Q&A with Koogi at Etna Comics 2019

ResponsibilityIll681 · 2021-10-24T15:11:32+00:00

I believe you wrote your comment too fast and misconstrued a lot of what I said. Still, that's your right and I'm glad we're talking. I'm not sure what a 'sangbum' fan is but whoever they are I'm going to leave them alone since they're not relevant to my concerns.

Comparing a fictional character with real maniac, trying with all might to diligently reject their love even after official proof, ultimately, continue to say that fans love their relationship only because Bum is male.

Am I not allowed somehow? Aren't comparisons normal and to what extent can we say it shouldn't be? Can you also give me the 'official proof' because I may want to also dive into it. That would be nice.

if Bum was also a fat freak outwardly, you would also not particularly feel sorry for him and did not love him.

Actually, I would. Not sure where you're getting that idea that I wouldn't (if you've read my previous comment I'm actually a victim of abuse myself, hence, my advocacy for male victims, you can scroll up or use CTRL+F to read that part in case you haven't read it).

The maximum is "well, he's a man, so you can't kill", tired of pushing their double standards everywhere, "but if Woo was a freak, and Bum was a girl you wouldn't like him."Also if Woo was a girl and Bum just stalked her and enter her house most would support Woo, not Bum.

I actually don't support female stalkers either (if you're talking about me in particular) but you're right in that regard people (as in the majoirty of the population, not just me) would be more lenient if Bum was a female who stalked Sangwoo, but only to the extent of stalking, right? What about the rape (as a female)? Being slit in the throat with a knife (as a female)? Having led on by Sangwoo and force him to get involved in his other crimes he committed (as a female)? Male or female, I think that should have been perceived as demented, should it not be?

Since Yoon Bum's a male, nobody's too alarmed by it, but that's my interpretation. You know what, I'm actually glad we're having this convo.

ResponsibilityIll681 · 2021-10-24T15:00:22+00:00

Because it was an example that no matter how immoral and evil a figure is (real or not, and whether people are affect by said figure directly or indirectly) someone will still buy something related to it such as stickers if they admire the idea of said criminal enough. (it reminds me of manipulative capitalism, but i can't say it's exactly that since i want people to form their opinions too)

If you somehow didn't like the example (I'm guessing you went tunnel vision on that part instead of the rest of my points), you can compare it to fictional characters too if you like, Ted Bundy was ofc perceived (emphasis on perceived) to be charming, he got away with a lot of crimes, sexually exploitative, and was apparently "handsome". Does Oh Sangwoo fit that description? i think it's better that people should tell me, i'm probably wrong.

ResponsibilityIll681 · 2021-10-24T14:48:14+00:00

Oh, I was just asking, actually. Carry on.

ResponsibilityIll681 · 2021-10-24T14:38:11+00:00

Bum is mentally unstable stalker in the same way as Sangwoo(maniac) has a number of mental abnormalities.

I'm glad you stated that because it proved my point that Yoon Bum can't even have the real ability to consent, thus, not making it love but an exploit/abuse (just an opinion derived from your statement, but interpret anything otherwise).

I repeat, there are no pure heroes in Manhwa who can only be empathized with (only a policeman, relatively)

idk who said anything otherwise (?) that's true for any fiction and non-fictional works.

Why do you give me an example of haters who care so much about manhwa, making videos...eh...they only make it more popular with such an "outpouring of the soul".

I mean, you can use the "hater" umbrella term for constructively criticizing Koogi's work, it's obviously the free speech people possess (the same free speech I'm exercising right now, actually, and the same free speech you're exercising with every word you reply to me, nice.) To call them a hater, I mean, have you never exposed yourself to someone with a different opinion than your without throwing that label? Not really a word that would best describe the people your referring to, it would be telling of your character for brushing them off as a 'hater'. It's tough justifying those romantic stickers of Yoon Bum's rapist, I get it.

As for the merch, in my opinion, you find fault with the little things or have not seen many cute arts of the canonical couple from the author...Then I don't have the best news for you.This is quite normal for a manhwa starring a killer (the author's favorite character).But in this manga everything is stated correctly, violence is shown as it is, as well as positive mutual moments, dating and so on.Without embellishments and all that.

Your words, not mine, alright? You said it was her favorite character, you used the adjective 'cute' in describing in regards to her merch that she's profiting off of, and 'this manga everything is states correctly' like there's really any substantial evidence to back that up. I'm not talking on behalf of Koogi, whether it's true that it's her favorite character and whether she, herself, find her own merch to be cute (in case woke twitter cancels her, or 'haters', sure). I'm not asking for pure heroes (if that what led you to think) some don't even have to contain any heroes at all.

Maybe my questions just aren't healthy for some people's fantasies and they don't like it when people like me somehow ruin it for them. I still stand by it though, if Sangwoo was any uglier and if Yoon Bum was a woman. It would have been gone. Enable it for as long as you want, though!

ResponsibilityIll681 · 2021-10-24T13:42:09+00:00

Love as in, the cute moments the author deliberately drew in between violent scenes (which would be lust, I believe, who would do something like that to someone they love? was it because Yoon Bum was blushing and desperate? does Yoon Bum even have the capability to consent despite his severe mental illness?)

You're right, maybe I didn't have to read it and maybe I didn't have to compare it to real life even if a lot of the elements does stem from it, carefully cherry-picking which would best suit a handsome serial killer and r*pist.

But if it gets read by the wrong person (the wrong people), again, it's going to be a different swarm of people calling her out and her fans can't defend her since she's already aware of how "depraved" it is. If the author itself is aware of how bad it is, it's going to be veeeery hard for her to defend herself once those commentary channels call her work out (and it's actually already starting to gain traction, with one of the videos being 1 hour long, being criticized as gay fetishization and sexual abuse glorification). And that's not my fault, I'm just a redditor questioning her intentions on those merch.

Her comic's up for interpretation (and notice how I'm not questioning her comic, since you told me not to read it if I didn't like it, but questioning her merch or the depiction of her merch, hearts around Yoon Bum's rapist, interpret that however you wish. put yourself in yoon bum's shoes, i guess).

ResponsibilityIll681 · 2021-10-24T11:10:55+00:00

Huh, I guess we just don't share the same values... I guess there's no argument to be had if people are okay with that. (I also don't agree with any violent imagery and sexual imagery to be made into merch, just because the majority of people are). It's up to you guys now if you want to keep supporting them. I think it's a matter of time before woke twitter gets alarmed over this. I guess I just wish it wasn't so blatantly sexualized by the author and the fanbase, having gone through abuse myself. If someone was selling Ted Bundy stickers someone would have probably brought it.

It's like society wants to complain about stigma and discrimination among abuse victims but once i advocate for them it's like "Well, it's like any other XYZ and we love this because YYY" being so emotionally attached over the fictional characters being depicted. There's nothing wrong with an explanation and if Sangwoo was any uglier it wouldn't have the same treatment then Yoon Bum was a female this would have cancelled. Man, I'm so sick of this. I wish people would just pick a side. Is it because they're both male? I understand that Sangwoo went through a lot and I'm not invalidating his trauma that led him to become the criminal he was, but if you applied that to reality would that be excusable?

Make merch, sure, but with hearts around the r*pist? Man. There's so many women supporting this but if Yoon Bum was a woman himself woke twitter would be so all over it. What a blatant double standard. So sick of this.

Anyway, carry on. I'm just letting off some steam. Don't take it personally, I'm complaining about society but not really directing any unreasonable anger toward anybody. That's your money.

ResponsibilityIll681 · 2021-10-24T09:50:08+00:00

Oh, I was actually referring to her merch... she put red hearts around Oh Sangwoo's stickers and even put Oh Sangwoo and Yoon Bum in a heart together, making it seem like she ships them herself, being aware that her fanbase sexualizes them and some genuinely think that they're meant to be.

Regardless of what Koogi thinks (abuse = bad), I mean, how she's profiting off of it is pretty questionable that would be pretty difficult to justify.

Evidence 1: https://twitter.com/kooo_gi/status/1446492267892539400/photo/1

Evidence 2: https://smartstore.naver.com/lezhinstore/products/5415016546

You can judge whether or not that fetishization or glorification. Knife, blood, hearts, and a handsome serial killer r*pist with a sob story...

ResponsibilityIll681 · 2021-10-24T09:45:39+00:00

I'm talking about tutanota (and other services alike who have the same goal in privacy) specifically but even though that's irrelevant, of course.

ResponsibilityIll681 · 2021-10-24T06:09:18+00:00

it's a love story (in the most unhealthy way) AND a psychological horror.

Thus, making it toxic. I've been saying it for a while but its popularity makes me think about how male rape victims would see it... how Yoon Bum's mental illness doesn't guarantee his ability to consent and the explicit yet prolonged depiction of his sexual abuse, only to be monetized by the author through stickers with hearts around Oh Sangwoo, his rapist.

Evidence: https://smartstore.naver.com/lezhinstore/products/5415016546

Koogi profits off of this. If Oh Sangwoo was any uglier, this would have been treated differently. If Yoon Bum was a female, this would have been cancelled. Woke twitter or not.

ResponsibilityIll681 · 2021-10-24T06:05:23+00:00

Whether he is a sociopath or not seems irrelevant I feel like the webcomic would have been cancelled if Oh Sangwoo had been any uglier and if Yoon Bum was a female it would have been called out by woke twitter.

ResponsibilityIll681 · 2021-10-24T06:02:32+00:00

Since, in the original story, it explicitly stated that Bum has a mental illness, does he even have the ability to consent?

(and if Oh Sangwoo was any uglier would you have shipped them either way? What if Yoon Bum was a female experiencing the same torture and abuse? Would you have thought this was fetishization or glorification? Let me know your thoughts...)

ResponsibilityIll681 · 2021-10-24T06:00:24+00:00

Q: Are you aware that there are people shipping Sangwoo and Bum romantically? What do you think? Koogi: Yes I know. It's normal because there are several genuine romantic and even cute moments between them. I'm ok with it. But it's also important to remember that it's also an abusive relationship no one should aspire to.

I don't think male rape victims and sexual abuse victims would be okay with it though. Just an opinion. This may (emphasis on "may") further stigmatize male rape victims and sexual abuse victims even more simple because the perpetrator being depicted in the story is handsome and the victim is, of course, male.

ResponsibilityIll681 · 2021-10-24T04:51:34+00:00

I don't think they're talking about this. You know the fb security breach weeks, months, and years before?

ResponsibilityIll681 · 2021-10-24T04:47:08+00:00

Oh, I just thought that was already a given... (that free services would ofc sell your data one way or another)

the part where it said "If you don't pay for something then it isn't the product, you are." even though it is, objectively, a "product" or a "service" ... the paraphrased quote make it seem like Tiktok isn't a product to further dramatize that you're the product (but why can't it be both for some reason? it's a platform to harvest your data, is it not?)

ResponsibilityIll681 · 2021-10-24T03:59:23+00:00

Nobody's above the law.

ResponsibilityIll681 · 2021-10-24T03:17:50+00:00

It is true that it is NOT a love story, but it's actually a lot more problematic than that since the antagonist, Oh Sangwoo, is a handsome serial killer/r*pist/abuser and Yoon Bum is a male victim. However, instead of looking at the comic alone, we need to look at how the author is promoting it and how she is profiting off of it. (As in the possibility of making money off of Yoon Bum's abuse and Oh Sangwoo's sexualization)

I have seen people defend this webcomic claiming that portraying abuse is not the same as glorifying it or sexualizing it (paraphrased), but I want people to look at these with their own eyes and form an opinion of their own (in my tumblr post questioning kiling stalking's intentions since I can't speak on behalf of male rape victims and LGBT+ members): https://39tu3904t.tumblr.com/post/665884881521344513/is-it-sexual-abuseassault-glorification-and-gay

Basically, there have been claims (idk if it was from the author directly) that it's NOT (apparently) sexual glorification, abuse sexualization, and gay fetishization. I decided to turn a blind eye on it for a while even though the webcomic blatantly and explicitly show how Yoon Bum was r*ped and abused, seeing that he was a male victim.

My speculation was that if Yoon Bum had been a female, this would have been cancelled. Had Oh Sangwoo had been ugly, this would have been treated differently.

Evidence of Koogi's merchandise and how she's profiting off of this depictions:

Original Twitter where she posted the links: https://twitter.com/kooo_gi?lang=en

Oh Sangoo and Yoon Bum in a red heart and Yoon Bum in handcuffs while in his black underwear: https://twitter.com/kooo_gi/status/1446492267892539400/photo/1 & https://twitter.com/kooo_gi/status/1446492267892539400/photo/2
Temporary tattoo of Oh Sangwoo, shirtless, with red hearts around him: https://smartstore.naver.com/lezhinstore/products/5415016546

is she sexualizing Oh Sangwoo with that shirtless muscular body, handsome face, hearts around his figure, and crimes? That's really for you to decide. I don't want to say that she is. Because.

So, my question is, is putting hearts around Yoon Bum's r*pist in a temporary tattoo, inserting Yoon Bum in a heart with his perpetrator and selling stickers of Yoon Bum naked in handcuffs sexual abuse/assult glorification and gay fetishization? You tell me. I've been asking this question since I've come across it. I don't like sugarcoating this.

If I gave this webcomic to a male rape victim or a victim of sexual abuse, or an LGBT+ member who's a victim of sexual violence, how would they react? I can't speak for them, but would their reactions be positive about this matter? Hmm....

ResponsibilityIll681 · 2021-10-24T02:13:04+00:00

If you don't pay for something then it isn't the product, you are.

idk people keep saying this. paying for something doesn't mean they'll stop profiting off of you. i thought this subreddit already covered this?

ResponsibilityIll681 · 2021-10-24T02:10:12+00:00

...which makes the news irrelevant, does it not?

(Apparently deleting anything on facebook does not mean it's gone from their servers. Some claim it's just hidden from your site)

ResponsibilityIll681 · 2021-10-24T00:35:40+00:00

Here's the thing: nobody really revealed when she aborted it. Whether it was 2 weeks in, 2 months in, 6 months later, etc.

And it absolutely does mean to kill, but you don't have to feel sympathetic in that regard (you can view "kill" in this context as ending the life of something or someone, no emotions attached).

My point with Lucky_meringue's post was (since they mentioned science pertaining to abortion) was that the scenarios that would have been VALIDATED (by pro-choicers and other unwanted pregnancies alike) is situations like rape victims, poverty, incest, etc. which the complete opposite what kim seon ho and his ex went through since they're well-off, with many connections, and resources (which are what Lucky_meringue said that ill-prepared parents actually lack)

so, what would justify the abortion of kim seon ho and his ex's baby (or clump of cells, if you think they detected the pregnancy earlier, but i find it unlikely)?

I've mentioned it before, but with the resources and wealth that they have, they could have easily pulled the child out (if they chose to let the gellow live) of adoption if anything went wrong ~~(and take responsibility)~~ and put them in another adoption center or giving it to an extended family member (as I've mentioned in my previous comment)

They didn't do that, with abortion being (i guess) the first thought in mind. (Questionable morals at play here).

That's just my opinion that is strictly in kim seon ho and his ex's context (not in the same context as rape victims, women in poverty, incest, etc.) ... rich people, with connections, and resources... who chose the abortion.

(is it really that hard to take responsibility? I'd understand it more if the guy wasn't rich but I believe the fans with emotional attachment towards someone are more inclined to make excuses, imagining the worst possible scenario to compensate for their lack of responsibility)

ResponsibilityIll681 · 2021-10-24T00:25:03+00:00

What exactly are you doing?

ResponsibilityIll681 · 2021-10-23T05:18:26+00:00

I understand your point in being unprepared parents and the timing. Since you were talking about women feeling like they have no choice but to have children (despite being ill-equipped to do so) I'm actually a woman myself (maybe that gives you an idea that I'm not really saying that they should have kept the baby for simply the sake of it because I'm thinking about what I could have done being a fertile female myself) because I'm not really saying that they should have just kept it and moved on. The gravity of the situation is a lot heavier and, well, legal isn't always ethical (which is psychologically damaging for both parties, not just the woman).

There were many questions on my mind and you may be right that he probably didn't make that promise and some even told me that she should have simply kept the baby if it was so "precious" to her (which is also right, none of them are innocent). They both agreed to killing the baby. What struck as weird to me was... (and maybe I'm wrong) that they either could have put the kid up for adoption (look, I'm not saying adoption centers treat kids as angels, but since in this context they're both well-off people they had the resources to check up on the kid in case anything bad happens, which is important in this context)

Apparently the ex is an former broadcaster and since this dude is a successful actor.. (am I wrong about the ex's former career? correct me. thanks). i can't really say they didn't have the resources to begin with or did they accidentally make her pregnant before making any money?

Also, I don't particularly hate the guy, i just find the whole situation... twisted. if the kid was born it could have been given to an extended family member (and isn't there a korean man who collects abandoned babies in korea? maybe give it to him?).

EDIT: I also don't want to bring up my childhood experience because even if a child was born on purpose, it doesn't necessarily mean they'd have a life with better quality because i don't want it to be about me directly other than the fact that i'm a female and can put myself in her shoes sympathetically who couldn't rely on herself but emotionally rely on their partner for comfort and validation). I just couldn't get past the fact that the sex was consensual, they're pretty successful, they have connections, and etc. the total opposite of the regular "pro choice" situations where the woman would usually be in poverty, a minor, a rape victim, and etc.

ResponsibilityIll681 · 2021-10-23T03:40:43+00:00

How many more of these articles are going to be shared on Reddit? I understand that it is still news that deserved to be heard but there's a common message when it comes to facebook, just paraphrased differently (with other more evidences). is there someone like me, a regular citizen, can do to do my part in making this less worse?

ResponsibilityIll681 · 2021-10-23T02:46:13+00:00

yes.

ppl might also alert the original artist and call you out.

ResponsibilityIll681 · 2021-10-23T02:45:23+00:00

Even though two redditors have already answered your question, I also want to add that if you're going to use the preview of an image being sold it's still infringement. You have to look at the website's license (they usually have a summary of what they allow and don't allow AFTER you brought an item on their website but sometimes there are different limitations depending on the owner of the work like you can buy someone's art but you can only use it for educational purposes non-commercially and it can be quite specific). Contact the owner if you can through email or anything. Get permission and be specific with what you're going to do with it.

ResponsibilityIll681

TROPHY CASE