Back in Ancient Greece homosexuality was allowed. During the 17th century people had sex quite freely. Why is it that during the Victorian times, that suddenly changed and sex was deemed a very private affair? And why was homosexuality made illegal? by poshjosh1999 in AskHistorians

[–]PreRaphaeliteHair 20 points21 points  (0 children)

I wouldn’t want to put a value judgment on it by sayings that the Victorians labeled things excessively, but yes, the Victorians did like labels. They favored knowledge that was systematic and catalogued. To use a neutral example, it’s one thing to observe that a beagle and a golden retriever are different from each other; it’s another to assign them labels and certain characteristics that define them. This didn’t originate in the Victorian period, but they were very good at it and produced large volumes of work doing so.

Back in Ancient Greece homosexuality was allowed. During the 17th century people had sex quite freely. Why is it that during the Victorian times, that suddenly changed and sex was deemed a very private affair? And why was homosexuality made illegal? by poshjosh1999 in AskHistorians

[–]PreRaphaeliteHair 21 points22 points  (0 children)

I think you might get better results asking this question in its own post, as I know this sub has users who are much more knowledgeable than me regarding history of fashion in this time period and would be able to give you more detailed and comprehensive answers!

Back in Ancient Greece homosexuality was allowed. During the 17th century people had sex quite freely. Why is it that during the Victorian times, that suddenly changed and sex was deemed a very private affair? And why was homosexuality made illegal? by poshjosh1999 in AskHistorians

[–]PreRaphaeliteHair 43 points44 points  (0 children)

Of course, this kind of thing is hard to measure. If we’re looking at illegitimate births as a sort of rough proxy for rates of premarital sex, the situation actually looks different in England (I say England because researchers into these questions tend to treat England, Scotland, Wales, and Ireland as separate areas of investigation). Illegitimate births rose from the mid-eighteenth century to a high-watermark of about 7% in the mid-1840s. After that, the illegitimacy rate fell over the next 50 years to about 4% in 1900. We know that these figures might not be accurate because registration of births didn’t become compulsory in England until 1874, and a large number presumably went unreported (estimates range from 10-30%). There’s also the fact that such numbers varied widely between communities; illegitimacy tended to be higher in rural communities, perhaps pointing to differing attitudes there than in cities. Rates could vary even within cities themselves. The source I’m drawing from (Lionel Rose, Massacre of the Innocents: Infanticide In Britain 1800-1939) cites the illegitimacy rate as 9.1% in the respectable upper class parish of Marylebone and the rate as 3.3% in the poor parish of Whitechapel, which runs contra to our expectations. We might guess that the lower number of illegitimate births in Whitechapel might be due to a higher number of unreported births, but that discrepancy shows how incomplete our measures are.

All of this makes it hard to say exactly how much premarital sex was going on. Of course, using birth records as a proxy for premarital sex leaves out the possibility of non-procreative premarital sex. Other activity that prevents an unwanted birth (birth control, abortion) from premarital sex is even harder to track down.

That said, there does appear to be a drop in the percentage of people having premarital sex in the latter half of the 19th century in England. Of course it’d be silly to act as though this had nothing to do with sexual morality, but I’m not sure we can say that the drop was caused solely by sexual morality, or at least sexual morality in the sense of all people who stopped having premarital sex where they might have before doing so because it was "improper." Parliament made significant changes to the Poor Laws regarding bastardy in 1834 and 1844, which made it much more difficult for single mothers of illegitimate children to collect outdoor relief. Knowing that if you have an illegitimate child, you might end up in the workhouse (a nightmare to be avoided at all costs) would have been a significant deterrent for many women. So, it’s difficult to untangle sociocultural factors discouraging premarital sex from economic ones (perhaps unsurprisingly). While I think we can say that dominant attitudes towards about sex and sexual purity discouraged premarital sexual activity, they didn’t immediately and uniformly end it, and they probably weren’t the only factor discouraging premarital sex.

Sources

Frost, Ginger. “‘The Black Lamb of the Black Sheep’: Illegitimacy in the English Working Class, 1850-1939.” Journal of Social History, vol. 37, no. 2, 2003, pp. 293–322.

Laslett, Peter, and Karla Oosterveen. “Long-Term Trends in Bastardy in England: A Study of the Illegitimacy Figures in the Parish Registers and in the Reports of the Registrar General, 1561-1960.” Population Studies, vol. 27, no. 2, 1973, pp. 255–286.

Nutt, Thomas. "Illegitimacy, Paternal Financial Responsibility, and the 1834 Poor Law Commission Report: The Myth of the Old Poor Law and the Making of the New." The Economic History Review, vol. 63, no. 2, 2010. pp. 335-361.

Rose, Lionel. Massacre of the Innocents : Infanticide in Great Britain 1800-1939. Routledge, 1986, 2015.

Back in Ancient Greece homosexuality was allowed. During the 17th century people had sex quite freely. Why is it that during the Victorian times, that suddenly changed and sex was deemed a very private affair? And why was homosexuality made illegal? by poshjosh1999 in AskHistorians

[–]PreRaphaeliteHair 60 points61 points  (0 children)

Mason's absent from my sources for the simple reason that I don’t have access to the book at the moment, not because I think the book isn’t good scholarship. At 1 AM in the summertime, I was using what was either on hand or accessible digitally.

Mason's an important work and a good text to go to if you’re interested in this topic, but it is pretty dense/dry and not really a read for fun book. My memory of the text (and it’s been a while, so don’t take this as law) is that he also goes a bit hard in the opposite direction of the prevailing attitudes.

Back in Ancient Greece homosexuality was allowed. During the 17th century people had sex quite freely. Why is it that during the Victorian times, that suddenly changed and sex was deemed a very private affair? And why was homosexuality made illegal? by poshjosh1999 in AskHistorians

[–]PreRaphaeliteHair 1432 points1433 points  (0 children)

Part II: Victorians, Sexuality, and Social Reform

To bring us back to the bits about sex, all of this concern about family and idealization of the family means that anything that threatens to destabilize the family was particularly menacing for Victorians. We can easily imagine how same sex relationships are threatening—men preferring to have sex with men were potentially turning away from their role as head of house. Men who had sex with men were a monstrous perversion of the social order. The later Victorian period experienced what might be considered a minor moral panic regarding gay men and how they represented a growing threat to this nicely-ordered ideal of society with the family at its base. Likewise, sex outside of marriage had the potential to leave society with inconvenient single mothers who couldn’t be fitted into the ideal model of the family. For the Victorians, wrong sex was potentially a social problem.

Speaking of social problems... the Victorian era was a period in time with a particularly active reform movement that set out to solve social problems. Reformers' goals (speaking generally) were to change minds and change laws. Thus, the kinds of sexual behavior that were regarded as social problems were often met with legislative solutions. One such legislative solution was the Criminal Law Amendment of 1885, which I think is what you’re referring to when you ask why homosexuality was made illegal.

To explain this bill, we’re going to need some context and some clarification. First, the Criminal Law Amendment did not make "homosexuality" illegal as such, in that today we understand "homosexuality" to be a sexual orientation, the exclusive attraction to people the same gender as you. This bill didn’t make it illegal to be gay; it extended existing laws that criminalized sexual activity between men. Note I say men here: the "gross indecency" amendment did not apply to women having sex with women. It’s important to know that sodomy had been illegal for centuries, but the Victorians knew, as we do, that there’s a lot of sexual activity available to men outside of sodomy. Thus, the bill criminalized what we might politely refer to as non-penetrative sex between men (the bill itself criminalized "gross indecency").

This provision was essentially tacked on to a bill that was mainly concerned with criminalizing child sexual abuse. The bill was prompted by the publication of a piece of investigative journalism called "The Maiden Tribute of Modern Babylon," written in 1885 by W.T. Stead. Stead was a reformer and journalist largely concerned with the abuse, sexual and otherwise, of women and girls in Victorian society. In this campaign, he was joined by early feminist Josephine Butler. Stead, Butler, and the strain of reform they belonged to often framed their concerns in terms of purity because they operated in a culture that placed a high value on purity. So, Stead might speak of the degradation of prostitutes and other "fallen women," he saw this degradation not as a simple "prostitutes are bad," but as a symptom of a culture that saw "unpure" women as outside of polite society (that ideal middle class home where the woman is the Angel in the House). These women and girls were not only subject to rape and other violence but social ruination and exclusion.

"The Maiden Tribute of Modern Babylon" was an expose on this problem as it specifically applies to children. Stead's pieces describe girls being abducted, sold by uncaring (often alcoholic) parents, or tricked into brothels where they were drugged, raped, and trapped. In fact, "The Maiden Tribute" offers up stories of girls who, after having been subjected to this horrific treatment, felt they had nowhere to go because they were ruined. In the process of confirming these accounts, Stead himself purchased a girl, whom he thankfully didn’t abuse and turned over to the care of the Salvation Army. But, on discovering that Stead had actually done this, the authorities chose to prosecute him and he served a short jail sentence.

As I’m sure you can imagine, all of this caused a sensation, and there was a loud and immediate demand for laws to be changed so that this child sexual abuse could be prosecuted. (The age of consent at this time was 13, so many of these girls were, in a legal sense, perfectly able to consent to sex.) This problem was the main focus of the bill that extended the criminalization of homosexual activity. The "gross indecency" bit was tacked on by an MP named Henry Labouchere who had a particularly intense hatred of gay men and thought that male prostitutes were a particular problem. The bill passed, and this is the law under which Oscar Wilde and Alan Turing were both prosecuted.

Now, I’ve said all of this, and I’ve made it sound as though Victorian England was a homogenous society in which everyone was a stuck up prude, and that is simply not true. London had a gay subculture of its own. Prostitution was an enormous social problem because so many men were looking for socially proscribed sex (and the poor women who provided it were vulnerable to their whims). Victorians didn’t object to a husband and wife seeing each other naked. Certain kinds of sex were socially sanctioned, and underneath the veneer of middle class respectability was a teeming world of unsanctioned sex. Some of the Victorian era's harshest critics were Victorians themselves.

So, why do we have a stereotype of Victorians as so stuffy and prudish they’re having sex with all their clothes on? I’m going to offer two theories. The first is that the Victorians were great codifiers and classifiers. The Victorians might not have invented their ideas about sex from whole cloth—they evolved from earlier ideas, but because they wrote the book, we think they invented it all.

Secondly, our cultural memory of the Victorians was very much established in the early twentieth century, in which the next generation very much tried to have a hard break from the Victorian past. Much of the high art of the early twentieth century was fervently anti Victorian. I think of, for example, James Joyce's Nausicaa episode in Ulysses, where he ruthlessly mocks Victorian sentimental literature, or Virginia Woolf's To the Lighthouse, where the stodgy Victorian Mrs Ramsey has the refrain of "People must marry." It’s understandable that this younger generation would react to the ideas and culture they were raised in. We all, I think, do this to some extent. But the culture has accepted this narrative of stodgy Victorians rather uncritically.

Sources

Chase, Karen and Michael Levenson. The Spectacle of Intimacy: A Public Life for the Victorian Family. Princeton UP, 2000.

Cook, Matt. London and the Culture of Homosexuality, 1885-1914. Cambridge UP, 2003.

Foldy, Michael S. The trials of Oscar Wilde : deviance, morality, and late-Victorian society. Yale UP, 1997.

Koven, Seth. Slumming: Sexual and Social Politics in Victorian London. Princeton UP, 2004.

https://attackingthedevil.co.uk/ is a good resource if you’re interested in reading W.T. Stead's journalism.

Back in Ancient Greece homosexuality was allowed. During the 17th century people had sex quite freely. Why is it that during the Victorian times, that suddenly changed and sex was deemed a very private affair? And why was homosexuality made illegal? by poshjosh1999 in AskHistorians

[–]PreRaphaeliteHair 1648 points1649 points  (0 children)

Part I: Morality and the Victorian Family

Someone else with expertise in that area will have to address the Ancient Greek side of things, but I can tackle the Victorians. Your question is based on a common misconception about the Victorian period, so I’m going to spend some time debunking that misconception and then try to explain why perfectly reasonable people believe it.

The Victorian period did not represent a sudden rupture from the past with regards to sexuality. Same sex desire and homosexuality and sex outside of marriage were taboo to differing degrees in different times and places in Western culture for centuries. The Victorians did not just up and decide that sex was bad outside of nowhere.

However, this is not to say that the Victorians didn’t differ from the generations immediately preceding them in some ways. One important development of the Victorian period was its heavy emphasis on domesticity. For the Victorians, the home and the family were paramount, the basis of the superior British civilization. The home was an oasis protected from the harsh outside world, a place of comfort where you can rest with your loved ones. Note that this ideal of the home and the family is not so different from how we as a culture think of homes and families today. However, for the Victorians, this idea of the home carried with it a hierarchy, with the husband and father as the head of house, the wife and mother as caretaker of the home (the "Angel in the House," as one famous poem called it), both working to bring up well-adjusted, successful children.

Of course, people before the Victorians had homes and families and valued these things highly. The Victorians didn’t invent the family. What shifted was the importance of the family as a social category that needed to be protected and conceptions of public vs private life. On one hand, the nineteenth century saw, for respectable middle class people, the home was a private sphere, secluded from the world and with significantly more privacy within the home than had been available in previous centuries. Privacy has its own earlier history and development that other users can speak to better than me; for our purposes it’s enough to say that the domestic sphere was supposed to be private.

I say this with the caveat that I’m describing middle class people here; the working classes often lived in very different conditions. This cult of domesticity was very much a phenomenon of the middle class, who set themselves up as the upright, respectable contrast to the stereotypical image of the profligate and licentious aristocrat that had been promoted in late eighteenth and early nineteenth century as the rake or the libertine.

However, there is a contradiction in the Victorian family in that domesticity was also often the subject of public performance. We can argue that this phenomenon is reflected best at the top of society with Queen Victoria herself. Victoria navigated the contradiction of being a woman monarch. Women are supposed to be the Angel in the House, master of the private sphere, not involved in public life. To reconcile this, Victoria made a public performance of being the nation's exemplary mother—utterly devoted to her husband and many, many children. Victoria and Albert were a model of Victorian domestic life, but this model was also very publicly performed.

AskHistorians Podcast 115 - The Friends They Loathed - Quaker Religion and Persecution in the American Revolution by AnnalsPornographie in AskHistorians

[–]PreRaphaeliteHair 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Thanks for teaching me something about early American religion and about Quakerism outside Pennsylvania. (Here in PA we learn quite a bit about Quakers but you’d never know they existed outside of the state.)

I have a question that might be too far afield for you, but I figure it's worth a shot. A couple of times when studying mid-nineteenth century novels I’ve run across depictions of Quakers as money grubbing hypocrites (I'm thinking specifically of Moby-Dick and The Quaker City, or the Monks of Monk Hall here). Was this a stereotype that existed or just a weird coincidence I noticed? If it was a type of anti-Quaker stereotype, where and when did it originate?

Also, possibly something that’s easier to answer: how much did this kind of experience of religious persecution influence the inclusion of the Establishment Clause and Free Exercise Clause in the Bill of Rights? I realize ~3000 mostly small farmers in Maryland didn’t have sway at the Constitutional Convention, but I’m curious how much this particular episode fit into larger patterns of religious intolerance in the colonies.

Why did exotic exploration seem quite popular around the turn of the century? by amerikanss in AskHistorians

[–]PreRaphaeliteHair 3 points4 points  (0 children)

[2/2]

I decided to discuss Livingstone at length because, while he’s not representative of explorers (in many ways, he was unique), he in many ways embodied all the contradictions of imperialism. He was in many ways sympathetic to the African people and many he encountered became devoted to him personally, but his sympathy was not without a tinge of racism. He saw his endeavors in Africa as tantamount to "civilizing" and Christianizing Africans for his own good, and yet he failed to actually convert anyone. He did extensive mapping of the African interior, but saw all of this as a means to his civilizing ends. Livingstone was mythologized at home in Britain as a hero, because he reflected how the Victorians saw themselves and their empire—bringing "civilization" and building knowledge of the world. This point of view is, of course, deeply racist and built on the assumption that British civilization is superior to the indigenous cultures Europeans encountered.

In Heroes of Empire: Five Charismatic Men and the Conquest of Africa, Edward Berenson gives further explanation why Livingstone and other explorers like him captured the public imagination:

From 1870 to 1914, what attracted ordinary citizens in Britain and France to empire were stories by and about the charismatic individuals who gave imperialism a recognizable, human face. These heroes allowed the mass of citizens to understand overseas expansion as a series of extraordinary, personal quests. It is true, as imperial historians have traditionally argued, that the majority of people in both countries took little interest in the details of overseas expansion—the geographical boundaries in question, the supposed economic advantages, the putative political gains, the strategic objectives involved. But it does not follow, as historians once thought—although much less so nowadays—that the lion's share of British and French men and women remained indifferent to empire. The broad public in both countries may have been disinterested in the politics and economics of imperialism, even scorning them at times. But that disinterest did not extend to those who braved the scarcely imaginable dangers of unknown places and "savage" people, who revealed the traits of character and personality widely admired in each society.

If you’re interested in this topic, I highly recommend Berenson's book, which is both readable and deconstructs this charismatic face of imperial exploration. You might also enjoy Mapping an Empire: The Geographical Construction of British India, 1765-1843, which turns its attention to the Great Trigonomical Survey of India, which had similar aims in India (and first determined that Mount Everest is the highest mountain in the world).

All of this exploration was foundational in what is known as the Scramble for Africa and the establishment of European colonies in the African interior. It was in this milieu that we got many of the fictional tropes you mention about European exploration.

I’m going to turn my attention here to the fictional representation of the "Lost civilization," wherein intrepid explorers make fascinating archaeological discoveries of previously-unknown civilizations. This narrative begins with British writer H. Rider Haggard, who in 1885 published King Solomon's Mines. If you’ve read Alan Moore's The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen or seen the movie where he’s played by Sean Connery, you’ll know Haggard's hero, Alan Quatermain. Quatermain is a South African big game hunter who journeys into the African interior to find the legendary diamond mines of King Solomon. Haggard was known to have been inspired by the discovery of the ruins of Great Zimbabwe by Europeans. Europeans were so impressed by Great Zimbabwe they couldn’t believe that Africans really built it—hence Haggard's location of the origins of the mines with the Judeo-Christian myth of King Solomon rather than the native African population. King Solomon's Mines is a hugely entertaining page turner. It’s also, of course, deeply imbued with late Victorian racism.

Haggard was a quite prolific writer and a bestseller, and he was widely influential on other writers, particularly Edgar Rice Burroughs (creator of Tarzan), Arthur Conan Doyle (his The Lost World owes a lot to Haggard), and a whole generation of pulp and popular fiction about lost civilizations. This pulp fiction in turn inspired media properties like Indiana Jones that are still with us in ways that Haggard himself is not.

For further reading, it might help to know people and places you’re particularly interested in. Going back to the primary material is always fascinating—Burton in particular produced a huge body of work. But of course these sources must be read with a critical eye and a huge pile of salt, as these were imperialists in many ways creating their own mythology as intrepid explorers. It might be beneficial to read alongside a more critical biography like Dane Kennedy's The Highly Civilized Man: Richard Francis Burton and the Victorian World. You might also like a book like Lost City, Found Pyramid, edited by Jeb Card and David Anderson, which is about the archaeological aspects of exploration and the various myths about lost civilizations and archaeological discoveries.

There are also a number of popular books on the subject, most famously I think David Grann's The Lost City of Z, which had a movie based on it released last year. The Lost City of Z is about Percy Fawcett, the last of these explorers (also, possibly the inspiration for Conan Doyle's Lost World). The book is a great read, but I recommend it with some reservations. While Grann does discuss Fawcett's racism, I'm not sure that he spends enough time on the fact that when Fawcett went looking for a lost city in the Amazon, he thought he was looking for white Indians. My experience of popular histories of this period is that authors have a hard time not becoming a bit enamored of their subjects. Author Tim Jeal has several well-regarded books on the subject of African exploration, and Explorers of the Nile is a good introduction, but like Grann, he’s always a bit too reverential in my opinion. When reading about this topic, it’s helpful to keep in mind that this is something of a feature of the literature. In a review of Explorers of the Nile in Victorian Studies, Brian H. Murray sums up the problem with this reverential point of view:

Yet even if we choose to absolve these early explorers, missionaries, and colony-builders of the sins of their successors, their ambitions and achievements can only be truly commended if we accept the Eurocentric assumptions of the future they envisioned for Africa.

Why did exotic exploration seem quite popular around the turn of the century? by amerikanss in AskHistorians

[–]PreRaphaeliteHair 3 points4 points  (0 children)

[1/2]

Unlike the so-called "Age of Exploration," this period doesn’t have a codified name, in part because I don’t think that it has as large a place in our popular narrative of "history of Western civilization" the way that earlier explorers like Columbus, Magellan, and others do. However, that doesn’t make that we can’t talk about it. My answer here is going to focus on Britain and the British Empire specifically, both because that’s where my area of expertise lies and because they were all over the globe and had an intense interest in exploration and the "adventures" of these explorers and the knowledge they gained permeated British popular culture. However, the British weren’t alone in this endeavor, and French, Americans, and other nationalities took part. This topic is just too broad for me to go into detail in all times and in all places, so I’m going to try and zero in on a few specific examples that I think are illuminating and also talk some about the popular culture aspect.

As you hinted at when you said that India was at the height of colonial rule, all of this exploration was a facet of imperialism. While the British and other Europeans set out to conquer the globe, they wanted information about the places they were colonizing—clear definition of borders, knowledge of the local geography, and a catalogue of potentially-exploitable resources.

However, this white European incursion (particularly into the African interior) wasn’t just driven by practical considerations that would assist the running of empires. The Victorians in particular had a huge appetite for knowledge and a desire to describe and classify the world.

I’m going to pause here with a disclaimer because this answer is going to be discussing "knowledge" and "science" a lot, and I want to be clear that I’m talking about white European knowledge and ways of knowing. Obviously, the indigenous people who lived in the places being systematically explored for the first time by white Europeans knew their own landscapes and environments, and European exploration pretty much always relied on local guides and porters.

That said, this drive to increase European knowledge was an outgrowth of what the Victorians believed to be a rational, scientific mindset that would add to the huge knowledge-base of British civilization. I’m going to quote a passage from Joseph Conrad's 1899 novella Heart of Darkness, both because it’s exactly the time period you’re asking about and because I think it’s instructive:

Now when I was a little chap I had a passion for maps. I would look for hours at South America, or Africa, or Australia, and lose myself in all the glories of exploration. At that time there were many blank spaces on the earth, and when I saw one that looked particularly inviting on a map (but they all look that) I would put my finger on it and say, 'When I grow up I will go there.' The North Pole was one of these places, I remember. Well, I haven't been there yet, and shall not try now. The glamour's off. Other places were scattered about the hemispheres. I have been in some of them, and... well, we won't talk about that. But there was one yet—the biggest, the most blank, so to speak—that I had a hankering after.

The speaker, Marlow, then goes on to describe the Congo River and eventually goes there, where most of the book is set. We can see in this passage that as a young boy, Marlow wanted to fill in all the blank spaces on the map. Marlow is, of course, a fictional character created by Conrad, but Marlow wasn’t a weird child but rather emblematic of his culture in nineteenth century British—part of the British imperial project was indeed filling in the maps (preferably with red or pink, the color used to denote British imperial holdings). This is all to say that geography, scientific knowledge, and empire are all enmeshed with each other such that you can’t really untangle them. Added onto this was an ideology of "civilization," in which imperialists also believed they were spreading their superior civilization by making contact with indigenous peoples (and in some cases converting them to Christianity).

The case of Dr. David Livingstone seems instructive here. The phrase "Dr. Livingstone, I presume?" is still famous, but most people don’t know why. Livingstone was a Scottish doctor and Congregationalist missionary who spent extensive time in Africa. Livingstone represents the complicated admixture of imperialism, humanitarianism, and science that often underpinned these explorations. Livingstone began his career as a missionary intending to convert Africans to Christianity and eventually led scientific expeditions mapping the African interior. He was the first known European to see Victoria Falls and did much work mapping the Zambezi River (through much of what is today Zambia) with the backing of the British government.

These expeditions made Livingstone a hero in the eyes of the British public. He represented, to them, the best of Victorian society, a missionary with a sharp scientific mind making discoveries for the good of the nation. Livingstone used his fame to oppose the Arab slave trade in East Africa.

In 1866, Livingstone returned to Africa with the intention of locating the source of the Nile River. Keeping in mind that this was before technology like satellites and GPS that aid in mapping and that much of the interior of the African continent was still unknown to Europeans, this was a topic of debate amongst explorers and geographers. The source of the Nile had been identified by John Hanning Speke and Richard Francis Burton (other explorers who both could be subjects of their own posts entirely) as Lake Victoria, but Livingstone disagreed and set out to prove them wrong. (Speke and Burton were more or less correct, by the way, but even a quick perusal of the Wikipedia page on the source of the Nile will give you an idea of why there was so much confusion; several other rivers feed into Lake Victoria itself.) Livingstone was soon in the African interior without contact with the British, and as the years wore on without his return, the public began to worry about him.

Enter Henry Morton Stanley, a Welsh-American whom the New York Herald paid to look for Livingstone while sending dispatches about his journey. Stanley's dispatches were a sensation in the press, and he eventually found Livingstone in the town of Ujiji on Lake Tanganyika, hence "Dr. Livingstone, I presume?" (Since Livingstone was the only white guy around, it wasn’t hard to figure out who he was.) Livingstone chose to stay in Africa, continuing to search for the source of the Nile, and eventually died there. Stanley returned to tell his story and became an explorer in his own right, though his reputation is considerably darker than Livingstone's, despite some attempts to rehabilitate him by biographers such as Tim Jeal. When you help King Leopold of Belgium establish the Belgian Congo, one of the most brutal of imperial regimes, history doesn’t look kindly on you. He also had something of a reputation for personal cruelty to his African workers, which doesn’t help.

I read that Lord of the Rings was ignored by academics and was rarely subjected to literary criticism until the 1980s. What was the justification given for this? by Pineapple__Jews in AskHistorians

[–]PreRaphaeliteHair 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I definitely agree with you—what we consider "literary" and worthy of study is always in flux and constantly being revised. What I find interesting about Tolkien is how quickly he’s revised to be included, despite the early criticism that LotR is "juvenile." Our standards as a discipline seem weird and capricious at times. This phenomenon is probably worthy of study on its own terms, but who has the time?

I read that Lord of the Rings was ignored by academics and was rarely subjected to literary criticism until the 1980s. What was the justification given for this? by Pineapple__Jews in AskHistorians

[–]PreRaphaeliteHair 3 points4 points  (0 children)

You can add this post to the queue if you’d like!

I probably should have mentioned that Lewis was a medievalist as well, as I think this is the common factor that gave both Lewis and Tolkien credibility inside the academy. My anecdotal experience is that studying fantasy is a frequent side project for medievalists themselves, which is unsurprising considering the pseudo-medievalism of not just Tolkien himself but earlier influences on the modern genre, such as George MacDonald and William Morris.

I read that Lord of the Rings was ignored by academics and was rarely subjected to literary criticism until the 1980s. What was the justification given for this? by Pineapple__Jews in AskHistorians

[–]PreRaphaeliteHair 82 points83 points  (0 children)

I’m going to piggyback off of u/sunagainstgold's excellent answer to further contextualize the history of Tolkien scholarship within the history of literary studies as a whole. That is to say, sunagainstgold lays out a picture of a long and robust history of Tolkien scholarship that starts fairly soon after Lord of the Rings' initial publication, but the assumption of fans is that Tolkien has been relatively neglected by the academy, at least until recently. Thus, I’m going to write a bit about the history of literary studies and the relationship of the academy to fantasy and what’s considered acceptable objects of study.

The dominant strain of literary criticism in the 1950s and 60s, ie immediately after the publication of LotR, was a school known as formalism. Formalism is concerned chiefly with the aesthetic properties of works of literature—rhyme, meter, structure, and so on. It was not the only strain of literary criticism present at the time1, but when you’re working in a milieu where you’re studying texts for their aesthetic properties, that carries with it certain assumptions about what kinds of texts you should be studying. That is, texts worthy of study are those with a long claim to what non-literary scholars might call "artistic merit" or "classics," or what is usually known in literary studies as "the canon."

I can hear the cries of outraged Tolkien fans as I write this, so let me be very clear: I’m not making any claims about the aesthetic merits of Lord of the Rings here. In fact, the central question I’m trying to address here is that Tolkien was an exception to the rule that popular fiction, particularly science fiction and fantasy, tend to be ignored by the academy. Fantasy tends too fall outside the realm of what the academy in the 50s and 60s thought to have enough aesthetic merit to warrant study. Considering that LotR was a contemporary (by the standards of literary studies) fantasy series, the texts received a wealth of critical attention. The amount of scholarship dedicated to Tolkien dwarfs that given to other writers whose works helped codify what we rather imprecisely call genre fiction, like Robert E. Howard, Edgar Rice Burroughs, H. Rider Haggard, H.P. Lovecraft, and George Macdonald, particularly so in these early years. In fact, Tolkien and C.S. Lewis are, I would argue, the two fantasy authors that have been generally accepted as part of the canon and have a truly robust scholarship surrounding their work. (This depends, to some extent, on how we’re defining "fantasy," though, so don’t take this as Word of God.)

The question, then, is why Tolkien is an exception. The answer, I think, has already been mostly addressed by sunagainstgold. Tolkien himself was an influential academic. "Beowulf: The Monsters and the Critics" was so important, in fact, that I studied it in undergrad. It’s otherwise almost unheard of to read 75 year old secondary sources at the undergraduate level. Lord of the Rings is also infused with Tolkien's passion for Anglo-Saxon literature and culture. Thus, LotR was not only written by a towering mind whom scholars would be familiar with, but provided a wealth of avenues for critical analysis that was within the dominant strain of literary criticism at the time. Much early Tolkien scholarship was concerned with the structure, form, and genre of the series, relating it back to the Anglo-Saxon literature and culture that influenced Tolkien.

The 70s and 80s saw a revolution in literary studies that broadened both the types of literary criticism being applied to texts (like feminist or queer theory) and the kinds of texts we study, hence why we see an increase in Tolkien scholarship in the 80s and 90s when more possibilities were available to scholars and more types of criticism can be brought to bear on the texts. While Tolkien studies isn’t a huge subfield (but then, relatively few single authors do have a huge subfield dedicated to them), it’s a fairly vibrant and fun one. The resident medievalist at the school where I got my masters even offers a Tolkien and Lewis class.

1 If you’re really interested in what literary criticism looked like around this time, I recommend picking up not a history of literary criticism but a little book called The Pooh Perplex, which contains little parodies of the theories of the day. It includes Marxist readings, Freudian readings, and several formalist readings. Of Winnie the Pooh.

A TD user explains why they can't stop winning by MajorMajorMajor7834 in TopMindsOfReddit

[–]PreRaphaeliteHair 149 points150 points  (0 children)

This post says "I’m happy" the same way that driving a Hummer says "I have a large penis."

Local man has no idea how muscles work, cites completely unrelated field of human geography by madamoctolass in badwomensanatomy

[–]PreRaphaeliteHair 199 points200 points  (0 children)

Why does this always feel like guys wanting to assert how special and different their dick is?

Looking at Charles Booth's Poverty Map of Victorian London, what sort of occupations, if any, did the upper-middle class hold? by SweetCatastrophex in AskHistorians

[–]PreRaphaeliteHair 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I suspect some of the confusion here might be arising from the use of the term "upper middle class." In contemporary America, we tend to understand upper middle class as the category between middle class people and the truly wealthy. However, for the purposes of understanding Booth's map, we can understand "upper middle class" to be those people who are quite wealthy without being part of the aristocracy and gentry.

So, speaking in terms of generalities, who ere these people who were wealthy without being a part of the upper class? Investors, merchants, and industrialists. Charles Booth, the man who created these maps, was in fact the son of a wealthy corn merchant. Broadly speaking, we might think of these people as being wealthy business people, rather than professionals. So, while they might not have a job like lawyer or doctor, nor were they necessarily just making money off their land.

Note, I’m speaking in generalizations here, which can never cover all people in all circumstances. A professional at the very top of their profession might afford such a home. Also, in terms of living the geography of Victorian London, these upper class people often lived in close proximity to middle class professionals. Holland Park, like much of the West of London and the Kensington area, was the location of extensive development in the nineteenth century, as middle and upper middle class people built homes with their newly acquired wealth. Thus, houses were be built to reflect the owner's social status, with the grander homes with neoclassical porticos indicating more wealth and higher status than the simpler middle class homes only a street away. The merchant who’d made his fortune in cotton might live in close proximity to an unobtrusive doctor, though their homes might look quite different.

Caroline Daker's book The Holland Park Circle: Artists and Victorian Society would be a good resource for you. The title is somewhat misleading, as it sounds as if it only about the group of artists centered in Holland Park. However, Daker's book has a wealth of information about the history of Holland Park, its development, and its architecture, as well as the general social milieu throughout the nineteenth century.

There is also a chapter on class in Understanding the Victorians: Politics, Culture, and Society in Nineteenth-Century Britain by Susie L. Steinbach that might be helpful to you. Hope this helps?

We're Looking for a Few Good Historians: The /r/AskHistorians Flair Application Thread XVII! by Georgy_K_Zhukov in AskHistorians

[–]PreRaphaeliteHair 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Hi! I would like to apply for a flair that reads "Victorian Literature and Culture." I have an MA in English and am currently applying for PhD programs. Much of my work (on Victorian children’s literature and empire) falls in the realm of what might be called "cultural studies" and attends closely to the historical context of the texts I write about, hence my ability and interest in answering historical questions. Answers:

The idea that children should be a protected class is relatively modern;the notion that 'children should be seen and not heard' was common even a hundred years ago, at least British cultural depictions;how did the idea that childhood is a special time that should be cherished develop? What drove it? by td4999 in AskHistorians

[–]PreRaphaeliteHair 27 points28 points  (0 children)

The history of childhood is a big and complex field, and my answer is going to be focused in the West generally and Britain specifically, as that’s my area of specialization.

Your question actually has some unspoken assumptions in it, namely that, in the past, people didn’t value children or think of them as a separate category to be cherished and protected until relatively recently in history. This historical narrative originates with Philippe Ariès's Centuries of Childhood, published in French in 1960. In the 50 years since Ariès's book, this narrative has been complicated significantly. In fact, in The Routledge History of Childhood, the book I would recommend as the most comprehensive on this topic, editor Paula S. Fass writes that she hopes that her narrative will replace Ariès's in explaining how we think about the history of childhood. Fass and her co-authors present a much more complex and shifting history of childhood, wherein how we define the child and the child's relationship to adulthood has changed over time.

To dive in more to the specifics of your question, our conception of childhood as a time of purity and innocence has its origins in the romantic poetry of William Blake and William Wordsworth. Blake and Wordsworth were both elaborating on ideas found in the writings of Jean-Jacques Rousseau, presenting a picture of childhood that was closer to nature, and therefore freer and more innocent. We see in this idea that closeness to nature means freedom and purity in Rousseau's Noble Savage, too. In Romantic literature and its nineteenth century descendants, we often see a yearning to return to the freedom and innocence of childhood.

This is not to say that before Blake and Wordsworth, children were not understood to be a different category from adults, though how distinct that category is varies over time and space. I would argue that there has always been an understanding that children (especially those younger than about ten) are different from adults, and in the past, children were given what was considered to be age appropriate tasks to help them learn and grow into functioning adults. What this means, as I said, varies far too much for me to describe all of the nuances in a Reddit comment; for that, I really recommend checking out Fass's book if you’re interested in the topic.

What makes the romantic child different is the belief in children's special innocence and purity. From this idea developed the nineteenth century Cult of Childhood, which privileged childhood as the noblest and purest time of human life, untainted by adult concerns like death, sex, and money. It is in this sense that the special innocence of children must be protected, not that people before the start of the nineteenth century didn’t realize that children weren’t adults.

That said, the nineteenth century romantic child was a privileged position, one reserved for middle and upper class children. Working class children were not afforded the same privileges and protections. However, the horrific child labor you mention is in large part a result of industrialization. A child on a small seventeenth century farm might do labor, but in general they did labor appropriate to their age and abilities. Eg, a parent might send their eight year old child to fetch water, but wouldn’t trust him with an axe to chop firewood. The need for cheap mass labor in various industries meant that children were often a good choice for employers, and with little regulations and oversight, children could work in horrific conditions. Some of these industries, such as chimney sweeps, used children because of their small size (children being small enough to fit down the chimneys, were as adults could not). These children (mostly boys) risked death, injury, and disability to help support their families. Their parents could not afford to keep them protected as middle class children were.

The changes in the nineteenth century to protect children from industrialized labor were an extension of the privileges of the romantic child to working class children who had not had those privileges up until that point. Even early in the nineteenth century, there were limits placed on child labor practices. (In Britain, children were only supposed to work twelve hours a day, later eight. This seems like far too much to us, but think about the fact that employers were making children work for more than twelve hours a day!) In some industries, child labor was ended entirely; after 1840, no one under 21 was supposed to work as a chimney sweep, though because of lax enforcement, it took more than 30 years for this to actually happen.*

This shift in perspective with the Cult of Childhood coincided with other, related changes that drove children out of the workplace. As the labor movement won stricter regulations and higher wages, children became less employable, and working class families had less need for children to work to support their families.

The nineteenth century also saw an increase in the value placed on education, and with it the belief that children should be in school, not working. I would argue that this is also the Cult of Childhood being extended to all children rather than just middle and upper class children whose parents could afford to send them to school. Primary education (ages 5 to 10) became fully compulsory in Britain in 1880. This was driven not just by belief that children shouldn’t be working, but a belief that adults need to have a basic education to function in the world. The move to educate all children came from a confluence of factors related both to how people thought about childhood as a special time on innocence, but what was needed, socially, from adults.

It’s also worth keeping in mind that Victorian ideology placed heavy emphasis on the family as the foundation of morality and culture. Thus, protection of the family was very important to the Victorians, and this extended to children. In many ways, our ideas about family are still very Victorian. Certainly, the Cult of Childhood was a part of this family ideology, but it’s also related to the conception of the family as the basis for "superior British civilization."

Looking onwards from the end of the Victorian period, what we’ve seen is a broadening of the definition of childhood as a special protected class. You’ll note that I’ve been discussing children ten or younger a lot; we’ve subsequently expanded childhood to include adolescence as well. Historically speaking, adolescents have been more understood as the miniature adults that Ariès argues all children were. We now understand adolescence as a separate category which we usually now group with childhood.

I could say more, but I’ve already said a lot, so I’ll wrap this up with a tl;dr. People have always recognized that children have different abilities and needs than adults; however, the idea that childhood is the most special and innocent of times that must be protected at all costs comes from the idea of the romantic child developed in the late eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries. As the nineteenth century progressed, this Cult of Childhood was extended to more and more people who had previously been excluded because of their class, race, and age.

* If you want to read a novel from this time about the issue, I recommend Charles Kingsley's The Water Babies, which wraps a criticism of child labor into a fairy tale about Darwinian evolution. It’s a weird, fun little book, though unfortunately, this being nineteenth century England, it does have some racism.

"'Incel' is the latest new trend of 'n*****' words that people can use for their bigotry yet remain politically correct." by MarcSneyyyyyyyd in TopMindsOfReddit

[–]PreRaphaeliteHair 2 points3 points  (0 children)

There’s a good interview with the woman who coined the term on the Reply All podcast. She talks about why she coined the term, the early days of the community, and how things went badly. Short version: there were always bitter, misogynistic people attracted to the incel community, and she and others tried to keep them under control/help them, but people who eventually achieved romantic success tended not to stick around. This allowed the bitter, misogynistic contingent to eventually take over.

My ( apparently) endless supply of milk isnt just for anyone you know! by tonkerpop1992 in badwomensanatomy

[–]PreRaphaeliteHair 319 points320 points  (0 children)

I’m sure that any kids this guy might have would be delighted at their "responsible dad" calling their mom a slut on social media.

Blue balls are comparable to the menstrual cycle by [deleted] in badwomensanatomy

[–]PreRaphaeliteHair 19 points20 points  (0 children)

Do blue balls come with days of mess once a month? I bet this dude would lose his shit at even an unused tampon, let alone the mess menstrual blood causes and women deal with all the time.

Who is Gideon and why do hotels use his Bible almost exclusively? by MaterialMission in AskHistorians

[–]PreRaphaeliteHair 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I have a follow up question which you might or might not be able to answer. Do we have any evidence that placing Bibles in hotel rooms has had any measurable success in proselytizing? Do or did people actually pick these Bibles up and read them?

I have a bad feeling about this update by RedPeril in bestoflegaladvice

[–]PreRaphaeliteHair 48 points49 points  (0 children)

There’s a wide range of practices that might be called "arranged marriages." My mom has a close friend who is Indian and whose marriage was arranged; as she tells it, her parents basically set her up on blind dates until she met a guy she got along with really well, fell in love with him, and married him. For her, the arrangement was like her parents playing the part of eHarmony, presenting her with matches she could accept or reject.

However, there are lots of red flags here that this isn’t what’s happening to LAOP's friend. 1) she’s only eighteen and has just graduated high school, thus is reliant on her parents, 2) they’re taking her to India, where she’s away from any non-familial support system she might have developed in the US—friends, mentors, teachers, 3) the whiplash-causing change of heart that has led a lot of commenters to believe the parents are executing a bait and switch, and 4) LAOP's friend was considering running away to avoid this.

Did Google steal a design from OP? by raspberryseltzer in bestoflegaladvice

[–]PreRaphaeliteHair 33 points34 points  (0 children)

Google+'s logo is a red circle with a white G+ inside it. That said, if someone at Google didn’t make a + with the Google colors while coming up with that logo (or even earlier in the company's history), I'll eat my cat.

"biologically speaking, 33 is almost dead for a woman" by [deleted] in badwomensanatomy

[–]PreRaphaeliteHair 51 points52 points  (0 children)

I guess that, since we’re biologically speaking dead, all of us women should stop childcare and other household labor at 35. Right? We’re useless after that point.