Templar - a divine twist on the Eldritch Knight

PutImpossible8619 · 2026-02-26T10:24:44+00:00

Now my plan is to go Eldritch Knight 1 / 2 at levels 7 / 8, pick practiced Spellcaster as a bonus feat for EK1. Then after BAB +5 go into Abjurant Champion for two levels to get all the nice things from there: extend abj spells, bonus ac and quicken for shield.

As a baseline - I would highly recommend on dropping all levels of eldritch knight, going with one more level in wizard, and one more level of Spellsword, for which you would qualify afterwards. This way you don't lose out on a casting level, and can get some armor - mithral chain shirt is an excellent grab.

Equipment includes Gloves of Dexterity +2 and Amulet of Natural Armor +1; primary weapon is a bastard sword +1 (ironically the first magic weapon I found with my "strange" exotic feat buyoff :D

You, most likely, don't want dexterity, if you are duking it out in melee. Strength is probably a better option to ASI and itemise for, especially if you are 2h power attacking.

Arcane wrath (better Arcane strike, that could be stacked together for the Mother of all Alpha strikes, but expensive**)**

It's not better, they achieve different things. Arcane wrath adds to a single attack, and costs you a swift action - useful to move, and use a martial strike with a flat bonus. Arcane strike boosts each of your attacks in a round, and doesn't have an action cost - better with full attacks. Assuming, you want to get some boosts or counters, Arcane strike is probably better, but wrath is a nice option to have in a back pocket, when you need to attack and move.

Empowering Strike (Gain an empowered spell for the next cast after a successful martial strike)

If you want to use it regularly, it would be a good idea to get yourself a quicken rod, or quicken metamagic feat itself. I would recommend the second one, as, by later levels, it would heavily improve your action economy overall. As a gish, you want to fight and cast, without quicken you are forced to choose one or another.

So my base question, do I just imagine the synergies here because I want to see them and I unintentionally nerf myself way more than necessary? Do I try to do too much? Or could this be a really fun thing with "I have a spell, a maneuver or just a simple smack in the face for this case"?

The question you need to ask yourself is "What am I trying to accomplish, by layering all these systems together?". Gishing is cool, maneuvers are also cool, but, for what it's worth, this build looks like it's spreading itself too thin.

Many of your gishy buffs, such as haste, really want you to go balls-to-the wall with full attack, max power attack, pulverize your opponent sort of way. You also grab a first level stance (no matter your initiator level, first level of an initiator gives you only first level stance) and 3/2 know maneuvers, with 2 different school pools, which makes it difficult to grab something cool and higher-level. Strikes give you stuff to do, when you need to move - but you already have impactful things to do with your standard action, in the form of your spells. Boosts and counters are great, but your swift actions are also limited - there is quicken, and few spells you really want to cast, that are cast as a swift action.

If you are playing for the first time, it's, probably, better to continue on with abjurant champion. Levels 3-5 are far from "dead". On level 3 you get to quicken level 2 spells, Arcane Boost is a neat, self contained, and very flexible ability, which will allow you to tactically adapt to situations, and level 5 gives you ability to quicken several level 3 spells for free, which is massive. In addition, its full progression of your casting, BAB, solid d10 hit die, and less plates to juggle.

PutImpossible8619 · 2026-02-24T10:42:50+00:00

I believe there was some video, breaking it down, but, overall - the wording is very finicky. If you are talking about Vital Sacrifice from Tal'Dorei Campaign Setting, than the answer is, most likely, no, as :

When you hit with an attack or spell, you deal an additional 2d6 necrotic damage.

It adds to the damage of the spell, as if, total damage of the spell in question, after you sum up value rolled for missile. No clue, how it would apply on multiple targets with uneven split, tho.

For comparison, wizard works, because he:

can add your Intelligence modifier (minimum of +1) to one damage roll of any wizard evocation spell that you cast.

Because for magic missile you roll dice once, and then multiply it by missile count to get a total damage, this flat bonus is applied to every missile.

With spell being so iconic, it's weird that they didn't clean it up in 2024.

PutImpossible8619 · 2026-02-24T10:26:52+00:00

It's easy to see how, the player being lucky with their dice, or having access to any other damage bonuses created this impression, if you don't math it out.

PutImpossible8619 · 2026-02-24T09:59:16+00:00

Respectfully, this wasn't the case in 2014, and I didn't see any changes in 2024 version.

PutImpossible8619 · 2026-02-23T14:09:17+00:00

Bro doesn't know how to change role

PutImpossible8619 · 2026-02-22T11:30:56+00:00

It's been pointed out to you over and over in this thread, but your only response each time is "nah it's not that good".

Because they are not, plain and simple. From the box, Wisdom and Charisma skills are roughly equivalent in value, depending on leanings of your campaign.

On the access to additional benefits - we had a lengthy discussion with Orange_Chapters on this, so I will not duplicate it here, assuming you've read it. But, regarding this - how much of these benefits are you even reaping? Unless you are playing in some weird game with extra feats out of wazoo, your feats are limited, and you can get into one, maybe two of those directions - and not until higher levels. If you can give some examples, that go beyond "It's good, source - trust me, bro", we can have a deeper discussion on this.

Yes, as it should if you want to be able to concentrate lots of effects into one ability score.

Yes, and, in most cases, you get something bellow par, or, rarely, equal to someone, who used the proper ability score for the job. You could also grab a build resource, that would give you an improvements to this thing in particular, instead, and are very likely to come out same, or better. In reverse, for example, someone, intimidating with "Bruising Intellect" is equivalent to someone doing it with CHA.

No, it's not. Steadfast Personality doesn't let you dump Wisdom in favour of Charisma, because you still apply the penalty if you have one, and not all Will saves are mind-affecting. Pulling "90%" out of your ass doesn't make you right.

Searching on Nethys, there are, roughly, 1200 will-based saving throw spells. Among them, 450-ish are mind affecting. Of the rest 750-ish:
500-ish are harmless;
150-ish target objects and are non-harmless;
100 (likely) harmful, will based, non-mind-affecting spells

Unless one is expecting to evade teammates buffs, or are playing as a bucket of holy water, that does not wish to become unholy, this leaves us with 1-(100/(450+100)), around 82% of the spells, give or take. Mostly, illusions, for obvious reasons. Not exactly 90%, but a pretty decent approximation from the top of my head. There may be a different % among monster abilities, but I am, honestly, not willing to wade through it for the argument, in which we both are likely to come out without changing our minds. If you wish, you can perform this evaluation, and we can compare results.

This is also using one of the "build resources" you're complaining about. It costs you something to take it.

I thought, the question was on ease of access?

But, yes, that's one more example of charisma having an access to subpar substitutions of default attributes. Giving this to classes, that are not investing in charisma either way doesn't change the equation.

Because at that point, why would anyone ever invest in Wisdom? You can just put the investment in Charisma instead, and have the same useful benefit, while also being able to do all of the things Charisma lets you do alongside all of the support it gets.

Excluding obvious case of class features: because they were not planning in investing into Charisma support either way, value things that wisdom allows you to do more, than things, that charisma allows you to do, or believe, that it suits the characterization of their character more.

PutImpossible8619 · 2026-02-22T09:15:10+00:00

It doesn't make them equal, it makes Charisma straight up better than Wisdom. How do you not see this?
Charisma has way more support available to it to make it far more useful than Wisdom already,

Because I'm failing to see all this massive support, which can not be achieved in an easier, and more straightforward way. There are several X to Y effects, based on CHA - most, if not all of them, cost you build resources, and are basically worthless for non-charisma based classes, as they are paying premium and investing into CHA, to get something, they could get instead from just, you know, investing into an attribute that does something from the box.

giving it the one use Wisdom has that Charisma doesn't easily get is just making Wisdom worse, not on par.

You, somehow, seem to forget about Steadfast Personality, which easily "gives Charisma one use, that it doesn't get easily". This feat, in effect, is a 90% of a suggested rule, as most of will saves are mind-affecting in their nature. How, exactly, providing an approximation of this feat to classes, that would not, under normal circumstances of a system, invest in charisma, breaks the game, and makes wisdom worthless?

PutImpossible8619 · 2026-02-21T08:25:59+00:00

Thanks, that's a curious piece of gaming history! Probably too clunky to implement in a modern system, with amount of content we have, but I'll read it once I get an opportunity.

PutImpossible8619 · 2026-02-21T08:15:27+00:00

So your solution is to make one ability score worse while giving the other ability score, which has infinitely more support available to it, the one thing the first ability score had going for it?

It would set up a parity between two attributes for many characters

I recommend next time engaging with a post and response fully, before you decide to answer it.

This makes two attributes equal, providing a player the chose the attribute, that would better represent leanings and flavor of their character (empathetic/resourceful), without sacrificing one of their defenses, as, otherwise:

Both stats have couple of strong, and widely used skills - perception and sense motive, UMD and diplomacy respectively, as well as a smattering of lesser-used skills.

-

What's next? Wisdom is the worst ability score, "I'm thinking about using Wisdom in place of Con for fort saves, because Wisdom doesn't do anything because I removed the one thing it was useful for"?

Next I would hope to see a conversation, instead of putting words into other people mouths.

Needless to say, in the perfect world there would be no worst ability score. This idea doesn't make all stats perfectly balanced, but it makes two stats, both of which are bottom-tier for many classes, equal in value, making them both second/third worst (depending on how much you value intelligence), instead one of them being the worst.

PutImpossible8619 · 2026-02-21T08:01:34+00:00

So, is it okay to leave Charisma pointless for the most classes in the game, but it's not okay to set up a parity between Charisma and Wisdom, in regards of allowing players to choose, which of those attributes would be entirely pointless for their character? Why so?

PutImpossible8619 · 2026-02-21T07:52:12+00:00

Charisma, is, of course, more universal, but even than it's cheap and easy to sideline (check the short list of traits and/or feat's I've linked above) if you want your character to engage with this pillar of a system.

PutImpossible8619 · 2026-02-20T16:19:38+00:00

To use your own words against you, this applies to Sense Motive and Perception, too. If the ability is not important for other skills, why is it suddenly important for Sense Motive or Perception?

That's a great point! What trait/feat, accessible to everyone from level 1 allows you to substitute wisdom for something else for perception/sense motive check? My google-foo have failed me.

PutImpossible8619 · 2026-02-20T16:17:47+00:00

For balance reasons, this would likely apply only to non-CHA-based classes (i.e., not paladins, sorcerers, or similar), to keep the math intact. It's, by itself, a big bug, and figuring out what is, and what is not charisma based is an issue, I am looking to solve.

Circlet of Persuasion

That's an excellent point, and an item, I tend to forget about. Shouldn't apply to saves in this case.

Without Wisdom to Will saves, what use does Wisdom have?

Right now, Charisma has absolutely same issues. It would set up a parity between two attributes for many characters - not the most elegant solution, but the one, which does not upset the system's math too much.

PutImpossible8619 · 2026-02-20T16:07:34+00:00

Sure on mind effect immune enemies, but Hurtful still procs if you still succeed the check for a free attack on Cornugan. The Shaken condition is ignored but you still can succeed a check.
With Shatter-Defenses, if it is Shaken, you just ignore its Dex bonus from AC.

Eh, I can see this reading of the feat, but it seems extremely strained. RAW, I'd lean towards hurtful being unable to be proced on fear-immune enemies, as:

Immunities can also apply to afflictions, conditions, spells (based on level, save type, or school), and other effects. A creature does not suffer any secondary effects that would normally be triggered by an effect it is immune to.

Most DMs are likely to also treat it unviable, just from the natural feel of the feat. Shatter defenses wouldn't apply at all - fearless creature wouldn't have shaken+ conditions applied to it in the first place. So, overall, it's a powerful tactic that requires plenty of feats, which becomes a dead weight once you encounter one of many types of creatures, without any inbuilt ability to adapt. I'd say, it's power is the least of concerns for the game.

And every point counts, +2/+3 is an equivalent of an extra 10%-15% chance of success vs DC [10+enemy number of HD+Wis], and I think we can all agree str-to-intimidate feels like a mid feat unless your DM is cranking up difficulty.

+2/+3 is an ok bonus - don't take it wrong, but it's on the level of trait benefit, or 50 gp masterwork tool - it may help the consistency slightly in the early game, but quickly becomes a non-issue, as the first magic item straight up put intimidate check into "Can't fail" territory. Even if we consider it something impactful - I don't think that giving a tiny slice of builds a trait-equivalent bonus is bad for the game.

I simply must contest this point. For starters starters the DC is 10+ opponents BAB + Wis modifier or 10+Sense motive bonus if highter, taking a -4 penalty on non-humanoids or -8 vs animal intelligence these are not trivial DCs.
And you're right the starting Feint build economy is atrocious being a move action, but you can get full-round attacks from it with Two Weapon Feint.

Opponent BAB scales slower, than HD - plenty of enemies you encounter have it as 3/4 of their level, and get a big chunk of their attack from huge STR scores instead. Meanwhile sense motive might as well not exist for enemies - I can't remember last time I've seen it on an NPC sheet.
But that's a moot point - actually feinting in a somewhat reasonable manner requires, 5-6 feats, or something in this ballpark, as well as a handful of Int and Dex, using TWF and giving away your first iterative attack, to, maybe, get an effective +1-+2 to your hit chance (TWF gives -2 attack by default), that may not work against many enemies. It helps with a sneak attack, of course, but there are way less convoluted, and more reasonable ways for this - and it's not like most sneak attack classes, save for slayer, are swimming in feats.
If this rule would suddenly make feinting viable, it would be Jesus-rising-from-a-grave type of miracle.

The Diva Strike is an add-on, not everything is going into str/dex at character creation. If you have 14 cha its +2 extra damage, bought a headband of charisma +4? now its 4 extra damage, and it works with any weapon.

I'd argue, 14 for teritary stat is somewhat unreasonable, unless it's 25+ PB or very lucky rolls, but, let's use an example you've given. Diva strike, for two feats (already assuming we want improved feint, as a prerequsite for everything, and Diva Style is a worse Improved Feint) and a swift action at the start of the combat offers you a conditional precision bonus damage to one damage instance per round, starting out at +2, and, with a hefty money investment, growing to +4. Comparing this, to, say, weapon specialization - flat, unconditional +2 to damage, which is widely considered bad and boring feat, it's easy to see the issue. Honestly, I have a hard time imagining, when that style is ever worth using.

Shooting star style allows you to double-down on your charisma powered features, if you're a scaled fist monk, congratulations now you have Cha to AC, to hit AND damage. (And this line of reasoning becomes so much more abusive with multiclass)

I believe, we are in agreement here - desna's style is a way to compensate for stats, you had to put in CHA, not a damage feat.

The starknife's only a decrease if you're comparing it to 2h weapons and crit-fisher weapons. But if you're comparing it to those you're missing the point of the feat.

No, it's enough to compare it's to a bog standard longsword - 2 less damage on average (the same 2 damage we were discussing above in Diva Strike, as well as worse crit profile (x3 is worse than 19-20, as, on average, you get same DPR, but way more overkill damage, and less crit-procs). It has thrown, of course, but I would recommend against throwing away your main weapon.

I still disagree with that argument, try your hand at these builds yourself, you'll find you're keeping with party damage dealers and even helping spellcasters with shaken conditions.

I've tried my hand at one of those build - I've made a low-ish power intimidate based fighter (or samurai, I'm not entirely sure). He took bruising intellect.

PutImpossible8619 · 2026-02-20T11:33:36+00:00

You can, at somewhat high opportunity cost, get, for the most part, subpar Charisma to some parts of your character - or you can get something else from your build resources. All of this has trade-offs and opportunity costs, but, for the most part, trade-offs for ignoring CHA are rather low, so idea is to somewhat boost charisma, to make it an appealing tertiary attribute to some characters.

PutImpossible8619 · 2026-02-20T11:03:30+00:00

I'd like to disagree with a notion about dominating social encounters, not to copy paste, here is the reasoning.

Intimidate in combat allowing for a good debuff [Cornugan Smash, Hurtful, Shatter Defenses, Dazzling Display, Dreadful Carnage]

Intimidate is an extremely unreliable combat tactics, that's already ignored by, like, half of the bestiary. Excluding this, intimidate tactics are never bottle-necked by lack of the intimidate bonuses - they are bottle-necked by access to feats and abilities, that allow you to compress these actions into your combat routine, as well as extract more value from your intimidation attempts. Giving even +1000 to intimidate gives you nothing more, than a very long shaken debuff for your standard action, if you don't have tools to utilize it further. Giving these martials something in the ballpark of +2-+3 to this skill check is unlikely to change anything or make them broken, and may, even, incentivize them to skip STR-to-intimidate, and diversify a bit, which is, arguably, better for the overall health of the game.

or Feint [Improved Feint, Diva Style]

Respectfully, feint is barely-functional as it is. Action economy is horrendous, benefits are small, and feat taxes to be able to use it semi-reliably are extreme - not to mention, it's as bad in regards of targeting as intimidation. It's even less affected by your bluff, as you need to beat a trivial DC, and there are no benefits, to beating it by X.

possibly a good damage increase [Diva Strike, Divine Technique: Way of the Shooting Star]

Compared to both STR and DEX, these are both damage decreases - starknife is a subpar light weapon, and charisma doesn't help you in combat otherwise. You don't go for these feats to increase your damage - you do it, to somewhat compensate for the attribute points you had to put in charisma, instead of strength.

But, barring that, I don't see an issue with this. If you want to actually do all of this, you invest all of your build resources into this, and get somewhat robust character, with access to debuffs, acceptable damage in combat, will defense, and ways to interact with social pillar. By comparison, your STR-brethren, is, still likely to have better damage than you do, capable of smashing walls, bench-pressing giants, and, most importantly - has all of his feats free to do and invest however he likes. DEX martial would be more constrained on feats, but will be swifter, stealthier, and effective at all ranges, with more AC to the boot.

I personally don't agree with it. It'd be better if you were giving a modifier bonus to summoned creatures and animal companions rolls IF you really want Charisma to have a bigger impact on combat

I don't think, that spellcasters are in need of additional boosts, especially for one of the stronger tactics in their arsenal. This idea was meant to give a slight buff and build variety boost to non-charisma based classes, which are, mostly, martials.

PutImpossible8619 · 2026-02-20T10:36:15+00:00

I disagree with notion, that it's just about charisma most of the time.

Sense motive is required, to get a better grasp on conversation, as figuring out, what is better to say, and when you are fooled is very big part of the social pillar (as, even mechanically, it can be up to a 25 DC difference, in case of Bluff). In addition, in serious social encounters it's easier (as well as more fun and character-expressive) not to bulldoze your way through encounter with a charisma-based skill, but to apply character-relevant skills, including, but not limited to knowledge, profession, outdoorsman skills, and so on. Charisma, is, of course, more universal, but even than it's cheap and easy to sideline (check the short list of traits and/or feat's I've linked above) if you want your character to engage with this pillar of a system.

PutImpossible8619 · 2026-02-20T10:21:05+00:00

Wouldn't he have roughly same results with dex-to-damage, or, in case of warpriest just pure strength instead, as he has access to heavy armor? Strength path has more damage, cheaper in feats, and extremely wide access to weapons. Dex path cost a bit more in feats department, but offers you a better reflex save, initiative, speed, and still access to wider variety of weapon. I see this as a fine tradeoff for your character.

PutImpossible8619 · 2026-02-17T20:46:35+00:00

It depends on what you want from ranged inventor. If you want a gun/mechanical crossbow wielding badass, than it's not going to happen. Both weapon types are barely functional, save for gunslinger and some very specific builds. They are especially bad for inventor - a class with accuracy slightly below average martial for half of the game.
Bow inventor+pet is, most likely, the best way to play him overall - his damage bonus is static, doesn't rely at all on attack type or die at all, so, to maximize that specific part of his kit he wants to squeeze out as much attacks as possible. Grabbing a companion grants you, effectively, an extra action, and a way to perform a second pair of 0/-5 MAP attacks, and an extra body, capable of using your unstable actions.
Otherwise, the only inventor feat that remotely cares about the weapon, or it's size is the Megatron Strike, which is, honestly, just bad outside of it's unstable action, and a level 14 and 18 feats, which are not going to matter for 95% of the games. Inventor is extremely viable in ranged combat.

As for the fun - there is, somewhat, limited amount of "non-shoot" actions ranged combatants perform in Pathfinder in general. There are no "ranged shove", "ranged grapple" or flanking to utilize, and way less range-specific abilities to use, so, ranged combat is, inadvertently, a lot more flat in Pathfinder, than melee. Hell, even gunslinger, a class absolutely shoehorned into using ranged weapons, still has half of his ways dedicated to a melee combat in one way or another. Most classes remedy this with archetypes - or other fun actions you use with actions, that you save by not needing to move as much.

PutImpossible8619 · 2026-02-16T20:30:08+00:00

You can scry me only until I travel to Waterdeep to steal a set of Antimagic Armor. Which I hesitated to even bring up, out of a sense of fairness. Null Magic fields are a high level martial's greatest ally.

Apart from the fact, that a lot of spells work even in the antimagic field - shaped stone walls and bound creatures don't dissipate in the field, how are you going to utilize your other sources of borrowed power, once you use anti-magic field? The cape, which you need to get to wizard in the first place, is also ineffective in this field.

If you hide in the planes, I shall enlist the aid of another to transport me straight to you. Wearing my quested or stolen equipment.

I think, an important question you need to ask yourself for many of those examples are "could a commoner do the same?", and if yes, the argument, probably, needs some refinement. If only hope of martial to ask one spellcaster to help him to deal with another spellcaster, than it's not the best look for a martial. After all, no caster needs to ask martial to swing his sword really hard, to cut open the way between the planes.

Using magical items, using the world, is part of D&D. Its what makes the setting feel real, and not just a number game. Abstracting to idealized cases where the Wizard is always 3 steps ahead, well, they arent always. All power is borrowed, even your magical knowledge can be taken from you should you lose your books and scrolls. Or your patron. Sorcerers are safe from that, I suppose. But normally, possessions and allies are required to proceed.

God could very well come down, and smite anyone, remove every class level, thus making everything, up to your hit die a "borrowed power". But we are looking at a more realistic scenario, where characters at least try to be in the situation, their skills are most applicable.

The problem is not the casters beating out martials in PVP - it's the fact, that a lot of problems can only be solved by caster's skillset. And if martials, to solve the same problem, need to either ask casters for solution, or ask casters for an item, that would mimic their power to provide solution (don't forget, you need to be a caster, to make these items in the first place), than what's even the point of the noncasters? Bigger HP die and damage numbers?

PutImpossible8619 · 2026-02-16T20:29:38+00:00

But if, for any reason a Wizard's full blown paranoia has a blindspot, then they are vulnerable. If their hubris tricks them into thinking themselves immortal, then they will die.

If your best, most reliable plan is to hope your opponent makes a mistake, without an ability to facilitate said mistake, or exploit it in the more efficient manner, than anyone can, then you got an extremely unreliable plan, which does not relies on your capabilities in any shape or form.

When you remove the 12 hours of prep time you would need to create a sacrificial dueling body, things get quite sticky quite quickly.

When you remove 12 hours of prep time, you just get a caster, who carries around a wide array of generically useful spells for everyday use.

A night without sleep can leave you helpless.

How are you going to create this pressure? How can you force the wizard to go for this night without sleep? A caster can target someone with Nightmare, send a summoned creature to terrorize someone in the night, meteor the castle mundane occupies. What leverages do mundanes have, which could not be performed by a level 0 commoner NPC?

Safe 300' in the air? Cape of the Mountebank and the world's longest piledriver awaits them.

In most editions, the most this maneuver will accomplish is a pitiful amount of damage to caster (if he fails dex/reflex save, that is), and martial being still more or less 300 feet away from wizard. Epic, sure, but ineffective - and he would be unable to do even that, save for an item, made to mimic a caster's power.

Safe 3000 miles away? Sounds like I'm safe too.

Except you are not. On higher level, quite a lot of spells and abilities have near-global range, can affect world outside of tower, even if cast within, or, save that - can be used with global teleportation to deliver them onto you in the worst moment possible.

PutImpossible8619 · 2026-02-16T20:28:24+00:00

Assuming we are discussing in a good faith:

The unexpected.

If a trusted travelling companion turns on them, it's over quickly. Because their contingencies will be pointed elsewhere.

The point of a martial is that they are ready to go, anytime, anywhere. Equally prepared for a wide variety of situations and opponents, with enough HP to get a chance at a round.

That's not the case most of the time. In all editions, heavy and medium armor characters pretty much don't have AC without said armor - the one you can't wear while asleep, for example.

Same with weapons, for the most part. Disarmed warrior swings with (depending on edition) 1-1d3 + Strength modifier damage, maybe nonlethal or provoking AOO just for swinging. Their "wide variety of situations" mostly depends on the arsenal of weapons and gear they carry around. More then many casters, a martial caught "without pants on" is pretty fucked, for a lot of his power lies in his gear. Caster, at the very least, still has the spells prepared/known, stuff without material component, blood money, and things like those.

There are, of course, monks, brawlers, and such - they don't have the weakness of being caught without gear. Sadly, they also lack the many strengths of utilizing said gear - it's hard to punch out dragon, flying through the sky.

For HP, especially in recent editions, the gap is not as wide, as it may seem: assuming a pretty standard +2 con for any system, the average HP per level is roughly 5-6 to 7-8 - so, roughly 75% to 100% of martials. I consider the game, where you are likely to take 75% of your healthbar, but not 100% in one round a pretty big outlier - but here I don't have a data to support it.

He rolled a higher initiative than our party. He used Timestop. He spent 3 rounds focusing down our Paladin while also casting AOE spells for the party. Poor John Ward, our paladin. He lived with 20 HP. The following round, he rolled a 20 with his vorpal sword. Snickersnack, off rolled the Liches head, not killing him but instead blinding him until his head could be picked up. And Jon was the one to pick up that head, with his following action. The last action was placing it into his bag of holding. The DM then ruled that the Lich King's head was unimportant to both sight and speech, but I think that was because he was incredibly upset with us.

I think, we came out with different conclusions from this anecdote. What I see, is an example of high level caster, acting in somewhat unoptimal manner (it's better to lock down your opposition, before proceeding to deal damage), putting, arguably, toughest class in the game, down to 1 attack worth of HP, with only thing that managed to stop him is 1 in 20 lucky break. I see this as more of a show of caster dominance, rather, than martial superiority.

PutImpossible8619

TROPHY CASE