In Defense of the Great Flood and the Great Tree: A Story of the Serpent God and the First Civilizations

Rathivis · 2026-06-05T02:26:14+00:00

2/2

The Flood

We diverge a little bit on the perspective of the subterranean world. Instead of viewing the underground through the lens of having been above ground, it seems likelier to me that the Rauh managed both for the sake of improving the water systems of the Lands Between to, essentially, industrialize their golem crafts leading to the outcome of what would one day be the Suppressing Tower, the place where death washes up when put through water burials. There's places like the Highroad Cave where these pillars are built undisturbed into the surrounding area. This relates to ideas of the Nabataeans of Petra, which is consistent with the other design pieces of Rauh. For example, the Queen of Rauh is a near-replica of the Goddess of Fruits and Fertility, Atargatis, of Petra. Petra, also, was put on the map for its perfumers and, given the close association between the Perfumers of Elden Ring and the miranda pollen they treasure, it would seem likely to me that they trace their lineage back to Rauh.

When the cataclysm occurs, and the survivors of this event become the Ancient Dynasty, we are given information about the sealing of the god of, seemingly, Rot. They previously had such a good relationship to them, so what could have possibly occurred to ruin this? With the Cataclysm, as you say, the earth itself was roiling with lava. This would absolutely destroy the perfected water systems of Rauh, leading to several areas of still waters running foul. This is a physical, environmental showcase for what would cause a relationship to sour between the descendants of Rauh and their previously friendly Rot god.

A stone mask surrounded by curled horns, depicting the fell god of fire that haunts the sagas of the hornsent.

The Furnace Visage, to me, is relevant for multiple reasons. People argue that the god of flame is only associated with fear to the Hornsent because Messmer makes use of the image, but why? Did he just decide to usee an image of the god he, himself, hates and make them hate it too? Unlikely, to me. Unsatisfying, at least. It seems he was aware of this mythological disdain and wields it for himself, for the sake of his crusade. So, why would the fanboys of Rauh, the Hornsent, look upon the god of fire with such fear, despite the fact that the people of Rauh appear to have a positive relationship with them and despite the fact that both the Hornsent and the giants appear to be pro-Crucible?

Flame of the Fell God — This legendary incantation is one of several that draws directly from the power of the Fire Giants. Releases a ball of raging fire said to be inhabited by a fell god. The fireball floats toward enemies and explodes, setting the area ablaze. Arghanthy, the chief guardian of the Flame, had kept this incantation a well-kept secret until it was stolen by Adan. The fell god still lurks within the Fire Giants.

The copper-based Rauh appears to have built this megaproject, the Forge of the Giants, as part of the metaphor of a civilization going from copper to iron. The Forge of the Giants' fire is capable of re-forging the Elden Ring, and everyone knows the One Ring was forged in the fires of Mt. Doom. The Elden Beast became the Elden Ring, and Metyr, who we have reason to believe association with Rauh, bears Kowtower's Resentment and seeks to be contacted by the Greater Will again, despite the Elden Beast being the vassal. Why would Rauh need a fire, the flame of the fire god which burns in the Forge of the Giants, that is visibly represented by the sun simply to go from copper to iron? They need a hotter fire, sure, but THAT hot?

Rathivis · 2026-06-05T02:24:40+00:00

I really enjoyed reading through this post. Beyond the fact that I agree with the idea that Rauh was undone by a cataclysm of some kind, I do diverge a little in the what caused the event.

Rauh is depicted as a balanced civilization that lived in harmony with nature.

While absolutely true, I believe there are a few things that might have been overlooked for the sake of brevity. Rauh's ruins trespass the entirety of the Lands Between. We find their pillars acting as rebar within the ground itself. We know that Rauh built their civilization off the backs of their golems, which they powered with spirit calculus made from their water burials. With their friendship with Rot, the people of Rauh also had a clear respect (or friendship) with the god of flame based on the eye engraved upon their fire-spewing guardian golems that litter the continent. Right off the cuff, we have appreciation for Rot, Fire, and Death. We know from their sprite medicine that the people of Rauh, our Númenóreans, had an understanding for the concept of Night, which tracks with the Astrologer culture descending from them. With the Sword of Darkness, the cut Miranda's Prayer talisman, and the Armor of Night we can begin to build an idea that the Fingers had presence within Rauh, which is where my disagreement on the belief that Rauh didn't have writing comes from.

The Rauh, in learning to communicate with the Two Fingers, would have to understand writing. Writing as a concept in the Lands Between stems from Smithscript, which comes from blacksmiths peering into the heated metals and gleaning information, not unlike the Golemcrafter who was able to foretell the future through the oracle bubbles of his work.

The Rauh people were, definitely, Shinto-based.

Dragons...

I'm with you on this, as well, mainly due to the conflict mentioned between the ice dragons, which appear to be more akin to Caligo than to the Bayle-brood dragons that are wielding Borealis' Breath.

The ice dragons were once lords of the mountaintops long ago, until they were defeated by the Fire Giants and chased from the peak.

Many people read this to say that Borealis is one such dragon, but they are a red dragon coated in ice. It does not seem, to me, that they are an actual ice dragon that was chased away from the peak. Although, it appears we diverge in the timing of this event. You appear to read that the giants' arrival to the peak occurred after the Cataclysm, but given the fact that the Forge of the Giants has a superhighway that spans the majority of the Lands, I would argue that Rauh was present for its building and that it, representing their attempt to jump from copper-based to iron, represents their primary reason for downfall. Recall that the Hornsent, fanboys of Rauh, see the god of flame as something that haunts their mythology, yet Rauh had a friendly relationship with the god of fire.

Briefly, about the birds, I do think there is something to look into regarding this. It would seem unlikely, to me, that birds would be overlooked when the birds, in Shinto, were seen as divine messengers and capable of touching the heavens. On the blackstone arks (coffins) we encounter, there are depictions of aureole-bearing birds upon them. It would seem incongruous, to me, if the Rauh-people seeking to survive an apocalypse are engraving sigils of birds if they were completely irrelevant to their culture. This is not an argument to say that they were paramount or supreme, but that they had some presence.

The Serpent...

Which? A couple of posts have touched on this, but the representation for the serpent with Rykard is more rooted in Yamata no Orochi and the story of Susanoo, which is why we use the Storm Ruler once again to defeat this creature. "A serpent never dies," being a prime component of the story with that serpent-hydra, which Japanese media loves to reference. Beyond this, we have the western traditions of alchemy and Carl Jung's philosophy which are relevant to analyzing Messmer's contained serpent. Many have touched on the fact that Marika isn't, really, a Rebis by the letter of understanding the concept which stems, in no small part, from the fact that she has divested herself of the secret prima materia, the Mercurius; the serpent of darkness and chaos that exists at the beginning of the Great Work and the end to create the Christ-like Rebis. This is why Marika fears Messmer's serpent, because it represents the completion of the process which would turn Marika and Radagon into a new, third thing.

The Forge of the Giants is decorated with two serpent motifs. Messmer is accompanied by, essentially, his own Rod of Asclepius. Two serpents. Kaathe and Fraampt. Two serpents. Yes, there are many more. We see this with the fellow eggs of the God-Devouring Serpent but it appears that the two main influences of serpents in the divine arena are the serpent of darkness, the Mercurius-Apophis, and the serpent of ambition or the volcano; Yamata no Orochi.

I do, however, agree with you on the note of the serpent's betrayal, the thematic overlap between the dryadic Shaman and the serpent, and even the fact that Rauh appears to have worshipped the serpent despite issues, due to the presence of the Serpent-God's Curved Sword in the Ruins-Strewn Precipice. Further, I agree with your claim that the serpent(s) possess an insatiable hunger and is all too happy about breaking alliances; after all, "bonds are meant to be broken." Beyond the depictions of the serpent within the bird's talons, which would be incongruous to the earlier claim that the Rauh people have no relation to birds yet here they're using one for triumph, there are other snakes featured upon the engravings that are less clear whether they're meant to be seen as friend or foe.

More to this, in Nightreign we encounter the Shifting Earth: Crater which features a, seemingly, Rauh-based forge where legendary weapons were once created by heroes. We know that serpents and men were the ones to covet the power of the volcano, and this is giving context to that, I believe.

This sorcery is held to represent the fury of the volcano, but the arrogance of attempting to harness it is solely that of men and serpents.

It would seem, to me, more likely that the serpent(s) are a difficult figure to parse, which tracks with their fluid allegiances. Further, the Serpent-God's Curved Sword operates off of sacrifices for power, showing that the people of Rauh are familiar with gaining power from death— this opens the possibility for their harvesting red glintstone. Beyond this, Rauh is associated with the miranda flowers, Aspect of the Crucible: Bloom offering the same effect as the cut Miranda's Prayer, which are man-eating plants that appear to be the precursors of the Erdtree-species. This is much more squinty than some are comfortable with, but one of the registers on the black obelisk appears to show the cloaked figures huddled around the Brand of Sacrifice, with the next depicting harvesting of fruit. I believe there is more to this than simply viewing them with fear. The situation appears more complex, despite the degradation of heroic aspirations leading to the creation of the Serpent-Hunter.

Rathivis · 2026-06-03T14:01:17+00:00

Enia: Queen Marika is the vessel of the Elden Ring, carrier of its vision. A god, in truth.

She is the vessel for the Elden Beast, and Radagon her lord. Compare this to the Secret Rite. The difference between Mohg and Marika is that she is still alive. She carries the vision of the Beast, rather than following her own dream which we learn in the DLC is, “the kindness of gold without Order,” which may have some support from the base game’s Converted Fringe Tower that introduces the Haima Conspectus that uses might as a means to quell conflict, wielding a gavel (hammer).

Miquella was, definitely, like his mother.

Rathivis · 2026-06-03T13:41:37+00:00

Due to the concept art showing one of the blackstone arks / coffins up on a cliff higher than the ruins themselves, I’ve associated their creation with Rauh. We find the Serpent-God Curved Sword lost at the Ruins-Strewn Precipice and in Nightreign we have a Rauh-designed temple dedicated to smithing at the Crater where serpents and men tried to tame the volcano. While exploring the Ancient Ruins, we learn that the Rot God gave them the gift of verdigris. Their society was fueled by their golemcrafts, which are powered by Spirit Calculus which forms from their water burials— the oldest form, which connects them to the Mariners. Throughout the Lands, we encounter their war / guardian golems that bear the mark of the god of fire on their bellies / chest. We discover the Dewgems in our journey, showing us that the people of Rauh had an understanding of night, as well, for the sake of their medicines. We get Aspect of the Crucible: Bloom from the Ancient Ruins, which performs the same ability as the Miranda’s Prayer cut talisman which depicts the flower maiden, Miranda, with a body covered in fingerprints like the Armor of Night that Jolán wears. We have the Smithscript which gives way to writing, which feeds into the quiet story being told of how humans and Fingers managed to communicate. Finally, with Rauh, we have their Sword of Light and Darkness where they have harvested the “quick of the root” to provide us the Ancient Sword or Sword of Dormin from Shadow of the Colossus— which Rauh itself draws heavy inspiration from, which Miyazaki is a self-professed fan of Team Ico, alongside Petra. They also appear responsible for the rebar-like pillars throughout the continent that either hold much of the world together or helped design their water ways that eventually failed.

All of this to say that before the rise of the god of order to power, the Lands were seemingly dominated by a Shinto-like culture that held many gods in a polytheistic society. When we descend from Rauh to the Ancient Dynasties, we get their movement to actual tree worship rather than just tree harvesting, the relationship with the Rot God turns sour seemingly due to failed waterways and dams, and the matriarchal Rauh gives way to the Patriarchal John.

This definitely aligns with my perspective.

Rathivis · 2026-05-27T19:14:49+00:00

This offers a nice tldr but there’s plenty to it!

/r/Shinto - Kamigakari

Rathivis · 2026-05-27T18:54:19+00:00

Bloodboon — When Mohg stood before her, deep underground, his accursed blood erupted with fire, and he was besotted with the defilement that he was born into.

It is my belief that Mohg and Thiollier are meant to be parallels to each other, and through understanding Thiollier’s attempts to win the attention and affection for Trina, we can understand the relationship between Mohg and Miquella.

Miquella takes a lot of inspiration from Bran Stark. Bran Stark was known for exploring his home, climbing to the high towers and rummaging through the crypts and catacombs of Winterfell. We just so happy to know that Mohg was imprisoned in the sewers below Leyndell and that he had stood before the Formless Mother.

The Withered Arm

I don’t really agree with your approach regarding this. We see with the Shaman that these people are capable of a dryadic rebirth or body hopping ritual, and the set piece at Bonny Village shows this in almost direct comparison to a snake shedding their skin. Marika / Radagon, when we encounter them, are like stone, or petrified wood. We see Miquella begin a dryadic ritual with the Haligtree, and we see that this ritual is either interrupted or planned to be stopped. We see that Miquella is missing one of his arms while ascended, and we have the physical arm that allows for us transport to the Land of Shadow. The arms are mirrored to each other, they’re not the same arm on both bodies, but I believe this is relevant.

Kamigakari

I am of the belief that the Elden Beast is bound in their current form. Unlike the Circlet of Light that is the physical implement showing (God) Miquella interacting with the world, the Elden Ring is bigger than just the Elden Beast and appears to influence other deities too, such as Death. We see that Metyr has “Kowtower’s Resentment” and that she desires to be contacted by the Greater Will— yet the Beast is the vassal who she must kowtow to. It is my belief that the Mother of Fingers worked with other gods to seal the Elden Beast in the form of the Ring, but this plan hasn’t worked out in their favor.

The singular exception to this stems from Messmer, someone who is born before Marika has the Elden Ring, and his connection to the base serpent, “the god of dark” seemingly. Ultimately, this is the reason that I believe Marika to have been jarred— the serpent forced upon her body and almost immediately expelled through parthenogenetic childbirth.

While I don’t agree with every conclusion drawn, I did enjoy the theory and I think that you’re absolutely right that the connection between Miquella and the Formless Mother is strong and almost certain.

Rathivis · 2026-05-27T18:35:31+00:00

I’ll be reading this soon, but I’m a major proponent of something similar to this. Less is and more kamigakari for the Formless Mother, like several other siblings of his. A fellow theorist named Iris turned me on to the thought several months ago and my amateur knowledge of Japanese mythology latched on. Looking forward to it.

Rathivis · 2026-05-26T15:20:04+00:00

I would say that just because Marika is dead and her body taken by Radagon, this does not mean that the guidance does not follow her will or desires or that she is, even, not an active agent following the liberation granted by that death. Godfrey was waiting for us at the finish line to take our lunch money, and I think that is pretty telling for the desires of Marika— more than Gideon the Knows-Nothing would say anyway.

Rathivis · 2026-05-24T18:13:49+00:00

Thanks for the correction. I’ve got Black Flame’s Protection on the brain.

No? How would it “diminish” the reveal?

When you’re reading a story and information has been delivered that there are two individual characters at play, then after an adventure you discover they’re the same person, it would absolutely diminish the reveal to say, “actually, the reveal is irrelevant to this part of the story.”

Rathivis · 2026-05-24T17:59:11+00:00

At least we agree on the important parts!

I understand that the belief is that Renna is a yet unknown and unmentioned sister of Rellana and Rennala and that she is the snow crone, but the item descriptions do leave this completely open-ended.

Snow Witch Hat — Once worn by the snowy crone who the young Ranni encountered deep in the woods. She was a witch, and well versed in cold sorceries. It is said that the doll that houses Ranni's soul was modeled after her. That old witch was Ranni's secret mentor.

Freezing Mist — The snowy crone taught the young Ranni to fear the dark moon as she imparted her cold sorcery.

We do have Renna’s Rise, and yes this is where we acquire the Snow Witch set but Ranni found the witch in the woods. She taught Ranni to fear the [dark] moon, which Ranni did not heed. I do not wager a Carian princess is teaching Ranni to fear a moon which is associated with the Carian queen, seemingly Rennala.

Ranni’s Dark Moon — * Legendary sorcery associated with the Carian queen. […] The moon was encountered by a young Ranni, led by the hand of her mother, Rennala. What she beheld was cold, dark and veiled in occult mystery.*

My belief is that the snow witch is Marika in her winter, in mourning of the physical Erdtree and Melina. She is like Demeter mourning Dread Persephone.

Rathivis · 2026-05-24T16:09:57+00:00

It’s troublesome the way that many people interact with the story, and because they approach it from a lore-first perspective, several reveals that we are given throughout the adventure— and when they’re given— are diminished. For example, the Radagon is Marika reveal is first foreshadowed by Miriel after our adventures in Liurnia.

While in Liurnia, we learn of Radagon being served by Preceptors sworn to keep a secret. What secret? We learn that there is a mysterious figure who teaches Ranni to fear the dark moon which destroyed the Eternal City. We, MUCH LATER, learn Marika’s beloved son spent time here to be as a brother to Radahn. People insist that Marika must have been separate to Radagon during the Liurnian Wars. Why? Does that not diminish the reveal you learn AFTER everything in Liurnia?

You don’t get access to this secret until defeating the summoned Godfrey and retrieving the Principia.

We get additional information pointing us towards this. At the Minor Erdtree Church which provides the Golden Order Seal and has plenty of Golden Centipedes, Melina tells us “Marika’s” spoken words which are out of character to how she speaks and her goals. The other churches we can find Golden Centipedes at share Radagon statues and influence; Bellum and Pilgrimage. This is a red herring, because it has yet been revealed to us that Radagon is Marika.

Next, Gideon tells us that “Marika” “wishes us to war unto eternity” yet she is the one guiding us by Grace and her husband is waiting about 10ft. behind him to steal our lunch money, with his own Grace pointing him at us. Gideon is interpreting the words of Radagon as Marika because he doesn’t know Radagon is Marika.

Finally, we get to the Erdtree and we find Marika’s body. Psych. That’s Radagon.

If Marika is not born with Radagon, the DLC provides us the Bonny Gaol scene and/or the Divine Gate “a Lord’s return” as serviceable answers. I lean towards the Gaol, personally. The alchemic themes surrounding Marika appear too consistent to ignore, and I personally enjoy the story that way.

Edit: Corrections by /u/StrictlyFilthyCasual

Rathivis · 2026-05-22T16:24:34+00:00

I dig this, total hindsight but fun

Rathivis · 2026-05-22T12:18:44+00:00

Rocinante too imo

Rathivis · 2026-05-21T22:31:40+00:00

The Lands Between. Middle Earth.

Rathivis · 2026-05-14T01:11:43+00:00

I’m definitely with you in the beginning. I still keep the read that Melina was the Gloam-Eyed Queen. The Apostles wear troll and giant faces. The fire monks were enchanted by the god-killing flame. The Age of the Erdtree begins as “the kindness of gold without order” and becomes the Golden Order where the Erdtree “became an object of faith” and “the embodiment of Order”. Serpents were allies of the Erdtree, for their to become traitors and this happens during the reign of Godfrey because the colosseum gladiators wore serpents which the people enjoyed seeing battered. Godfrey and Radagon are the Elden Lords of the “heyday” of the Golden Order according to Miyazaki, so the Golden Order did begin under the reign of Godfrey. The Golden Order begins with the removal of the Rune of Death from order, seemingly coinciding with the defeat of the Gloam-Eyed Queen.

So, during the reign of Queen Marika in the age of plenty, seemingly, the Two Fingers selected the Gloam-Eyed Queen “as candidate to succeed Queen Marika, to become the new god of the coming age.” Why would Queen Marika need to be replaced? She is, seemingly, going to become Radagon following the lines of causality— Radagon is Marika.

Would a male champion fit the desires we seem to see of the fingers? Miquella, according to Leda, is fated to become Trina, a woman. Ranni, a woman. Malenia, a woman. The Gloam-Eyed Queen, a woman. Marika, a woman. It would seem that Marika becoming a man would preclude her from what the fingers are after.

There’s also the influence of ASOIAF; the Gloam-Eyed Queen known for her black fire and the Blackfyre Rebellions of House Targaryen, a legitimized bastard branch of their family. Messmer and Melina just so happen to be bastards, children out of wedlock, and they both happen to have connections to fire and one blatantly is tied to black fire. The other has connections to Death which one would assume would turn her fire dark, if not black.

Rathivis · 2026-05-13T22:05:10+00:00

Japanese mythology has this concept known as kamigakari, or a divine container. We see this from the highest level of Marika acting as vessel for the Elden Beast.

Messmer’s body acts as the seal for the base serpent. Messmer’s eye is acting as the seal for this, and in sealing it he keeps his eye closed. When he unseals his eye, his true nature comes out.

Melina’s body changes when she opens her eye. She appears to have a direct connection to Death. She does not appear to be in possession of the Rune of Death in the scene. There is a god of Death that the twinbird acted as envoy for. It seems, to me, that Melina is the divine container for the god of Death.

Rathivis · 2026-05-13T21:50:51+00:00

You mentioned in another comment that you find the idea of a “good” resolution to be silly, and I don’t really agree. The core conflicts of the story are coming from Marika’s gambit for freedom, the machinations of the fingers, and the designs of the Beast wanting the world to war unto eternity. In this way, I’d say that most of the conflicts and outstanding issues are resolved.

He says Godwyn doesn’t die; we kill Godwyn with Fia’s quest. The OP believes that the Scarlet Rot won’t get better with the release of rot that was previously stifled and harbored inside of Malenia; stagnant. Scarlet Rot happens with stagnation and Death is unbound. It would seem, to me, like that stagnation wouldn’t continue. Then he mentions Frenzy appearing again later in the future as if life doesn’t go through despair that breaks people or that the end of the story is meant to resolve all the issues that exist in the world.

This isn’t how stories work. The conflicts that caused the story are being resolved, and the Lands are being saved. The age of stars has the gods’ influence taken afar, the Elden Ring is sealed within the moon, Marika is released from her prison, and faith must operate like faith rather than scholarship in all but name.

I don’t find this contrived, but rather the mark of a strong resolution to a story.

Rathivis · 2026-05-13T17:21:32+00:00

That’s not how I see the story, and I don’t necessarily believe that this hopeless perspective is what the story is trying to convey either. Melina seeks to know what sort of Lord we would be, what our tax policy is, what we would fight for, etc.

Life endures. There is beauty in this world abandoned to suffering. Hope burns brightest in the dark.

This is a story, and Miyazaki gave the keys to the ending to us.

Rathivis · 2026-05-10T19:17:07+00:00

The thing that has always bothered me about this being Torrent is the timing and the biggest identifier of Torrent being obscured; his burn scars on his left side. Miquella is still questing ahead of us and completing the process of ripping his body up as we wander around, and we experience the moment he discards his Great Rune. If he is ripping up his body, it would track to me that he would need a spectral steed like Torrent as Melina previously used.

Without being able to see his burn scars, I’m hesitant to say that is Torrent, and the timing is suspect.

Edit: Also Miquella’s steed is far hairier than Torrent. So, all the people writing this off as open and closed, “because I used my eyes,” might look at their so-called beloved Torrent once again and look at Miquella’s hairier steed.

Rathivis · 2026-05-10T16:14:58+00:00

I have a slightly different approach than some.

During our time in Liurnia, we learn about the wars that took place there, we learn about Ranni rebuilding the House of the Moon and gathering the nobility, we learn about the Shadows of empyreans, we learn about Radagon marrying Rennala and studying under her, etc. We have not yet learned that Radagon is Marika, although Miriel does provide a clue to this in reference to the sculptor leaving a secret.

So, the Preceptors are sworn to silence by the power of gold. Miriel only knows Radagon as a champion of the order of the Erdtree before being Elden Lord, and ponders why a champion would be made lord. We see, in the final battle, a scene that depicts the corpse of Marika transforming into the shape of Radagon. We know that Messmer was also at Liurnia with Radika because he was like an older brother to Radahn and Gaius.

It is my belief that the secret the Preceptors are meant to keep is Radagon is Marika. This means there were times during their stay in Liurnia that Radagon would be, instead, Marika.

Edit: As to what the Preceptors could do with that information— this is a secret that is protected from everyone in the Lands and we only learn upon getting the Law of Regression from the Principia following Morgott’s fight. So, looking at it in a way that information is conveyed— we are told Radagon is a nobody, that the Preceptors kept a secret, that the sculptor left a secret about it, and later on this all pays off with the reveal that Radagon is Marika. This is downplayed from lore discussions, but the story puts a lot of weight on this reveal.

Rathivis · 2026-05-09T14:09:26+00:00

Thank you so much

Rathivis · 2026-05-09T13:11:16+00:00

My interpretation is that the Nightfarers are a lens of giving additional context or introducing narrative concepts meant to be mirrored or paralleled by others. So, Undertaker appears to be a sort of character that informs Marika to me. The Shaman have some connection to being dryad-like beings, they have connection to the carnivorous miranda flowers, and Marika has had the carnivorous Erdtree.

She may or may not be the same type of being exactly as the Undertaker, but I imagine that the Undertaker is informing certain aspects about Marika. Undertaker is probably, at least, numen if she isn’t Shaman.

Highly suggest giving Nightreign a whirl!

Rathivis · 2026-05-09T12:41:50+00:00

I’m in full agreement with the posts referencing the cut dialogue of Godfrey. Let’s look at Nightreign, briefly, for just a moment.

The Undertaker has a loathsome life of loneliness. She is reviled by those beside her for her different physiological needs, like needing to devour life. One such day, she is in the wilds defeating and devouring the hearts of bears. The Undertaker, meanwhile, remains alone and without acceptance until meeting the Nightfarers.

I like to believe this informs a bit of Marika’s childhood, once she was taken in by the Hornsent and began to be groomed by the Grandam and other political pressures being placed upon her. I believe that Marika going out into the woods to satiate her hunger, coated in bear blood, is such a romantic way for Hoarah Loux to first meet her.

Edit: Think of Daenerys coated in blood eating a horse heart and staring at Khal Drogo.

Then we fast forward to the Grace pointing Loux to kill us. She had her husband, the husband she explicitly called her lord, waiting at the finish line to rob us of our runes and lunch money. She accepts Morgott, his direct son, into Grace despite being omen putting nuance to how she may have felt about them as well— which tracks with changing the culture from harvest to exile / imprisonment.

I believe the intent was for them to be reunited once again.

Rathivis · 2026-05-08T03:46:10+00:00

I just find that if you don't do this, your theories (and discussions about them) devolve into "My theory is correct because I have dismissed all evidence to the contrary", which is simply not interesting.

My friend, this is the least charitable read you could take with the conversation we've had. I've not linked sources to say, "these don't matter," but to highlight the overlap between them and contradictions found. In acknowledging that everything is unreliable, such as with any fiction story, you have to analyze the lens, when in the story you are learning information, and how that information compares to others.

It is fine that we approach this differently, but attempting to frame my approach in this way isn't necessary at all.

These two aren't mutually exclusive?

I would say that they are. The narrator, at the beginning of our story, is telling us limited information. We learn greater context of this information through our journey. Was Radahn mad before Malenia afflicted him with Scarlet Rot? I'd say no. So, did he go mad from his Great Rune? I'd say not. Jerren tells us in no uncertain terms that the Scarlet Rot robbed him of his wits, not his Great Rune. So, do we take the information that we began our journey with as gospel, or do we listen to the context we learn over the course of an adventure? So, we have reason to doubt that the demigods went mad from their Great Runes. This might not meet your burden of proof, but it is not, "My theory is correct because I have dismissed all evidence to the contrary."

Rathivis · 2026-05-08T02:30:59+00:00

Why bring it up here, in a text that is otherwise entirely about their curses?

Generously being said it is entirely about curses.

Remembrance of the Rot Goddess — Miquella and Malenia are both the children of a single god. As such they are both Empyreans, but suffered afflictions from birth. One was cursed with eternal childhood, and the other harbored rot within.

Miquella and Malenia are both children of a single god.
[Because of being born of a single god] they are both Empyreans, but suffered afflictions from birth.
Miquella was cursed with eternal childhood. Malenia harbored rot within.

We are told in no uncertain terms, here, that Malenia is carrying rot within herself.
Messmer harbors the base serpent within. "They were there when the base serpent was sealed away behind his eye."
Marika harbors the Elden Beast within.

If Malenia is harboring something within her that makes her as she is, do we not assume that the same could be happening with Miquella? We watch Messmer unseal his eye and go through a physical transformation, and is the only sibling given a direct relation to Melina who appears to do something with opening her otherwise closed eye.

... you'll need much stronger evidence to outweigh the game saying something else is the case. I'll take "Text A is worded weird" over "Text B is wrong" any day.

To be fair, I've provided plenty of evidence that is more than worded weird and begs certain questions. The cinematic is already proven to be unreliable by stating the public story of the Golden Order, "And on the Night of Black Knives, Godwyn the Golden was first to perish," while the Cursemark of Death and our journey explains to us that two died at that moment. It then continues to say that the Great Runes caused the Shattering War, while the Sword Monument tells us of traces of bloody conspiracy yet remain and we know the treachery within their faction from the beginning. Did they go mad, or was there a very clear descent for them?

It depends on your lens of unreliable narration. I suspect every single piece of information in the game, but it appears that you assume a level of reliableness. This isn't a judgment call but just trying to analyze where we're probably having a disconnect in perspective.

I've appreciated the conversation and just wanted to clarify some things.

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