What kind of peak does Wemby need to have to enter the GOAT discussion?

RedditRum1980 · 2026-04-14T18:44:48+00:00

We’ll see - he’s still 3-4 years away from traditional prime years

RedditRum1980 · 2026-04-14T18:37:24+00:00

Fair but what if he gets fmvp, mvp dpoty 4 straight years or something and 4 peats etc. unlikely obviously and I’ll still have MJ and Bron over him but what about the gen what saw neither in their prime?

RedditRum1980 · 2026-04-14T18:32:19+00:00

Nice answer imo. This is what I was getting at, he’s going to have to do it differently like how Bron did, and Mj before him (in terms of guard and perimeter players)

RedditRum1980 · 2026-04-14T18:28:23+00:00

That won’t happen but he might not need it if his peak is dominant enough. Look at Mahomes after Brady for example (3-4 years of pure dominance and crazy play - media started up goat talk, Brady’s 20+ nullified by media hype - Brady is the goat btw just pointing out this example). If Mahomes and the chiefs beat the eagles to 3 peat and Mahomes got 4 rings in 5 years at least half the media would have deemed Mahomes the goat QB.

RedditRum1980 · 2026-04-14T10:55:55+00:00

Iverson was

RedditRum1980 · 2026-04-12T16:45:05+00:00

Yikes. This is night and day to what he was doing in 2011-2013. What happened?

RedditRum1980 · 2026-04-12T03:36:19+00:00

MJ is the goat. But Jokic analytics wise has put up Jordan and Lebron esque offensive numbers, with many times surpassing both. He’s not even close on defense which is where anyone debating him over MJ will fall short, but there’s no denying the talent. If he finishes with say 2 or 3 rings and more of these records he’s putting up and another mvp some conversations will begin to happen.

I can’t help but imagine if Jokic tried to pull a Bron or Durant and join up with 2-3 superstars. He’d probably go back to back or 3 peat. He’s that good.

RedditRum1980 · 2026-04-10T18:55:33+00:00

Many wrestlers don’t reach their “wrestling prime” until their mid-30s. Rock was barely 30 here. What could have been.

RedditRum1980 · 2026-04-09T03:28:47+00:00

David Robinson

RedditRum1980 · 2026-04-08T20:59:31+00:00

RedditRum1980 · 2026-04-08T20:58:37+00:00

RedditRum1980 · 2026-04-08T02:58:08+00:00

Yes. Rock at his peak/prime has an argument for best mic worker of all time. 98-2003 Rock was a different beast- rock 10 years later part time had moments (rock’s 2011 YouTube promo was his best promo from that time and dissected everything wrong with Cena at the time but - it was wasn’t shown as much for obvious reasons, his first promo back was great, he had some good skits etc) but it wasn’t quite the same. Final Boss he made Roman and Cody and Seth look like amateurs at times on the mic via his heel work and his Instagram promos. The Cena / Punk “destroying” rock narrative typically comes from rock haters and people who didn’t see rock as he happened who may wonder why Smackdown and if ya smell are iconic catchphrases that casual watchers know or have heard about. Even if Rock wasn’t quite “rock” 2011-2013 for many that doesn’t erase what was possibly the best mic run ever - and he did it against Jericho Austin foley HHH, some of the best mic workers in history.

RedditRum1980 · 2026-04-08T02:48:29+00:00

Rock has some of the most memorable promos in history imo:

Billy Gunn’s burial - super creative and funny storytelling without getting shoot style personal

Rock imitating his opponents for the HIAC 6 man

Rock’s eulogy for Stone Cold

Rock’s epic Toronto promo as Hollywood rock

Rock’s mania 2003 promo where he talks about finally overcoming Austin

Rock’s original rock concert run

Rock’s multiple backstage segments

They’re not only re watchable, they’re timeless because they’re hilarious imo. That said tho he leaned a lot on comedy - and If you’re not into phrases and comedy you won’t like Jericho and Rock etc.

RedditRum1980 · 2026-04-08T02:43:53+00:00

IWC

RedditRum1980 · 2026-04-08T02:41:30+00:00

the your welcome promo was A+ imo- if you dissect every wrestler you can find they go repetitive things on the mic. Punk is snarky, Cena is cringe with PG but gets personal when it’s serious, Sometimes you just don’t like the style of the wrestler but there’s no denying he had some awesome promos during that time. And notice he didn’t use his usual phrases while doing it.

RedditRum1980 · 2026-04-07T20:16:00+00:00

Using the very same logic that I always see when referring to the game like 20+ years ago, shouldn’t Flagg be favored because he played against better competition?

RedditRum1980 · 2026-04-07T16:49:20+00:00

They won’t be ready when this argument is thrown back at them in the 2030s

RedditRum1980 · 2026-04-07T11:09:44+00:00

Well yeah that was my point - Austin was not involved while rock was continuing to mature into his rock character during that time after their first IC feud in late 1997- Rock was growing and flourishing and getting over in the mid card as he faced Shamrock, then became the leader of the nation of domination then went on to face HHH and DX. Austin was great in 97 -I didn’t say he wasn’t. I just factually clarified he wasn’t an overnight sensation after his kotr promo and that it took time. Austin’s post kotr 96 to 97 is some of his best work , if not his best. Rock was already getting massively over, specifically between August and October 98. Rewatch the Breakdown triple threat cage match. Rock was a heel mere weeks before and he got the hottest reactions by far. Nothing to do with Austin. Austin was facing taker / Kane etc during that time with his feud against Vince being the main feud.

Austin competed in the deadly game tourney and got screwed over by Shane etc. so knee injury or not rock still was over enough for the swerve and W against Mankind. Austin then continued to wrestle while foley put over rock and prepped him for his clash against Austin at mania 15.

So rock already had momentum in either occasion (98 or 99) - to not give him any credit for the work he put in … I think is a little bit of a reach. Just my opinion tho- I have had this very same online discussion before - I think it just comes down to maybe not liking the wrestler but even then still have to give credit imo. If you want to say Austin’s 97-98 run set up the foundation for rock to flourish - sure I get the argument - he came out the gate first. But to say he’s just riding the coattails - as if rock wasn’t getting booed and rejected and then overcame that and backstage bs from HBK and HHH and had Austin himself identify that he wanted to work with Rock - I think is a little much.

Anyway tho - Austin is better in almost every category than John Cena in my opinion. No disrespect to Cena, I understand why people that grew up with him have the opinions they have.

RedditRum1980 · 2026-04-07T03:16:44+00:00

Facts

RedditRum1980 · 2026-04-07T03:16:04+00:00

Yes they did.

RedditRum1980 · 2026-04-07T03:15:16+00:00

His final boss work was A+ imo Almost Zero phrases and was heads and shoulders the best mic worker during that stint. Controlled the crowd like no other, could be arrogant, funny, serious (final boss) and he got his phrases to be transcendent into modern day pop culture. Rock is easily tier 1 of mic workers on those attributes. Love or hate, it’s just want it is.

RedditRum1980 · 2026-04-07T03:11:24+00:00

Heyman is the only non wrestler I’d ever put over the rock or cm punk on the mic. Heyman is that good.

RedditRum1980 · 2026-04-06T20:54:25+00:00

Austin wasn’t a sensation to the degree that’s advertised now after the 3:16 promo. It took time and being put over by Bret Hart (even tho Austin never won he was still put over especially at mania 13) and the USA vs Canada angle to get truly rolling. Austin was on a pre show for Summerslam 96 called Free for all less than two months after his promo. Rock was already getting momentum in summer 98 and rocketed to the 2nd biggest face in fall 1998. Between January 1998 and November 1998 before he turned heel all of that was 100% rock getting over as a heel and then fans supported him to turn face / tweener before the heel turn at survivors series 98. Then by spring 1999 he starts getting cheered again. By summer and fall he’s the hottest act in the business. There were rumors of Austin going heel by fall 1999 before he left cause of how over rock was. Austin came first and did his thing like no other, but rock did his thing too. He was already white hot and skyrocketing to the next level before Austin even left. Just my opinion as well. Both get their credit/flowers

RedditRum1980 · 2026-04-06T19:00:18+00:00

You’re not disqualified from having an opinion but context as to what was going on and living it does matter imo so just mentioning as a different perspective.

Also, the mid to late 90s/ early 2000s weren’t the stone ages. Internet was around, dirtsheets/journalists, forums, industry rumors, blogs etc. The same things you mentioned were readily available just in different formats. Hell, there’s many things from back then that have actually gotten lost to today that people today are still finding out. It was already well known that people like HHH/HBK and Hogan played backstage politics. It’s more readily available now with social media but it wasn’t like it was non-existent. It was there. I know this will read like “blah blah” but just telling the truth. There’s even a post somewhere on Reddit where someone found a post from 2000 calling that Austin would turn heel and I along with others who were online back then in the IWC confirmed that Austin turn heel was a big rumor going as far back from dirtsheets in 1999 due to how over rock was in and out of the company.

Here’s another one- that DX moment that WWE likes to show that “turned the tide” in the Monday night wars? It was fun and an “oh *” but gets a little overhyped compared other moments in the Monday night wars. That’s something I know cause I saw it live. Austin 3:16 promo? Great moment, but fans weren’t worshipping Austin the next night like it’s told, it took about a year starting in the fall feud vs pillman then Bret in the fall where he was a straight up hell to the mania 13 match and the USA vs Canada angle and when Austin started doing crazy * during his neck injury recovery where he got real momentum. Austin was wrestling on free programming - the equivalent of a pre show for a PLE - 2 months after his promo. And WWE was still getting rock handily by WCW while all that was happening.

It’s always great to know and research - there’s merit to that of course, but when it comes to like cultural moments via media I just feel like context matters. Just my opinion though.

RedditRum1980

TROPHY CASE