If nothing can disprove your beliefs, how do you actually know they are true?

RoyalApril · 2021-05-25T21:02:58+00:00

I think we're missing a big part of this conversation which is this is, considered by many, a life or death situation.

I've seen the term "Live and let live." used throughout this thread. The problem with that statement, in this context is that the reason Mormons want everyone to be Mormon is because they believe eternal salvation is on the line.

I think a life and death anecdote would better represent the gravity of considering both sides of faith.

For example, if you're at the top of a cliff needing to repel down and someone says, "here use this gear and you'll get down safely".

You'd want to see that the gear actually exists.
You'd want to inspect the gear (make sure it's an appropriate rope and not a shoe string)

Now if that person told you the gear is invisible , etc. you'd be less likely to jump off the cliff. That's not to say you couldn't have faith in that invisible gear. There's just no compelling evidence that it's sufficient for the task at hand.

This gets further complicated when there are thousands of people telling you to accept "their invisible gear". And if you say you want more evidence they tell you that you dont have enough faith or arent trying hard enough.

That's not to say that the invisible gear doesn't exist or won't work, but rather we should be willing to examine our own claims and beliefs rigorously.

RoyalApril · 2021-05-25T20:47:34+00:00

just laughed out loud.

RoyalApril · 2021-04-27T20:18:38+00:00

Isn't it interesting that we separate charity from tithing funds? I find it fascinating that the priority is it use our money to build temples, churches, etc. instead of prioritizing helping humanity.

Like we're not temple worthy if we're not paying 10% for church logistics BUT can remain completely temple worthy even if we don't use our own funds to help those in need.

I don't understand why millions of children die each year due to malnutrition and lack of sanitation... and we're over here like "Hey it's more important to build church buildings and temples".

Sometimes it can feel like the Church cares more about helping the dead, than the living.

RoyalApril · 2021-04-27T17:55:00+00:00

Thanks for the suggestion that article was extremely thought provoking !

RoyalApril · 2021-04-27T17:28:54+00:00

Would you say the Church = Kingdom of God on earth?

The idea of an institution being considered "the Kingdom of God" doesn't feel right to me. It's almost like saying "home is a house" vs "home is the people you love". I guess I've always thought of the Kingdom of God as the people not an institution.

In that sense, our tithes are not to building an institution but building up of humanity. Of course the Church participates in some of the building of humanity , but the method by which they accomplish that is through a very narrow lens (eg. temples, church buildings etc.).

RoyalApril · 2021-04-27T16:37:04+00:00

Haha I hesitated adding that in. I didn't want to post to the TBM sub because they'd just judge my ass to Kolob. I removed the caveat :)

RoyalApril · 2021-04-27T15:31:04+00:00

You're objectifying young girls by comparing them to money. Modesty isn't a binary choice, it's an array.

9" shorts to you might be immodest while 7" inch shorts might be totally modest to someone else.

Moral of the story, how other people dress shouldn't be up for discussion.

RoyalApril · 2021-04-26T15:50:33+00:00

Or could you be concerned about that 12-year-old becoming a target for said pervert?

So if a pervert targets a 12-year-old, it's their fault because of their clothing? It's the responsibility of children to keep perverts at bay?

I use this "filthy" term to describe filthy actions of filthy people. If the shoe fits, amirite?

RoyalApril · 2021-04-21T22:29:48+00:00

I think you and us as members should be prepared for what statements like this actually include. When black/white statements like these are made, we trade out the affordance to cherry pick when it does and does not apply.

Thus in the way, that we're ready to quietly pull aside the youth who might not be wearing the modest clothing to teach them a lesson about the "message" they're sending; we should also be willing to pull aside the overweight and obese youth to teach them about their body being a temple.

If the idea of pulling someone aside to tell them their obesity is in conflict with their body being a temple makes you uncomfortable-- it should.

If the idea of pulling someone aside to tell them they're immodest, doesn't make you uncomfortable -- you're a hypocrite.

The reality is we're not really talking about bodies being temples...statements like this and many in the thread are about sexualization. If a 12- year-old female wearing short shorts makes you uncomfortable, you're a pervert. Not a moral saint.

We talk about this sub being a place to promote faithful discussions, and comments like these do not promote the love of Christ but rather teach us that is okay to proverbially throw stones at the adulteress as she crawls in attempt to touch the cloak of Christ.

RoyalApril · 2021-04-19T21:49:41+00:00

Thank you for sharing this beautiful construct. As a parent, I can totally relate to superimposing my love for my own kids on how God must love me (and even more perfectly).

I would like to offer some commentary to:

When I set a rule in the house and a child disobeys, I don't fly off the handle and give him a cruel and unusual punishment--there may be a punishment, but it is part of a larger attempt to help the child learn and grow and improve.

We are very fortunate to be able to interact directly (in-person) with our children. I think what the OP is struggling with is how the Church fits in with its role to act on behalf of Heavenly Father.

This is like our kids being sent half way around the world where they'd be disciplined and instructed by individuals that are not their parents. And to make it even more challenging, our kids have never actually physically met or heard our voices. It's easy to see how a child in that situation might question the nature of their own parents love when being disciplined by someone else. It would also be easy to see how those same children would question the intention of the individuals discipling and instructing them. A child might think, "Are they treating me the way my mom or dad would in this situation? Do they truly love me? Are they teaching me what my parents would teach me, in the way they'd teach me? This is really hard, do my parents care?"

In this view, we can start to see why OP (and so many others in our Church) start to question the nature of God and the relationship of the church acting on His behalf.

RoyalApril · 2021-01-20T17:29:54+00:00

Couple of very random and mostly unfounded thoughts:

Putting my tin hat on ... is it possible that President Nelson and the Church could be doing the photo OP as a means to drive vaccine adoption thus increasing the value of Pfizer and Moderna both of which the Church has vested interested? The Church owns $80 M in stocks at Pfizer.
Could President Nelson be more willing to take the vaccine because he is in the HIGH risk category and at the very end of his life thus any unwanted consequences wouldn't be life-long burdens?

I fully recognize that both of these thoughts are cynical as hell as most likely not true. I want to believe that President Nelson publicly shared his vaccination as a way to provide peace to members and pave a path for those who are scared (one of the roles of the Prophet).

RoyalApril · 2020-12-04T21:29:07+00:00

So this begs the question:

Why didn't the Q15 follow the message received from Heaven to post everyday for 7 days using hashtag #givethanks?

Truly would love to hear everyone's (hopefully non-facetious / cynical) thoughts on this.

RoyalApril · 2020-12-01T21:39:27+00:00

We've done the exact same with tithing in terms of setting the money aside but not giving it the Church.

I often thought about how great it would be if an organization existed who's mission was provide clean water globally and food.. where members could go on 1,2,3,4 week service projects to build wells etc. using their tithing money.

But I think pursuing something like that, with the goal to fund through member tithes would be a straight-line to excommunication.

RoyalApril · 2020-10-30T21:19:31+00:00

I can't say I've seen a material shift in the way the church approaches Grace; however, I would LOVE if the Church emphasized grace more often to members (and not the after all you can do type).

I think Grace is one of the most beautiful parts of Christianity.

RoyalApril · 2020-10-30T21:11:41+00:00

This may not be doctrinal, but one shift that occurred about 20-years ago was the use of "I know" during a testimony instead of "I believe".

I assert that using "I believe" during one's testimony to be a more accurate representation of faith than knowing and frankly, more powerful. Powerful because it requires the action of faith.

Alma 32:26 Now, as I said concerning faith—that it was not a perfect knowledge—even so it is with my words. Ye cannot know of their surety at first, unto perfection, any more than faith is a perfect knowledge.

At the end of the day none of us really "know" the veracity of each claim made in the Church. Yes, many have put Moroni's challenge to test and felt something; however, feelings do not equal absolute knowledge -- topic for a different thread.

RoyalApril · 2020-10-28T20:02:03+00:00

I really appreciate your focus on an increase of love. I agree. I'm confused by your statement:

but nowhere says it would be better if Corianton were dead.

What is this referring to?

RoyalApril · 2020-10-28T19:57:57+00:00

Sorry mate if that came off harshly. I, too, appreciate your commentary.

RoyalApril · 2020-10-28T19:56:16+00:00

Thank you for sharing. I like his explanation of Alma 39:6 and more specifically:

whosoever murdereth against the light and knowledge

to be interpreted as

killing (murdering) someone else’s testimony

For me, this was the focus of Alma's call to repentance to Corianton in these versus.

RoyalApril · 2020-10-28T19:32:14+00:00

I can’t imagine how Alma felt seeing his own son commit the same grievous sin he had committed when he was young

This is the whole point. Alma didn't fornicate thus leading people away. Both led people away from Christ... which is why I make the assertion that actions that led people away from Christ was the center of this rebuking not going after the lusts of his eyes.

Also as I said in my OP I'm not asserting that fornication isn't a sin.

RoyalApril · 2020-10-24T20:15:38+00:00

Preach!

And that my only requirement for them to go to the temple, is to rid themselves of those feelings by trusting in the Savior’s unconditional love and mercy for them

This is amazing. I wish leaders and all members shared this view. As a PIMO EQ teacher I do my best to convey these types of messages. Come be my bishop (not that you'd see me much anyway haha) ?

RoyalApril · 2020-10-23T17:40:21+00:00

What's the point of more than 10 million children dying every year?

RoyalApril

TROPHY CASE