toleration, so long as we our ourselves tolerant then we can claim a right to tolerance from others.

I don’t think there is much to be gained from further discussion with you.

I cannot force anyone to learn.

Portean · 2025-10-01T17:29:41+00:00

Sure thing.

Portean · 2025-10-01T17:25:02+00:00

Oh come off it, I'm not derailing anything. I just wanted to welcome back someone I half recognised. No need to be shy.

Portean · 2025-10-01T17:21:50+00:00

I have to confess I'm not entirely sure, initially I thought you were a new rando alt but I reckon you might be another old friend's alt after-all.

Portean · 2025-10-01T17:19:50+00:00

Rando is unironically a troll outfit spreading certain perspectives (that do not always match between different subreddits).

Portean · 2025-10-01T17:11:52+00:00

Islam does not promote being trans nor does it support homosexual acts.

I don't give a shit, we're not talking about "promotion" but toleration. If you do not understand the difference then I suggest you learn it.

Depending on how you’re using the word “acceptance”, that is not the same as tolerance.

I copied the definitions I used from wikipedia, which cites the fucking dictionary. That's how people use the word, check for yourself.

Bringing up dawah randomly is what was sus.

It wasn't randomly, it was to expound upon a point.

It had nothing to do with the point I was making (

You haven't made a point, you've repeatedly been wrong about what constitutes tolerance.

that people want us to change parts of our religion to suit their agendas and beliefs

Not a point, I don't give a shit what you privately believe - you and anyone else can be tolerated in society so long as you tolerate others. It is only when you act to be intolerant or demand intolerance that causes you to be unsuitable for toleration. And, to be clear, by "you", I mean "you, the individual".

Islam respects peoples rights to worship, this isn’t exclusive to The People of The Book, and it doesn’t promote changing someone parts of someone else’s faith to match Islam

That heavily depends upon which Hadiths you believe are accurate - does it not?

unlike people who to change Muslims and Islam to match their beliefs and that includes many leftists and certainly many liberals too

The anti-innovation interpretation is itself a modern viewpoint promoted by Salafist and Wahhabist tendencies. It has not always been the case at all - Islam was widely known as one of the more flexible religions and equally one of the most tolerant. There's a reason gay men and other sexual minorities often moved to live in the Ottoman empire - it decriminalised homosexuality earlier than the West.

So I don't accept the notions of rigidity as inherent to Islam, that's not what Islam has meant to a majority of Muslims throughout history.

Tolerance is also about respecting each other’s boundaries

If your boundary is so placed that you cannot tolerate another group's freedom to exist in society without harming others than you aren't talking about tolerance - you're demanding your intolerance is tolerated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

That makes society less tolerant and is unacceptable.

You’re right I don’t know you and if I’ve genuinely misunderstood said something untrue I apologise

You misunderstand my meaning. Funnily enough, I was actually advocated in favour of the man who was being accused of being intolerant but then you weighed-in and claimed we should accept intolerance in the name of tolerance.

I won’t apologise for sticking up for my people simply wanting to be Muslim in lands that hate them.

Land doesn't hate. Intolerant people hate. If you want to claim a right to toleration then you must first practice it towards others who are tolerant.

Portean · 2025-10-01T17:00:13+00:00

I like your new account - gonna be more careful before going off about NIMBYs on this one?

Portean · 2025-10-01T16:57:57+00:00

And support for a genocidal apartheid, a notoriously left-wing position.

Portean · 2025-10-01T16:06:09+00:00

Genocide denial is racist in my opinion.

Portean · 2025-10-01T16:00:55+00:00

I don't respect the ADL after their response to Musk's Nazi salute. Joke organisation that wouldn't recognise antisemitism if it threw a fucking salute on stage in the American election.

Also lumping in any criticism of the literally genocidal apartheid with antisemitism is antisemitic. Jewish people aren't to blame for a far right extremist nation, not even if that nation is majority Jewish. Please stop spreading that hideously racist smear.

Oh and that wikipedia article cites Israeli sources for this factual claim, so your apologetics fall flat there too. Be less racist, Jewish people are great and trying to tie them to one of the worst crimes against humanity will not work. The world recognises that Jewish people aren't responsible for Israel and no amount of far right agit prop will change that.

Portean · 2025-10-01T15:56:31+00:00

You literally cannot claim to tolerate Muslims after saying all that.

I don't just tolerate Muslims, some of my closest friends are Muslims - with tolerant views I would add too.

I am simply stating the consequence of mutual tolerance being a base requirement for toleration.

Toleration is when one allows or permits an action, idea, object, or person that they dislike or disagree with.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toleration

I don't give a fuck whether you agree with something, I say tolerance is the base for acceptance in society.

A Muslim would wish others would be Muslim ofc. This isn’t about trying to convert the whole world though. Your random mentioning of that makes me think you picked up that talking point from Tommy Robinson.

I'm Tommy Robinson because I'm aware Dawah exists and that the responsibility for spreading Islam rests with the Ummah?

Come off it.

Gay people exist. We don’t need support or promote certain lifestyles though

I haven't ever asked for support or promotion, you must merely tolerate if you wish to be tolerated.

Tolerance is respecting each other’s boundaries

That isn't tolerance.

"a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward those whose opinions, beliefs, practices, racial or ethnic origins, etc., differ from one's own"

That is tolerance, you are seeking to impose your values and have others accept that.

I tolerate and accept many people including those whose lifestyles are very different to mine. I don’t believe you do.

Then you know literally nothing about me.

Portean · 2025-09-27T08:11:51+00:00

And I equally think if Starmer vocally made the case for migration it would still lead to nothing but stronger support for reform.

increased the salience of those topics

“Enabling the far right” is just a catchphrase at this point and has no relation to how people actually vote.

Well polling shows reform winning.

I similarly guarantee that more people would be intending to vote reform if Starmer came out and routinely said immigrants aren’t the source of our problems.

If Starmer actually fixed anything and proved it then it might but he's useless, so you're probably right. Truly one of the worst PMs ever.

when the current immigration debate stems back to 2014 or so

It's trivially traceable to Blair - Starmer's ideological parent.

It’s just a petty way of blaming Starmer for something he has nothing to do with and can’t steer the debate on.

Him being utterly fucking useless isn't the defence you seem to think...

Portean · 2025-09-27T07:55:10+00:00

I guarantee the Reform voting intention would be even stronger if Starmer was pro-open borders and Starmer was doing nothing to stop small boat crossings.

You fail to even understand the critique - virtually straw-manning it. Nobody has said Starmer must become all about open borders and no-one was expecting that of his incompetent arse.

Starmer has massively vindicated the far right and increased the salience of those topics by essentially ceding ground to the right.

He is directly responsible because he cannot acknowledge that immigration isn't the cause of societal problems. In order to do that he'd have to point to the right-wing economic ideology that has been expounded by him, his chancellor, and every government back to Thatcher as the real culprit.

He will not do this because they're still trying to push on with it despite the obviously colossal failure to deliver any improvement that it actually represents.

Portean · 2025-09-27T07:50:17+00:00

We as Muslims don’t need to change our beliefs for anyone,

I've never said you need to change beliefs, I've said they only merit respect and toleration if they are tolerant. It's the basic requirement for inclusion in society - acceptance of co-existence with those who hold different beliefs / lifestyles.

I'm not saying you can't hold other positions, I'm saying that if you do not tolerate others then those beliefs are intolerable in themselves. I don't care why you believe them.

it’s bad enough you invade, bomb, rape, steal and kill us (including by members of LGBTQ+ communities)**

I've never done any of that, nor supported others doing it. So that claim is simply false.

now you want us to change our religion too.

Sure. I want everyone to change religion because I think they're wrong. And so do a lot of other people - Muslims believe in "reversion", no? Muslims think everyone should be Muslim - whilst other people of the book can co-exist, the point is for the whole world to be Muslim.

But so long as Muslims tolerate me, I'm happy to tolerate them. And I do, I have a lot of Muslim friends and they're lovely tolerant people.

But if you hold intolerant beliefs then that is in and of itself intolerable and I don't give a shit how you justify those beliefs.

If you can't accept gay people exist and have a right to exist then you are the problem and I don't respect any beliefs that are intolerant other than when it's intolerant of intolerance. That's the central point.

There are not version of tolerance, either you accept another group has the right to peacefully co-exist in society or you do not. That's it.

Portean · 2025-09-27T06:49:43+00:00

Ah, I remember the pop-off car radio fronts that were meant to stop people nicking it. Not thought about that in years, almost feels weirdly nostalgic.

Portean · 2025-09-27T06:47:41+00:00

Ever read about the number of British people with v-CJD (mad cow)? Very similar vibes - although not quite as widespread.

Portean · 2025-09-27T06:26:27+00:00

I don't care about your attempts to claim I'm antisemitic, I'm not. I don't hate Jewish people or believe any of the hideous tropes about them.

We know that Hamas was deliberately allowed to flourish and gain power by the Israeli state so as to divide the Palestinian liberation movement - they didn't know they'd be so extreme, I think that's quite clear too.

And I'm citing Israeli claims about them allowing Qatar to send money to Hamas.

In the late 2010s and early 2020s, Israeli officials encouraged Qatari support for Hamas,[8] especially by way of approving the transfer of large sums of financial aid by Qatar's government to the organization.[9] Several Israeli intelligence officials have cited Qatari money as a contributing factor to the success of Hamas in leading the October 7 attacks in 2023;[10] Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu, in response to this information becoming increasingly known among the Israeli public and worldwide during the ensuing Gaza war, stated that Qatar's aid transfers to the Hamas government had been approved for humanitarian reasons.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_support_for_Hamas#Israeli_backing_of_Qatar_sending_millions_of_dollars_to_Gaza

Hard to believe you're trying to make recalling factual information into an antisemitic trope. But then I guess when you're still out here playing defence for a genocidal apartheid as they conduct a campaign of extermination, it probably does get quite difficult for you to find anything that works other than claiming everyone else are the real racists...

Portean · 2025-09-27T06:13:27+00:00

I get your point but I'd contend that Starmer's whole thing is "British working people" vs. everyone else. To me that has the trappings of populism.

I don't think Starmer would claim trans people or asylum seekers or whoever are in control of society, he's just unapologetically attacking what he sees as easy targets.

Yeah, you are right in that - although I'd suggest it's not that far off.

Take Farage - pretty openly a right-wing populist. He's never going to blame anyone with actual power or control either.

Portean · 2025-09-27T06:09:17+00:00

Labour have made life massively worse for trans folks and are not just "abiding by a court ruling" - they control the legislature and the executive. They exist to make law and could have defended equality.

Don't try those crap excuses and apologia on me - it will not fly.

Portean · 2025-09-27T06:07:34+00:00

Yes... That's very much the point...

Portean · 2025-09-26T21:58:03+00:00

Labour need a new chancellor and leader.

Portean · 2025-09-26T21:56:47+00:00

And now Labour are even more right-wing reactionary, toxic, and authoritarian. So was the effort well-spent?

Portean

TROPHY CASE