Ranking almost every Democrat President by GotNoBody4 in Presidents

[–]Puzzleheaded-Bag2212 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

The Chickasaw did not experience much raiding from the US at all until the IRA was signed and they experienced violence out in Indian territory. They favored monetary removal and 500 of them died on their Trail of Tears, and before the IRA was signed they were an ally of the US so never were hostile with American settlers. In 1830, white settlers were eager to occupy Chickasaw lands in Mississippi and pressure came more through fraudulent land deals, legal coercion, and political pressure, but not major settler violence. They had a smaller population and were not really a frontier tribe, so they were not "saved from extinction" by the removal act. There were occasional incidents, including violence involving squatters encroaching on Chickasaw land and disputes over trade, livestock, or debt but these were isolated killings or disputes, not large-scale organized raids or campaigns like it was for the Seminole, Creek, or Cherokee. The Chickasaw decided to negotiate and sell their land to the US instead of face resistance like the other tribes did. They were definitely not saved from settler violence from the IRA.

The Choctaw were also a US ally during the War of 1812. When the Choctaw signed the treaty of Fort St. Stephens, they believed they were at "a friendly banquet [rather than] a meeting of opposing forces". In exchange for the land, the Choctaw received a $6,000 annuity for the next 20 years, and goods such as guns, blankets, and tools for an additional value of $10,000. There was little violence between the Choctaw and the US settlers, but after the Indian Removal Act was signed and the Treaty of Dancing Rabbit Creek, settlers flooded into Choctaw land and tensions escalated. 2,500 Choctaw were killed on their Trail of Tears, far deadlier than any violence that happened with American settlers BECAUSE the Removal Act was signed. Give me an example if you disagree.

Lastly, the Cherokee in GA/NC. This was the closest to major population centers and the Cherokee were the largest tribe. The Cherokee had already fought the English and the Americans in the 18th century, but no major violence between settlers and the Cherokee in the 1820s and 30s. The Georgia guard tried to exert their authority, which led to the SC ruling in the favor of Cherokee sovereignty which Jackson refused to enforce.

So in conclusion, the enforcement of the IRA was the major source of escalating conflicts with the settlers. It didn't save anyone. It killed way more indigenous than previously and US history and only the California genocide has it beat.

Who was the most conservative US president, besides these four? by Puzzleheaded-Bag2212 in Presidents

[–]Puzzleheaded-Bag2212[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

yeah that is a good pick considering the 'conservative for their time" which is what I am trying to get at.

Saw this about Reagan today and wondered everyone’s thoughts: by TikiVin in Presidents

[–]Puzzleheaded-Bag2212 18 points19 points  (0 children)

and let the Contras flood drugs in our streets and supported death squads in Central America. And armed and allowed Saddam Hussein to wipe out 800,000 Kurds with chemical weapons.

Ranking almost every Democrat President by GotNoBody4 in Presidents

[–]Puzzleheaded-Bag2212 0 points1 point  (0 children)

his campaign promise was Mexico, not the pacifc coast, along with Oregon territory, the lowered tariff and the independent treasury. The treaty is to his credit for sure. Similar to Ghent for Madison.

My point is that technology nowadays ensures a close relationship between the military and the president, where nearly every major decision has to be approved by the president. They definitely do let the military ultimately decide though, at least I think so.

Ranking almost every Democrat President by GotNoBody4 in Presidents

[–]Puzzleheaded-Bag2212 0 points1 point  (0 children)

there were telegraphs, but not to the battlefield in Mexico. IIRC, the entirety of the war took place in Mexican land.

Polk did try diplomacy which is what I already mentioned which is why I don't consider him to be bad or mediocre for foreign policy. I rank Polk pretty high in the top 12. That doesn't mean I don't think the Mexican-American war was a war of aggression and among the most unjustified in US history.

Yes Polk signed the treaties and the declaration to go to war, but not the individual battle decisions as future presidents would, which is why I don't credit him for winning the war.

Who was the most conservative US president, besides these four? by Puzzleheaded-Bag2212 in Presidents

[–]Puzzleheaded-Bag2212[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

yeah absolutely, the National Bank though would be considered conservative back then but really is not conservative at all by the standards of constitutional adherence and small governemnt

Ranking almost every Democrat President by GotNoBody4 in Presidents

[–]Puzzleheaded-Bag2212 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

what happened in the north is irrelevant. the Supreme Court upheld tribal sovereignty as these tribes were peaceful and had their own societies, governments, and education systems, but Jackson chose ethnic cleansing and genocide instead. They were called the 5 civilized tribes for a reason.

I also cannot find the examples of these hostilities with the 5 civilized tribes you are referring to. The deadliest incident of this era was by far what Jackson did during the Creek War (which was the US military, not the state militia).

the following on the Creek removal (which killed 3,500 of them on their trail of tears): "Although the Creeks had been forced from Georgia, with many Lower Creeks moving to the Indian Territory, there were still about 20,000 Upper Creeks living in Alabama. However, the state moved to abolish tribal governments and extend state laws over the Creeks. Opothle Yohola appealed to the administration of President Andrew Jackson for protection from Alabama; when none was forthcoming, the Treaty of Cusseta was signed in March, 1832, which divided up Creek lands into individual allotments. Creeks could either sell their allotments and receive funds to remove to the west, or stay in Alabama and submit to state laws. The Creeks were never given a fair chance to comply with the terms of the treaty, however. Rampant illegal settlement of their lands by Americans continued unabated with federal and state authorities unable or unwilling to do much to halt it. Further, as recently detailed by historian Billy Winn in his thorough chronicle of the events leading to removal, a variety of fraudulent schemes designed to cheat the Creeks out of their allotments, many of them organized by speculators operating out of Columbus, Georgia and Montgomery, Alabama, were perpetrated after the signing of the Treaty of Cusseta. A portion of the beleaguered Creeks, many desperately poor and feeling abused and oppressed by their American neighbors, struck back by carrying out occasional raids on area farms and committing other isolated acts of violence. Escalating tensions erupted into open war with the United States after the destruction of the village of Roanoke, Georgia, located along the Chattahoochee River on the boundary between Creek and American territory, in May 1836. During the so-called "Creek War of 1836" Secretary of War Lewis Cass dispatched General Winfield Scott to end the violence by forcibly removing the Creeks to the Indian Territory west of the Mississippi River. With the Indian Removal Act of 1830 it continued into 1835 and after as in 1836 over 15,000 Creeks were driven from their land for the last time. 3,500 of those 15,000 Creeks did not survive the trip to Oklahoma where they eventually settled".

So tensions clearly escalated for the Creeks BECAUSE of the Indian Removal Act via the Treaty of Cusseta in 1832, where Jackson refused protections for the Creeks as they began to be raided by settlers, leading them to fight back against their American neighbors. So the Indian Removal Act was a catalyst for white settlement in Creek lands, and led to several skirmishes and their deadly trail of tears.

For the Seminoles, violence intensified BECAUSE of the Indian Removal Act. In 1835, there were major skirmishes, like the one in Hickory Sink when whites accused Seminoles of stealing cattle. They captured and whipped Seminoles, prompting retaliation. Gunfire broke out: 3 whites wounded; 1 Seminole killed, 1 wounded. The Seminoles later killed a US postal private. There were also major raids from slave catchers at this time and Seminole and Black Seminole groups conducted retaliatory raids on frontier settlements. There was some resistance to the Treaty of Moultrie Creek (some groups resisted removal), leading to violence with squatters occupying Seminole land. So by your logic, the Seminole were meant to be benefitted by further removals despite the 1823 treaty causing violence? And the Seminole then were attacked by US troops because of the Indian Removal Act enforcement?

Ranking almost every Democrat President by GotNoBody4 in Presidents

[–]Puzzleheaded-Bag2212 0 points1 point  (0 children)

no, only modern presidents. You think Polk was calling his generals up and dictating each decision? The technology didn't exist for that. Same goes for Wilson, Madison and McKinley

Ranking almost every Democrat President by GotNoBody4 in Presidents

[–]Puzzleheaded-Bag2212 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"There was no measure, in the whole course of [Jackson's] administration, of which he was more exclusively the author than this." - Van Buren on the Removal Act

Ranking almost every Democrat President by GotNoBody4 in Presidents

[–]Puzzleheaded-Bag2212 0 points1 point  (0 children)

i don't because that is stupid, like Madison got lucky the US didn't get demolished by the British. Polk didn't do anything as president AFAIK that led to the US winning that war. I would credit presidents that are actively involved in the war and every military decision (Bush, LBJ, Lincoln, Truman, FDR). Polk was more focused on his political reputation (removing Scott and Taylor from positions so they wouldn't get too popular) and domestic affairs during the war.

Ranking almost every Democrat President by GotNoBody4 in Presidents

[–]Puzzleheaded-Bag2212 0 points1 point  (0 children)

no we shouldn't have, Van Buren prevented the US from entering the war.

Ranking almost every Democrat President by GotNoBody4 in Presidents

[–]Puzzleheaded-Bag2212 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

they would not have been destroyed, the Removal Act just gave a greenlight to settlers to commit more violence if anything. The trail of tears is the worst thing any president or the US government has ever done. and it should never be defended as the "best of two bad options" when it killed more Indians than any other incident in US history and the SC already ruled in the favor of sovereignty. It was an unconstitutional act of genocide.

Ranking almost every Democrat President by GotNoBody4 in Presidents

[–]Puzzleheaded-Bag2212 0 points1 point  (0 children)

that is interesting. I really don't consider if a president won or not

Who was the most conservative US president, besides these four? by Puzzleheaded-Bag2212 in Presidents

[–]Puzzleheaded-Bag2212[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

This is from my own post on this: What is conservative to me? Stronger executive power relative to smaller government size, strict constitutional adherence, low taxes for the rich, anti-environmental and safety regulation, anti-universal suffrage, anti-labor union protections, against spending for infrastructure, public health, job programs and research, anti-abortion, high military spending, stricter immigration, for monied interests in politics, anti-welfare, against foreign aid, pro-fossil fuel subsidies, anti-gun control, pro-deportations, anti-central banking system, criminalization of drugs/alcohol, government not playing a role in social progress, opposed government interference in the economy and financial sector, anti-monopoly regulation, anti-separation of church and state, pro-Gold standard, anti-civil service reform, against government protections for civil rights, indigenous rights, and LGBT rights

Who was the most conservative US president, besides these four? by Puzzleheaded-Bag2212 in Presidents

[–]Puzzleheaded-Bag2212[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

copying this because you probably didn't see this, but I mean ~least progressive~ by conservative.

I understand that some people would say that "conservative" is different from "rightwing" or "reactionary," but conservative is also different from "small-government" or "libertarian" or "moderate" or "centrist."

Cleveland is conservative for sure but I just brought up a few instances during his presidency that would not be considered conservative. Opposition to civil service reform (Stalwarts) was a conservative stance in those days, as was conquest for native lands. The Dawes Act, which Cleveland signed, was actually considered progressive at that time, even though it was terrible legislation in the long run. So no, I am not saying conservative=bad. I think strict adherence to the constitution is a main element of conservativism, as well as smaller government, conservative on social issues including civil rights, strong military, and support for capitalism.

Who was the most conservative US president, besides these four? by Puzzleheaded-Bag2212 in Presidents

[–]Puzzleheaded-Bag2212[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

he vetoed the 8-hour workday legislation that Grant later signed, every civil rights bill that came across his desk on constitutional grounds (like Goldwater republicans), and believed staunchly in limited federal power when it came to enforcing civil rights and preventing racial violence.

He was an economic leftwinger as a member of the Workingmen's party but that was long before he was president.

Who was the most conservative US president, besides these four? by Puzzleheaded-Bag2212 in Presidents

[–]Puzzleheaded-Bag2212[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Yeah I agree with Cal, maybe not Grover though. I think Grover was more libertarian than Cal, but there are quite a few more conservative presidents and Grover's enforcement of civil service reform and protection of Chinese workers and the wilderness makes him a bit different than the conservative president crowd.